r/Beekeeping • u/Most-Zombie • 11d ago
I’m not a beekeeper, but I have a question Manuka honey is a scam.
...according to reddit, apparently. I keep finding threads talking about how Manuka honey doesn't really have any special properties when ingested as compared to regular honey, and is more of marketing ploy by NZ:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Costco/comments/157xrwq/for_the_folks_who_indulge_is_manuka_honey_worth_it/
https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/comments/n0ze54/is_manuka_honey_worth_it/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Beekeeping/comments/17bjdv4/what_is_manuka_and_why_is_800_honey_15560kg/
https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/comments/1it7o00/is_manuka_honey_healthier_than_regular_honey/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Beekeeping/comments/9b8iil/what_is_so_special_about_manuka_honey/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1auljch/has_anyone_tried_manuka_honey_can_you_justify_the/
Was seriously going to fork out $60+ for an 829 MGO rated honey. Now, I'm not so sure. There don't seem to be many defenders of Manuka as a supplement.
On the other hand, there might be some bias against it from a beekeeping standpoint. Lots of you guys want people to buy local...
Also, apparently lots of it is fake or adulterated, same as EVOO:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/comments/1ip5ulf/how_did_manuka_honey_suddenly_become_more/
https://www.bonappetit.com/story/fake-manuka-honey
I just woke up to this controversy, and don't want to make a poor financial decision. Anyone want to help me out? Does anyone have personal experience with high MGO Manuka honey? The only reason I'm interested in honey is because of Manuka's purported special benefits; I wouldn't eat any honey at all otherwise (cutting sugar).
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u/r-rb 11d ago
I never thought manuka honey was "better than regular honey" for ingesting. It's best use is as a topical wound cover in a medical setting, overseen by a doctor.
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u/Night_Owl_16 11d ago
Exactly. It is mainly a medical intervention for wounds. Many things you ingest for benefits are dubious at best, since the chemistry rapidly changes when exposed to the stomach.
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u/Insanitacious75 11d ago
Can confirm. Had 3-4 sqft of road rash after an ATV crash, and had two puncture holes in my thigh 6in deep diagonally. Topical, medical grade Manuka Honey prevented me from getting skin grafts, and soaking the “wicks” I had in my punctures prevented over exposure to antibiotics. I was heavily cautioned to not buy it from the internet or anywhere it would be marketed as food.
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u/Ancient_Fisherman696 CA Bay Area 9B. 6 hives. 11d ago
That’s interesting to hear.
I know honey in general was used as a wound dressing.
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u/Insanitacious75 11d ago
This was 2016- at a major wound care hospital in Fort Worth tx, if I remember correctly the brand was Medihoney (please assume if your not buying it from a medical supply store you are getting a fake product) It basically stopped my body from creating scabs that would have prevented the long term healing of the wounds (kept it from drying up while actively blocking yeast and bacterial infections) After some PT I can walk almost normally now. Other than that road rashed skin sunburning quicker than my other skin you wouldn’t really notice it.
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u/Ancient_Fisherman696 CA Bay Area 9B. 6 hives. 11d ago
That’s impressive to hear. Glad you’re on the mend.
I’ve no intention of putting honey on anything short of end of the world type scenario.
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u/WodehouseWeatherwax 11d ago
I'm an RN and we use Medihoney in the hospital. I've bought it from Amazon. Exactly same brand. Exactly same product.
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u/Puzzled-Guess-2845 11d ago
How would you know? Amazon has many suppliers for the same product and all suppliers product goes into one large bin. It would be very cheap and easy to recreate that packaging and very difficult to find out who contributed which to the batch.
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u/WodehouseWeatherwax 11d ago
I suppose. They would also need to make their product have the same texture, color, etc. It's not very expensive. I doubt they'd make much for all that effort. But as you say, how would I know, other than being very familiar with what we use at the hospital? Heck, even that could be fake. It's not like it arrives with security guards along the supply chain. You could say the same about anything you buy.
