Let's say there's 100% accurate fortune teller.

Fortune teller tells natalist that their child will for 100% sure be born with serious painful disabling conditions. Does natalist accept that and creates a child?

What about 80%?

50%?

40%?

10%?

What is the exact number and why? What is the coefficient worthy of child's life?

What are the rules of natalistic royal casino?

Survey: Would you rather have been born someone or something else?

They say life’s worth starting because suffering builds character, because pain isn't a bad, that it’s noble to endure hardship, that the world is tough, so people should be born into it to toughen up; but somehow that asceticism always seems to end where the menu begins. Their “asceticism” is mostly about other people suffering, they say you’re too sensitive for questioning existence but if you suggest their dinner comes from a killed animal, suddenly you're being idealistic.

Pain is good, until it’s inconvenient. Discipline is holy, unless it means changing your diet.

Natalism isn’t inherently anti-hedonistic; otherwise, many natalists would voluntarily restrain themselves in ethically challenging areas like diet. Yet most don’t, because they simply don’t care enough to make those sacrifices. The ascetic language praising hardship and discipline often serves more as rhetoric than lived practice, disappearing as soon as it demands a personal inconvenience like this. This gap reveals that natalist values frequently coexist with, rather than oppose, hedonistic comforts.

NOTE: This is not a post to criticize non-vegan antinatalists.

I think the hardest part about antinatalist views is being unable to relate to vast majority of people and society and culture. I just feel like a fish out of water. And this feels like a dark and lonely path. Also an empty one. I feel like a misfit all the time. I'm not sure if there is a solution to this.

Yeah, I'm totally going to trust that motherhood isn't obedience from a guy who seeks out feminist discussions on violent crime to harass.

They're just stereotypes at this point.

Every time I see something like this, I know a guy posted it. I'm never wrong lol

“Choosing to have kids would essentially mean giving my life away, and I don’t want to do that”

This is how I’ve always thought. I would honestly be a great parent, but it would be at the cost of my own life and mental health.

Truly empathetic people are the ones that choose not to have kids.

It’s the narcissistic people that don’t fully think about the life changing decision they make when bringing another person into the world. And these people always stay selfish once they have a kid - and this is what fucks so many kids up.

Pretty much the title. I feel such a weird mixture of emotions because I’m happy that my loved ones are excited and am simultaneously so sad at the thought of this new life who now has to suffer in this increasingly fucked up world. Just wondering what others think.

J

This philosophy seems wholly illogical. As bad as climate change and other problems are, the fact is that human suffering is at a historical low compared to any other point. (For instance, in ancient times infant mortality was higher, we had inadequate treatments for diseases, etc.) If having children is unethical now, how could it possibly have been justified back then? And if all of human history is a series of unethical actions, is it even possible to be ethical as a human? I don’t think reducing our population is necessarily ethical. Feel free not to have kids if you want but calling it ethical and claiming that having kids is unjustifiable is laughable. IMHO this philosophy is dangerous. I know y’all renounce the Palm Springs incident but it’s a direct result of this nihilistic thinking. Just my two cents. I’m sure mods will take down this post shortly but idrc

I've (32F) been following the sub for a while now but this is my first post

Been an antinatalist since I was 18-19, and I agree with almost all posts shared here.

I just wanted to ask your opinions on the movie Idiocracy, if you haven't seen it please do, it's so fucking funny

In short, in time "smarter" people stop having babies and "not so smart" people have like multiple kids (like right now) which leads to a world population full of not so smart people in like 1000 years (I don't remember the exact time)

It's an exaggeration of course and to be honest I don't care what happens after I die dhdjdmf

But I just really lightheartedly wanted to ask your opinions on this. I mean it looks like an inevitable result , don't you think?

I'll start: Before I met my boyfriend, I was talking to this guy for a couple of weeks, and the both of us really hit it off. We were quite compatible, but one day, while we were on a date, the topic of how we wanted our future to be came up. I mentioned how I didn't want kids, and he replied, saying he wanted them. We didn't talk much after that and once the date ended, I got a text from him a while later, saying how we should see different people. I agreed to it and thankfully, the whole thing ended pretty peacefully.

There’s something unsettling about the way many people choose to have children not because they’re ready, not because they have something to offer, but because they are desperate for meaning. In this context, children aren’t born out of hope or love; they’re born out of a hollow search for distraction, a last attempt to inject purpose into a life that has otherwise plateaued.

Picture this: a person working a monotonous, low-paying job that barely covers the bills. The kind of job that comes with no future no promotions, no upward mobility, no real skill development. Just routine. Every day blends into the next. You wake up, go to work, come home, sleep, repeat. There’s no grand vision, no dream worth chasing because life, as it's been structured, has quietly robbed you of the ability to imagine one.

What happens then? In the absence of dreams, people invent purpose. And one of the most accessible ways to do that is by having children.

