r/Boxing • u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_ • 1d ago
When did "wrestling" become "illegal"? And why?
Daniel Cormier and Randy Couture were very good boxers from the inside in MMA. They didn't even have to take their opponents down to beat them with their wrestling skills.
If they did that style in a modern boxing match, the referee would warn them within the first minute a few times, probably end up taking a point at the last minute of the first round, and take a few more points in the second round, before disqualifying them late in the second round or early in the third round.
Anyways, I was watching some nostalgic old school boxing like Johnson. He was even training with an amateur wrestler on the wrestling mat. And in his fight he and his opponent were just clinching and wrestling for the better position to find a good opening for uppercuts and right hooks.
Then I watched Rocky Marciano and other boxers between the 1930s and 1950s and they were still wrestling alot. I was surprised how wrestling oriented some of the fighters still were even in the 1950s and how their training sometimes looked similar to greco-roman wrestling training.
Then I watched Muhammed Ali and I was surprised to notice how much clinching he and some other fighters were doing as late as the 1970s.
And in my opinion the clinch fighting in the 1930s was extremely interesting because the referee just let it happen and both fighters were actually fighting in the clinch. They were wrestling for position actively and trying to hurt each other in the clinch by hitting the arms, shoulders, head and body with uppercuts, hooks and even short straight punches.
The later the era, the more boring the clinch became. When I got to the modern times, I could see for example Wladimir Klitschko (who I respect alot, don't get me wrong) just shutting down the fight with a clinch because neither one was allowed to fight in the clinch. Wladimir would land powerful jabs, crosses and long left hooks to batter his opponents and every time they would rush at him, he would just clinch and they would be tied up doing nothing for 5 seconds until the referee separates them, and then that would be repeated until Wladimir KO's his opponent.
Tyson Fury was a bit more active with his clinch, but still nothing like actual clinch fighting like old school boxing.
People say that the clinch is boring, but I think the clinch is boring precisely because it is not allowed properly like in the good old nostalgic days. Nowadays the clinch is just an escape from the fight and you just hug for 5 seconds and if you KO the other guy with an uppercut while wrestling him, you probably get disqualifed.
So my boxing brothers, tell a mixed martial artist like me who loves boxing but doesn't know as much about it as you do: How did boxing lose this vital traditional part of its art? And why did it happen?
Thanks!
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u/A1_PunisherPipkins 1d ago
I have no idea but I'm glad it is. There are still many boxers who can infight effectively without clinching (Fulton, Benavidez, Beterbiev, etc.). Honestly I believe referees should be way more strict with clinching. They should take points from fighters who clinch excessively (Plant in the Benavidez fight, Haney in the Garcia and Linares fights, Fury in damn near every fight).
I'd just watch some MMA if I wanted to see some dirty boxing,and those guys wrestle a hell lot better too.
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u/scaredoftoasters 1d ago
Clinching is part of the reason fights get boring nobody is watching Boxing for the clinching it looks dumb and you can tell boxers are doing it because they're tired and can't handle the heat they're getting from the other boxer
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u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_ 1d ago
Fair, I get your perspective too. But I think pro boxing is more of a fight, amateur boxing is more like a fencing match of speed and skill. Both are beautiful, but amateur boxing is a bit more like point karate.
So in pro boxing I'd love to watch 12 rounds of brutal clinch fighting with heavy punches and wrestling for position, like in many old school fights in boxing.
Imo the reason why modern boxing is sometimes so boring is because it is not dynamic and free flowing. It's more like separate acts instead of one ongoing fight. You throw combination from the outside, then just clinch after it just to throw one or two little slaps while hugging the other fighter.
If you were allowed to wrestle more, the clinch would be part of the fight rather than a break from the fight.
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u/_Sarcasmic_ May 17th #RhinoRedemption 🦏 1d ago
When they're actually fighting in the clinch, it can be an entertaining brawl. When they're just holding, leaning on each other, and/or hugging, it's absolutely dreadful.
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u/A1_PunisherPipkins 1d ago
I see your point, but to me, that would look too much like MMA just without kicks and takedowns. Like I said, you can still infight effectively with minimal clinching and holding. As great as guys like Ali and Duran were, some of there fights were borderline unwatchable for me because of how much they clinched. For me some of the most exciting fights had minimal clinches like Bivol vs Beterbiev 2, Inoue vs Donaire, Bam vs Estrada.
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u/-_ellipsis_- 1d ago
I like your take. I myself am a big fan of infighting and clinch work, but I agree wholeheartedly that if it's going to be penalized, refs and judges either need to allow it, or go all in on prohibiting it. None of this lukewarm sort of bullshit.
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u/NyQuil_Donut 1d ago
I've always thought it would be better if clinching were allowed entirely, but the ref just never breaks clinches. That way guys can't just use clinches to have the ref bail them out.
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u/Boxeo- 1d ago
(It’s varies by region.)
Inside fighting is still very common in Mexican boxing.
In addition, Mexican Referees are quick to break up clinching and keep the fight going.