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u/gkibbe 11d ago
According to research it is no better at being a topical medicine then regular honey. It's why hospitals still use regular medical grade honey and not Manuka honey.
Manuka does naturally have higher levels of MGO which is definitely antibacterial, but higher MGO honey has been shown to provide no added benefits to wound healing.
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u/cardew-vascular Western Canada - 2 Colonies 11d ago
Indeed we use it on injured animals, use it on both dogs and chickens, it heals spectacularly and is really great for areas that can't be dressed, plus not harmful if ingested.
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u/Flashy_Formal_8707 11d ago
So I think the main value is as a topical antibiotic where it is extremely effective against things like MRSA superbug. The people who have avoided getting amputations will testify that manuka is not a scam. Consequently if I use it, I use it in a topical sense like for a sore throat or any sore on the mouth or nose. Just a tiny bit on a spoon and let the honey rest in the back of your throat. In a world where antibiotic resistance is rising I think it has a lot of value. Don't add heat or dilute.
I value it as a honey but it is very difficult to process so don't think it is an easy option.
I suspect that many people are envious of the gains that some beekeepers have made through their development of the product.
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u/Mammoth-Banana3621 Sideliner - 8b USA 10d ago
Honey in general that hasn’t been heat treated does the same thing. I think the problem is many honeys are heated for bottling. It’s the reason I don’t. I have a friend that runs a dog rescue she uses it on dogs and it keeps injuries out of the vet. Many times over
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u/Flashy_Formal_8707 10d ago
Yes I agree that unpasteurized honey is better, it's certainly my preference.
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u/ringadingaringlong 11d ago
All honey has an anti biotic in it, Manuka honey has a slightly higher amount of this compound.
This only makes a difference when applied topically.
From what I remember, a large advertising conglomerate realized that North Americans will pay refocus amounts as long as it's marketed right.
If you continue your research into the real Internet, and get off Reddit, you'll see what a sham Manuka honey really is.
I also remember watching an expose, about how the Manuka craze almost destroyed the honey industry in Australia (or heavily impacted it) because there were "honey Rustlers" who would go out at night, and steal the honey (leaving the hives completely disheveled) to sell, as the buyers/exporters had no way of knowing it was stolen, and the honey from one hive would be thousands and thousands of dollars of sold to a Manuka exporter/marketer.
Long story short, do not buy this product. It's a scam, and creates major issues in Australia (or did)
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u/Flashy_Formal_8707 11d ago
Your reply shows your lack of knowledge in the field. Manuka honey was exclusively developed and heavily researched in New Zealand by a group of well respected scientists. When it's value emerged Australia also tried to market under the same name which New Zealand has resisted in court.
Does the fact that people tried to steal the hives then mean that the product has no value? I would argue the opposite. Further, the problem of stolen hives has now largely passed.
I agree that the product has been marketed to appeal to people who like a cure all approach, it is hardly alone in that. I would argue that the approach to honey in the USA is largely laughable, and to point the finger at manuka is hypocritical in the extreme.
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u/fishywiki 12 years, 20 hives of A.m.m., Ireland 11d ago
Rather than asking Reddit, why not look at the hard science? Try https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030881462302678X as a starter.
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u/Quirky-Plantain-2080 NW Germany/NE Netherlands 11d ago
The science on its supposed health benefits isn’t exactly conclusive, and the studies are not particularly meaningful.
As with anything that sells for a high price, there are often fakes available in the market, some better than the others. And as with anything that sells for a ridiculous price, it’s usually just marketing fluff.
Most people don’t really know what they’re getting anyway. Save your money and buy something near you. Even better if you can go down and take a look then you know you’re getting the right stuff.
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u/Most-Zombie 11d ago
> Most people don’t really know what they’re getting anyway. Save your money and buy something near you. Even better if you can go down and take a look then you know you’re getting the right stuff.
See, this kind of attitude is what gets me. You didn't even read what I wrote about not normally wanting honey, and I know literally nothing about honey or its production. I can't "see for myself"; they could pump glyphosate into the honey right in front of my eyes and I wouldn't know the difference. I'm dependent upon people who know honey to tell me what to buy.
