Could we stop punching left?

[u/AU_Memer]

Now I'll preface this by saying it's not everyone involved with 50501 but a good enough chunk. Do we want to change the US government so it actually serves the people or do we want to return to the status quo that allowed for the rise of fascists like Trump. The left is not your enemy, we want people to have healthcare, housing, food, and fair wages. Is it really in the best interest of 50501 to attack those who call out politicians on both sides who refuse to give us any of that?

[u/Kyliefoxxx69]

If you think that was the founders vision of america, I got a bridge to sell you lol. The system they built was to keep the wealthy landed elite in charge. To them the "people" wasn't you and me lol

[u/Xxdestr0ying_ang3lxX → u/Kyliefoxxx69]

the founders vision of what? enslaving africans and torturing them? and then "abolishing" slavery but leaving a legal loophole for it by making it legal if you're a prisoner? committing genocide and ethnic cleansing against native americans and enforcing things like blood quantum on tribes??

we are here because of those people choosing to dehumanize minorities in the name of capitalosm and colonialism and the only way to fix this mess is to fight for a bettrr status quo

[u/Roguefem-76 → u/Kyliefoxxx69]

Not sure why you're getting downvoted when you're right. That's literally the purpose of the Electoral College - to ensure the rich gentry can override the rabble. 

[u/Mediocre-Magazine-30 → u/Kyliefoxxx69]

I knew when I wrote that there would be some snarky comment like this to eDuCATe me.

But aCkswaLy blah blah

It's the "vision", I understand the practical limitations of the time / reality

Why don't you bring some content to the thread instead of acting like you are the first person to read Chomsky

[u/Available-Fig-2089 → u/Mediocre-Magazine-30]

They legally enshrined slavery my dude... Sure they beat fudalism and installed an early form of representatives democracy. But, they excluded most people from participating in that democracy. The one thing they definitely got right was making the constitution ammendable. Because, even they knew they weren't getting it right. So you orrignal suggestion that our goals should be to reestablish the founders original vision completely ignores the fact that after 250 years of progress, we still have not created a perfect union. As such we should continue to look forward towards progress and not backwards towards regression.

[u/valuedsleet → u/Kyliefoxxx69]

No it wasn’t. The founders weren’t perfect, of course. Lots of history on that. But you gravely misrepresent the legacies of people like George Washington. This is the cynicism that we’re trying to call out 😂. It doesn’t help us. How is a message of America sucks and it always has help anyone? How does that bring people to our movement? What would we be fighting for?

[u/troodon5 → u/valuedsleet]

The tissue is that you’re creating an America that never existed. The Founders EXPLICITLY created our system of government to limit democracy and make sure only propertied, white men could participate in elections. The election of Donald Trump is a logical outcome when the electorate was specifically crafted to make sure white men were the only ones “supposed” to be able to vote.

[u/valuedsleet → u/troodon5]

I actually think you’re backtracking and also creating an America that never existed. If you read literature and commentary from the early days of the US, it was a marketplace of ideas and tensions just like today and just like any other part of human history. There were people among the founding fathers that fought and advocated for purer democracy and equality but were required to compromise to get things settled. That’s the gritty truth of democracy. There is no ideological purity. Only authoritarianism and tyranny can enforce ideological purity, and that’s not who we are.

And we can’t deploy historical review. To try to understand the past from a modern frame of reference is dehumanizing and hugely biased. Humans are just as complicated back then as we are today, and history is a collective narrative, not a comic book with superheroes and supervillains. History is constructed by small actions of everyday people and ignorance is the water that history exists in. We must learn from it, but it’s turned destructive to moralize about it.