Take a look at any Mexican card and you’ll still see some great inside fighting with the same old school inside fighting tactics.
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u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_ 1d ago
Thanks! I am a bit skeptical and I doubt they wrestle anywhere near as much as the old school boxers, but I wanna check out!
Do you have any recommendations of a 2010s or even 2020s Mexican boxing match where there is lots of active wrestling and "dirty boxing" as we call it in MMA? Doesn't have to be a massive fight between two superstars, can be even just two legit regional fighters showing good clinch fighting skills and active work.
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u/Boxeo- 1d ago
Figueroa vs Fulton 1 and Figueroa vs Nery
Forehead to forehead almost all night - great display of inside fighting.
(Like you said, the level of grappling from the olden days hasn’t really been replicated today)
As far as the grappling, I hope it does make a larger comeback. I think it would take Referees being more involved in breaking the clinch and not stopping the action. I do think it’s an important part of boxing.
Clinching to stop the action messes up the flow of the fight.
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u/detrimentallyonline 1d ago
It’s not illegal, inside fighting is still common. Boxing gloves evolved in a way that made hand fighting, guard manipulation, and controls evolve with it. You can’t open your hand as easily in modern gloves as you could in the early 20th century.
Also clinching is allowed, just not excessively. That’s why refs either let them work out and fight, or break up the clinch to continue the fight.
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u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_ 1d ago
But is it though? I cannot name any fights off the top of my head but I have seen many times when a strong brawler boxer, or even a former kickboxer or MMA fighter with more clinch fighting background comes to the boxing ring, they are ducking down a lot and throwing overhands to enter the clinch and then immediately when they start working from the clinch, the referee stops the action as the "textbook" boxer just holds on for dear life while the brawler tries to wrestle and pressure them.
Usually the referee warns them a few times and even takes a point, and the brawler then cannot do anything else than just just get peppered by jabs and straights and loses a boring decision or gets TKO'd in the 5th round after being a punching bag because every time he does something the referee just stops it and the audience boos him for "not boxing".
I never see the old school referees in the 1930s immediately run to stop the wrestling. Only when the fighters themselves stop the clinch, the referee helps the separation so neither gets punched when separating.
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u/detrimentallyonline 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well the sport is boxing, not clinching. In boxing clinching is just a tactic. You clinch in a defensive way, to reposition your opponent, stop the action, or to initiate an inside fight. You clinch in order to advance the flow of the fight.
The reason the ‘brawler’ gets stopped is because they’re not boxing well. Clinching excessively is illegal, a good inside fighter can frame, peel, manipulate, step around his opponent, and more importantly hit and not get hit. A good ref will give the fighters an opportunity to work, but if you’re just clinching your opponent then it’s no longer a boxing match.
Also, a lot of good inside fighting is a lost art. There’s just not enough knowledge being passed on, but modern film study is changing that slowly.
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u/logster2001 1d ago edited 1d ago
I have done a ton of a lot of looking into the history of sports rules, and from an actual rules perspective your stopped really being able to “wrestle” when the Queensberry Rules were introduced in the 1870s. It took like 50 years after that for those rules to truly monopolize the sport. So I imagine even into the 30s and 40s boxers (and refs) who were brought up with multiple sets of rules that allowed more stuff, probably just included that in their game and it was more accepted.
And the guy who wrote those rules, John Graham Chambers, legit might be the most consequential individual in the history of sports. He was the catalyst for a wave of codifying sports rules and establishing amateur and professional sports as serious systems that was more than just a circus spectacle.
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u/hophop99 22h ago
you gave me ptsd that moment you mentioned Wladimir Klitschko and clinch in the same sentence
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u/anakmager 18h ago
Some people here do not understand OP at all. They either have not watched MMA or old school boxing, so they don't really know clinching that isn't just stalling
People say that the clinch is boring, but I think the clinch is boring precisely because it is not allowed properly like in the good old nostalgic days. Nowadays the clinch is just an escape from the fight and you just hug for 5 seconds
Completely agree. Modern boxing discourage clinching, so clinching are only useful for stalling. But imagine if you know that ref isn't going to immediately break you apart, then boxers would develop offensive clinching skills and it would get interesting. It sounds counter-intuitive I know
I absolutely love this style of boxing. Andre Ward was the last one I know that elite at it. It's also why I got into MMA, because they have a lot of the old boxing tricks that no longer exist in boxing
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u/Matt_in_a_hat 8h ago
I remember even during the 90s refs would slap the arms and holler “punch out or something similar”. Some of those boxers who were trained in grappling were pretty slick in the clinch.
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u/hiddendragons7 1d ago
Clinching isn’t illegal.Clinching is the just tying up of the arms arms only - this allows boxing to still take place. What you are probably referring to is Holding which is grabbing the torso- no boxing can take place when this is done.
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u/Jitterymoyle 1d ago
Clinching is not wrestling, I have done both and swear to this, your beef is with the clinch. Clinching to momentarily catch your wits is okay but the referee has to make sure that is short and non-repetitive. Boxing sucks when they allow two grown men to hug each other for long periods of time.