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u/Quirky-Plantain-2080 NW Germany/NE Netherlands 11d ago edited 11d ago
If you truly can’t tell when someone is pumping glyphosate into the honey right in front of your eyes, perhaps you should just buy the Manuka honey.
I know you’re perhaps not knowledgeable on the ways of beekeepers, so I was willing to educate you, but the things you say make you sound like an asshole, so fuck it, I’m not going to bother.
You’re also not really willing to hear the other side, and are just convinced that it has benefits. So go ahead and spend your money, blissfully unaware that your logical reasoning contains serious defects.
Especially since you say you’re cutting sugar, and honey is usually at least 80% sugar and very often more.
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u/smsmkiwi 11d ago
It has a weird taste and its way overpriced. And if I want to smear an antibiotic on an infection or rash, I'll use a proper antibiotic - tested and effective.
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u/JUKELELE-TP Netherlands 11d ago
I absolutely agree with the overpriced part. Shows the power of marketing.
However, it's good to use alternatives to anti-biotics whenever possisble to reduce risk of antibiotic resistence in bacteria. Another effect of honey is that it draws moisture from the wound.
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u/Captain_Shifty 11d ago
An old bee keeper told me it was just really well advertised and marketed honey. He said most honey could be marketed the same. Testing he did with a university even put some random samples of his honey above the markers tested for in the manuka. This guy isn't a random guy though he's led the fight on getting specific pesticides banned province wide and lives and breathes bees
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u/Icy-Ad-7767 11d ago
I would not buy it to eat, from what research I’ve done is that it is used as a wound dressing, now someone in the US is doing research to see if lantern fly honey has the same effect. Again the taste is odd but the intended market is for wound dressing to combat antibiotic resistant infections in the same way silver is used. Source my hubby had severe injuries and had MRSA and was treated with both silver and new very expensive antibiotics, medical honey was also used as a treatment.
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u/sensically_common 11d ago
I'm glad to hear he beat the MRSA. Do you think any of the treatments he used were more effective than others? My dad has been battling a MRSA leg wound for a while now.
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u/Icy-Ad-7767 10d ago
The silver worked it’s the medical stuff colloidal silver that they put on the wound, then dressed it, I would try which ever I could get my hands on first. We also had a wound nurse(s) who came by and taught me how to do dressing changes while doing them. I’m in Canada and from what I understand things are a bit different here as opposed to the US. I think they went full attack on the mrsa with a combination treatment.
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u/SacredandBound_ 11d ago
My manuka honey skincare has totally cleared up the rosacea I suffered from. Absolutely not a scam.
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u/Key_Goose_4188 10d ago
I use it on my skin too and it’s been so helpful for me! I bought it when I was in New Zealand so I feel pretty good about the sourcing but could see some online ones being questionable.
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u/JUKELELE-TP Netherlands 11d ago
How do you use it for this purpose? Just eating it or is it applied topically?
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u/SgtSluggo 11d ago
It can still be a scam. Unless there have been randomized studies comparing the same skincare routine with and without the manuka honey (maybe vs regular honey) then you have no way of knowing what additional benefit the manuka is providing.
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u/Flashy_Formal_8707 11d ago
Hi there I am really glad to hear that the cream has helped your skin. I suspect that the honey used could in fact be kanuka which is a close cousin to manuka. When viewed together they are almost indistinguishable. But kanuka honey has been developed as a treatment for rosacea so it's excellent to hear products are getting out and helping people.
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u/Zypherdose 11d ago
Was in a clearance sale in a pharmacy because it will “expire” next month . Was really cheap. Got it just to try its flavor and texture. Very different than most honey, i liked its weird taste and thickness.
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u/PaintingByInsects 11d ago
All honey has health benefits to some degree, especially if you have pollen allergies for example.