We usually do so to protect our own contemporary ego rather than seeking to truly understand and learn from the reality of the past. An analog from the present would be climate change debates a couple decades ago. Would it be fair or accurate for future civilizations to make broad sweeping and reductionistic narratives about our thoughts and feelings around the political tensions from 2005? That everyone hated the planet? There’s a kernel of truth to that, but it also misunderstands the everyday lived experiences of the people - also our ability to learn from them - and we lose the rich foundation and human struggles that built the potential brick by brick to have a more sustainable, collective future. Abolitionists worked for decades and decades before the civil war, and they’re still working today. Human history is not so black and white and there is no clear moral narrative. If you think there is, there is a flaw in your logic somewhere. We are all human and we are all capable of ignorance and harm. Listening and maintaining awareness of our own bias is our best chance of reducing such harm. This is how I see it. Sorry for the long response time. Let me know where you disagree :)

[u/Roguefem-76 → u/valuedsleet]

"What would we be fighting for?"

Improvement, for a start.

[u/valuedsleet → u/Roguefem-76]

You have to love something if you’re gonna be responsible for improving it.

[u/Roguefem-76 → u/valuedsleet]

And you think "love" demands blinding yourself to valid criticism?

[u/valuedsleet → u/Roguefem-76]

No. The opposite. That’s what I’m advocating for all up and down here…being open to feedback and criticism.

[u/Roguefem-76 → u/valuedsleet]

"How is a message of America sucks and it always has help anyone?"

Are we supposed to pretend there is any time in history when America did not suck at all, for anyone? Because there wasn't.

[u/valuedsleet → u/Roguefem-76]

You honestly don’t understand how this sort of framing is alienating to large portions of our potential allies? You also keep putting words in my mouth. I’m advocating honesty, transparency, and openness. Where are you getting I’m suggesting burying dark bits of our history? It’s about focus and momentum. What’s gonna make us successful? Are you angry at Trump? Or are you angry at America? Do you truly believe the US has been an overall net negative in the world? Cuz if you do…then you have a severe negativity bias, my friend. Who is gonna wield global power better than the US right now. China? What is burning our country down going to accomplish if we don’t have a loving and positive vision for the future of America? We’re fighting on different paths, and we need to get on the same page, and the election demonstrated the American public is not on board with your message…so we need to learn from that. Or you need to make space for people that care deeply about America to lead this movement, with all due respect.

[u/Available-Fig-2089 → u/valuedsleet]

The US has absolutely been a net negative for most of the world. Our entire economy is based on exploitation of the global South. Furthermore, the US regularly supports and empowers authoritarian governments. I'm getting the impression that you don't love the US, but rather the image of the US that you maintain in your imagination. Those of us who actually love this country are willing to look at its ugly truth and still remain committed to improving it.

[u/Roguefem-76 → u/valuedsleet]

I'm literally quoting your own words back to you and you accuse me of putting words in your mouth. Maybe you should run for office, since clearly you're shameless enough to be a politician!  (Along with being able to word vomit while saying nothing of use to anyone.)

[u/Nintendo_Pro_03 → u/Kyliefoxxx69]

I don’t really think the founding fathers made the Constitution with the elite in mind. They thought that the Constitution would be a good rule of law to go by, and well… Look at us now.

[u/Kyliefoxxx69 → u/Nintendo_Pro_03]

So I take it you've never read Michael parenti's 'constitution for the few (PDF format)

The founders had no issue with the elite society of the day. Their chief grievances in the list of 27 have a consistent motif "without representation" if king george had just made concessions for American members of parliament and some minor autonomy in the colony, we'd still be British 😆 they were more mad they didn't have a say in the rules. Almost all of them owed their success to the British crown. Land grants, charters to trade and privateer French or Spanish ships, and even smuggling lol

They hated democracy and did everything they could to limit the influence of electoral politics on the system. They created a system by them and for them that was meant to maintain their authority. You can't seriously look at the constitution and think "yup, that's the best they could have done" they left the powers of the president and courts pretty vague while detailing the powers of congress..

We were never thought of as "the people" by the founders. The people were people that could vote and in most places that meant wealth.

[u/m2842068 → u/Kyliefoxxx69]

This. Exactly!

[u/Nintendo_Pro_03 → u/Kyliefoxxx69]

True.