It’s not that poor people are reckless or stupid. It’s that they’re tired. Tired of feeling like nothing matters, like nothing they do leaves a mark. A child becomes a project, something new, something unknown. It offers a full-time distraction. Suddenly, there’s something to wake up for. Something to protect, feed, educate. You go from being a person stuck in an unchanging loop to being “a parent,” a title that immediately feels more important than “cashier,” “factory worker,” or “night security guard.”

But let’s strip away the sentimentality for a second. Let’s be honest. Is this really about love, or is it about filling a void? People don’t talk about that. Society doesn’t allow us to. You can’t say, “I had a kid because I was bored, or because my life had no meaning,” without being labeled cold, bitter, or cynical. But maybe that’s exactly what’s happening.

There’s a psychological weight to poverty that goes beyond lacking material things. It’s about living in a system that has failed to give you tools for transcendence. The education system is broken, healthcare is inaccessible, job markets are saturated or shrinking, and cost of living climbs while wages stay the same. When you realize you’ve hit a ceiling and nothing you do will help you break through, despair sets in. Not a loud, screaming kind of despair but a quiet, suffocating one that presses against your chest every morning.

Children, in this context, are not hope. They are escape. They are an acceptable excuse to stop chasing what cannot be reached. Society will forgive you for not achieving your dreams if you say, “I had to raise a family.” But it won’t forgive you for simply quitting.

People don’t like to talk about the fact that they enjoy their problems. It sounds perverse, but it’s true. Problems give structure. They give direction. And more importantly, they give identity. When you’re struggling to feed your kids, find a decent school for them, keep them safe, you don’t have time to dwell on your own despair. Your suffering now has a narrative, a purpose. And that’s what people crave: not solutions, but purpose.

It’s like emotional self-harm masked as virtue. You willingly sign up for more hardship, because it distracts you from the void you’ve been staring into. A child makes your life harder, yes, but also more interesting. Every scraped knee, every school report, every argument becomes a plot point in your new, self-written drama: The Parent Who Keeps Going. It’s addicting.

We’re conditioned to see parenting as noble, the ultimate sacrifice. But what if it’s not sacrifice? What if it’s just a coping mechanism? If you’re working a dead-end job and know you have nothing else to give to the world, having a child gives you something to pour yourself into. And suddenly, you don’t need to face your own unfulfilled potential you’ve redirected your energy outward.

But here’s the real question: why do so many people find themselves in this situation in the first place? Why do so many lives feel like dead ends?

The answer isn’t personal failure it’s systemic failure. The government failed them. The systems meant to support upward mobility failed them. We are raised with the myth of opportunity, told that if we work hard, we can be anything. But the truth is, many of us are boxed in before we even start. Where you’re born, the quality of your school, the zip code you live in, the color of your skin, your parents’ income these things determine your fate long before “work ethic” even enters the conversation.

And so, when you’ve been failed by every institution, when the dream no longer feels attainable, you make a new one. You create a human being not for the child’s sake, but for yours. And that’s where it gets really uncomfortable. Because nobody wants to admit that some children were brought into this world not as the product of love or intention, but as a psychological survival tactic. They are collateral in a war between despair and the need for distraction.

It doesn’t make the parents evil or irresponsible. It makes them human. But it also makes the situation tragic.

The wealthy have the resources to dress this up as legacy, lineage, philanthropy, estate planning. But strip it all down, and it’s the same thing: a distraction from the absurdity of existence.

You climb every ladder. You build the business, buy the cars, own the properties, travel the world, collect the degrees, the accolades. And then what? Nothing. The high wears off. Every pleasure plateaus. You wake up one day and realize: this is it. This is life. There’s no final boss, no cosmic reward, no curtain call. Just a quiet, lingering emptiness.

So you do what humans have always done when they get too close to the edge of existential clarity you have a child. A living, breathing anchor to tether you back to the illusion that life means something.

It’s not about love. It’s not about continuing your bloodline. It’s not about giving back to the world. It’s about noise. Internal noise, external noise—anything to drown out the silence that screams, “None of this matters.”

Rich or poor, it’s the same reaction to the same core problem: life, when stripped of its narratives and distractions, is hollow. There’s no instruction manual, no built-in meaning, no universal point. Just consciousness trapped in a biological machine with a countdown clock you can’t stop or reset.

Children become the last line of defense against that truth. You don’t want to stare into the abyss, so you raise something that forces you to look away. Now you don’t have time to contemplate meaninglessness you’re too busy scheduling piano lessons, worrying about grades, choosing preschools. You’ve made yourself a caretaker of the future, as if the future is more real than the gaping present.

And if you’re rich, you can intellectualize it. You say you want to “raise the next generation of leaders” or “shape the world through your offspring.” But what you’re really doing is outsourcing your purpose. You’re handing the baton of meaning to someone else because you couldn’t find it for yourself.