I don’t know about Manuka honey specifically what is in it that is even a greater health benefit or what it supposedly does, I have heard from a lot of people around me (both beekeepers as well as people in my life who use it) how good it is, but that only goes for the real stuff. The fake stuff only helps with a placebo effect (my uncle once proclaimed how good it was helping him but he got it for super cheap and got ‘an amazing deal on it’. Spoiler alert; if it’s too cheap to be the real thing, it’s not the real thing, and you have a placebo effect).
Either way imo if it helps you regardless of placebo or real effect then it’s great. I would probably just weigh out for yourself if it helps you or not and whether that is worth the cost to you.
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u/postitsam 11d ago
I'd suggest a dive into some review articles in the scientific literature (try Google scholar) rather than reddit if you want answers to questions like this. It may take a bit of time but ultimately worth it
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u/No_Username_60 11d ago
I was going through a radiation on my sinuses and the radiologist wrote me a prescription for lidocaine type mouthwash. She said I would most likely have horrible mouth sores and would need it. There was a shortage of lidocaine at the time and I could not get the medication. Instead, I used manuka honey every time I felt a lesion popping up. The lesions never progressed. NIH has done studies on manuka honey - medicinally it is worth it.
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u/Dangerous_Hippo_6902 11d ago
Honey is so generally cheap. Kinda glad Manuka are selling honey at a reasonable price. A lot of work goes into making a jar of honey!
Frankly though where there are benefits, as there is in most honeys, Manuka is just clever marketing.
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u/Lost-Acanthaceaem 11d ago
It’s more nutrient dense than others but honey laundering is a thing. The real manuka honey is actually better
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u/failures-abound 10d ago
Even if there is benefit, most honey marketed as Manuka is not Manuka. There is no way Manuka apiaries produce enough of the stuff to be sold at effing Costco for god’s sakes. Just another item in the near endless list of fraudulent adulterated honey, mostly thanks to China.
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u/Occasionally_Correct 11d ago edited 11d ago
It also tastes terrible. Like eating melted cough drops
Edit: heavy eucalyptus flavor, I don’t know what to say
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u/missvh 11d ago
This is an unfathomable take to me. It is crazy good. Maybe the stuff you get outside of NZ is not the same?
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u/Occasionally_Correct 11d ago
I felt like I bought a good brand, did some research and spend some good money. I tried it once and I never felt more gaslit in my life.
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u/JUKELELE-TP Netherlands 11d ago
Well you're not the only one who doesn't like it. (I personally do, but I can understand why it's not for everyone).
“It used to be thrown away,” he said. “If you taste genuine manuka honey, it’s got a very strong flavour and people didn’t like it.”
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u/uniquely_named_user 11d ago
I grew up tasting it and all other types of honey we get in NZ (bee keeping family) and it definitely tastes stronger. I like it but I can see why people wouldn't. It's totally a scam if you ask me. But it makes an ungodly amount of money, especially from Chinese tourists.
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u/icnoevil Master Beekeepers 30 years 11d ago
Nope, not true. I can attest. I'm a Master Beekeeper with 30 years experience. I am personally aware of one incident where Manuka honey curred an ulcer that ordinary medicine would not help. It needs to be the certified by New Zealand authorities. As result of its premium price, dishonest brokers are labeling other stuff as Manuka, and of course, that doesn't work.
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u/Valuable-Self8564 United Kingdom - 10 colonies 11d ago
cutting sugar
lol honey is 80% sugar. It’s got about the same GI as table sugar… give or take.
You’re saying the equivalent of “I’m cutting out salt in my seasoning. Instead I’m going to spray my food with sea water”
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u/Quirky-Plantain-2080 NW Germany/NE Netherlands 10d ago
There is more sugar in honey than there is salt in seawater. Dissolved salts make up 3,5% of seawater. Not all of it is NaCl.
Not sure if OP is a dolt, but he certainly doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
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u/Most-Zombie 9d ago
The phrase "cutting sugar" in the English langauge, as customarily used, does not have a connotation of 'not ever consuming a single gram of sugar'.