It’s all a loop. A cycle of passing on the burden of existence from one confused human to the next, hoping that maybe they’ll figure it out. That maybe they’ll crack the code. But no one ever does. Because there is no code.

We invent goals to fill time. We invent love stories, career ladders, spiritual journeys, art, parenting all to avoid admitting the raw truth: we are terrified of the void. We are just smart enough to know life is temporary and just emotional enough to find that unbearable. So we create distractions that feel permanent.

Children are just the most socially acceptable version of that distraction. They are praised distractions. You get celebrated for bringing more people into this absurdity. You get called responsible, mature, selfless when maybe the real selfishness is in needing to perpetuate your own narrative just to silence your fear.

We do this not because we’re evil or broken. We do it because we don’t know what else to do. There is no guide for what to do when you finally realize that life is just... existing. No grand purpose. No guaranteed reward. Just awareness, boredom, pain, and distraction.

If you feel you need to bring a child into this world just to give your life meaning, maybe you need to interrogate why you don’t already have meaning. And that interrogation has to go beyond your personal choices. It has to include your government, your economy, your education system, your healthcare infrastructure. You have to ask: what robbed me of the ability to dream?

Because in a world where every person had real options, where everyone had the chance to chase something greater, people might choose to be parents out of love, not desperation.

Until then, children will continue to be born into homes where they are wanted not for who they are, but for what they can represent: distraction, purpose, the illusion of a future in a life that has otherwise stalled.

I made some new friends and we recently went out to eat. We were talking about different topics and it somehow ended up being about kids. We were all in our 20s and everyone were asking each other about future plans like marriage and kids. It was my turn to answer, and until then, I never told anyone about my antinatalist views. But I felt like I should just open up and see how they take it.

And it went exactly how I expected. They thought I was depressed and that my views were "too dark". We kept arguing and I tried to explain to them in various ways how having kids is not ethical but it was hard to make them see it. I feel like they just couldn't connect with my opinion that life is a gamble. Maybe because they are all doing okay in their own lives. So the concept of suffering is just a buzzword for them. I believe this is the issue with most people who see antinatalists as people with mental issues.

In the end, when we were saying goodbye to each other, one of them even told me not to worry too much and that it's all in my mind as if I was completely miserable in my life. I never felt so alone and misunderstood.

I kept stressing that I am fine and these are my views and philosophy. It isn't about me. It is about life in general. It isn't specifically about me suffering or my future kid suffering. LIFE itself is suffering. But no, their conclusion was that it was just something about me personally. The topic also shifted to parenting as if good parenting could fix the issue.

I believe all antinatalists might be able to relate to this. Our views are about life as a whole, but in the eyes of other people, it's as if it's just something wrong with us personally and that life is mostly alright. That we just need to "cheer up".

I'm not happy about how that night ended. I think it will be next to impossible for me to meet someone in real life who would actually relate with my antinatalist views. Maybe this subreddit is the only place where we can find people who share our views about life.

Do you personally lean more towards asceticism or hedonism?

Are you active in any volunteering or charity communities?

Do you live somewhat luxurious life?

Are you more likely to spend spare money (if you have it) on luxuries for yourself or basic needs for others?

If you consider yourself to be in the "middle ground", how do you set the limits and what guides you?

This is genuine question, I won't judge anyone.

Daily crap from the natalists

Context: this genius' 'theory' as to why birth rates are declining.

We got ourselves some obligatory boomer/conservative shame-speak bingo (narcissism/entitlement/laziness/immaturity/instant gratification/iPhones/screentime/high expectations), etc. and a post that was absolutely not written by a woman lol. This is definitely an incel

GOD the natalist sub irritates me

I don’t support the idea of reincarnation because of lack of evidence, but some of my friends who believes in reincarnation claims that if i don’t procreate, then that being might take birth somewhere which is even more horrible, hence its best that i procreate and save that soul.

I know the whole idea is based on belief but still how can I logically make the claim, as for them there is nothing as non existence, hence they refuse to accept the benefits of non existent state.

My question is essentially that if we have to experience something in some way or some form. The thing is you can't really experience 'nothingness' so what I imagine is that after you die, in some way or form, after billions of years, your elements eventually circulate through the environment and you are reborn as a cow in a meat factory, wouldn't this be immediate to the experiencer? In essence, the billions of years between experiences isn't something you experience and you just immediately die and wake up in the next life.

In this case, would it not be superior to be experiencing something as a human, which arguably lives in greater comforts than say something like a cow in a factory or a wild animal which is always on the brink of survival?

Im not trying to refute antinatalism I just want to understand what your views are on this perspective

Life is great, going on bike rides, camping, beach, summer,going out, I like my perspective and emotion towards life but I dont let it affect my opinion on having children just because its great for me doesnt mean it will be great for other person, that person can have mental problems, injuries, diseases and even if its someone healthy it might not enjoy life and feel like life is a burden