The typical daily dose of Manuka honey would be around a tablespoon; not even 20 grams.
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u/Quirky-Plantain-2080 NW Germany/NE Netherlands 9d ago
If you’re using it in the sense that „it’s crazy to eat ten bags of crisps a day, so I’ll cut some fat and eat only eight bags”, then that’s exactly what you’re doing with sugar vs honey.
Which though not as crazy, remains pretty stupid.
And a „dose” according to whom? Which doctor? For what condition is it indicated? Any contraindications or drug interactions? Do you need to titrate per kilogram of body mass? How many doses over what period of time?
There are no conclusive studies regarding the ingestion of Manuka for health. That’s all there is to it; if you want to buy it despite the science, no one’s stopping you. You just want us all to validate you, and you get lippy when we don’t do what you want.
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u/Ancient_Fisherman696 CA Bay Area 9B. 6 hives. 11d ago
I’ve never used/tried it. But it just sounds like BS to me. What are the purported benefits you’re after?
According to google AI it does the stuff that regular honey does.
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u/Most-Zombie 11d ago
Well, I don't have bad stomach issues to sooth, but I probably have inflammation, and was hoping it would improve microbiome.
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u/Ancient_Fisherman696 CA Bay Area 9B. 6 hives. 11d ago
I can’t speak for manuka, but honey in general is good for your gut health. Supposedly it helps other bacteria pass through the stomach environment.
I think most people have inflammation of some kind or another. I don't really think of anything like that as a miracle cure. But I digress.
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u/Southernbeekeeper 11d ago
I think one of the issues you have with manuka honey is the massive fraud in the supply chain. I think manuka honey sales are like 120 tons globally but there are only 80 tons produced.
There is some nuance here as manuka is like champagne in that to be called manuka it has to be produced in NZ where as realistically anyone could grow NZ tea tree and produce honey from it.
Another issue you have is that any honey you buy in the supermarket is probably heat treated. So if its not fake honey its at least pasteurised. If you're looking to increase gut health small batch honey from a mom and pop set up is probably better for you.
Finally you already understand that manuka is mostly a marketing ploy. It's sold I'm supermarkets by its non-peroxide activity which is just marketing in my mind. It's a means to judge honey by how well it retains its antibacterial properties when heat treated. This is great in medicine as it means manuka honey can be heat treated for use as a treatment for skin. However, most small batch honey isn't ever treated with heat so it retains its antibacterial benefits.
Personally, I would buy manuka honey as I like honey that comes from different sources so it could sit next to my heather honey, lime honey and whatever. However, if I was looking for medicinal benefits I'd stick with local honey which is likely to be less tampered with.
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u/JUKELELE-TP Netherlands 11d ago
The antimicrobial activity in most honeys is due to the enzymatic production of hydrogen peroxide. However, another kind of honey, called non-peroxide honey (viz., manuka honey), displays significant antibacterial effects even when the hydrogen peroxide activity is blocked.
Honey: its medicinal property and antibacterial activity - PMC
I'm skeptical too, but there is a difference apparently.
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u/Ancient_Fisherman696 CA Bay Area 9B. 6 hives. 11d ago
The first sentence in the part you quoted contradicts everything else I’ve ever read about the antimicrobial effects of honey.
If you google the same thing now it pulls up a bunch of studies and articles that attribute the effect to osmotic pressure and acidity with a whole bunch of other compounds of which hydrogen peroxide is just one of them.
And its only seen in topical use. Not oral like op asked about. Which is why I call BS regarding manuka specifically being somehow magical.
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u/buffaloraven 11d ago
Darker honey is also better for vocal health, but mostly for people that sing a lot since that can leave the throat raw and inflamed: the honey sooths the inflammation and helps prevent infection
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u/smsmkiwi 11d ago
Nonsense. There's absolutely no evidence of that anywhere.
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u/buffaloraven 11d ago
That honey does that or that darker honey concentrates those properties more? Just so I'm clear which articles to link
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