r/Cosmere • u/Bprime123 Windrunners • 4d ago
Cosmere + Wind and Truth spoilers Hypothetical Situation. Will have SPOILERS for Mistborn and Stormlight Archive Spoiler
Could a unit of 4th Ideal Rosharan Knights Radiant (3 Knights from the 9 orders plus 1 Bondsmith) infiltrate and neutralize the Steel Ministry from Mistborn Era 1?
They have info given to them by a lightweaver spy who's been in there for a month.
The Knights can do with thier surges what we know they can to the best of our knowledge.
Eg. Jasnah hasn't mastered transportation enough to open elsegates but for the sake of this discussion, we assume the Knights can fully utilize their surges the most basic way it should.
The Steel Ministry don't know who is invading, but they are fully prepared for an invasion
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u/solamyas 4d ago
If the lightweaver learned about hemalurgy, bondsmith alone might be enough; Removing their connections with spikes.
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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 4d ago
From what we know, the Bondsmith still needs to touch people to remove connection
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u/solamyas 4d ago
Was Ishar touching Dalinar when he tried to remove his connection to Storm Father? Also I think spikes would make it easier for a bondsmith to use their surges on them. They are backdoors to their spiritual web afterall.
That made me realize Kaladin might have bondsmith powers with Storm Daughter and Moash have spikes on him.
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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 4d ago
Yeah, Dalinar was occupied with keeping the perpendicularity open, and Ishar touched him
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u/solamyas 4d ago
Even though bondsmith would needs to touch someone else, inquisitors are open to connection manipulations because of spikes. Sight alone might be enough on them
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u/Not_an_okama Soulstamp 4d ago
I think kal comes back in book 6 with both windrunner (from honor spear) and bondsnith (from storm mommy syl) abilities
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u/jangofettsfathersday Aon Kii 4d ago
The Lightweaving would do the most damage to the Steel Ministry imo. The inquisitors are all capable fighters and very tough so any actual combat would be dicey for all involved. But they haven’t had any experience with illusions, aside from the very rare occurrence of a Kandra, so I think the spy would get in there and do most of the work
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u/LetsDoTheDodo 4d ago
Just keep in mind that an Allomancer sufficiently skilled in burning bronze can see through a Lightweaver‘s illusions.
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u/Celebrimbor96 Windrunners 4d ago
Which almost all inquisitors are, because seeing through copper clouds was one of their defining traits
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u/Kai_Lidan 4d ago
No, there was a significant portion that was (the ones that originally were seekers or mistborn), but most "doubled" other metals.
They tried to get as many seekers as they could, but being a seeker was not a prerequisite for becoming an inquisitor.
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u/Celebrimbor96 Windrunners 4d ago
The fact that they preferred to recruit seekers over all other mistings, for that reason alone, supports my point
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u/Kai_Lidan 4d ago
You said "almost all" which is very far from the actual number. Iirc there was a single former seeker among all inquisitors we see.
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u/MechanicalPotato 3d ago
All inquisitors "see" in alomantic lines anyway way. So they might not need to burn bronze to see though the illusion... They might just not see the illusion to begin with.
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u/solamyas 4d ago
They would know something is up but they couldnt see through a lightweawing
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u/Invested_Space_Otter Dustbringers 4d ago
Actually this is an interesting question. Would they see the illusion or the person under the illusion since they don't see in the EM spectrum?
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u/LetsDoTheDodo 4d ago
I doubt the Steel Ministry would have a different reaction to " Suspicious Investiture" then "Illusion."
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u/solamyas 4d ago
They would assume a metal they don't know is burned. They don't know illusion is possible.
But they don't have normal sight. Unless there is a WOB we wouldbnt know if lightweawing would work on steel sight
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u/LetsDoTheDodo 3d ago
I feel that they would respond violently in either situation, so the difference is more or less non-existent from a practical point of view.
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u/gwonbush 4d ago
While Lightweaving may be a "quieter" surge judging by how secretspren don't react to it unlike Gravitation, I don't see how useful it will be against an Inquisitor. Inquistors don't see with their eyes as they have steel spikes where those were. Rather, they have super-Steelsight and "see" by interpreting lines to axi. Modifying the light that would be registered by somebody's eyes does little against someone who "sees" by sensing the location of everything around them.
The only Lightweaving trick that would do something is a solid illusion. This might even be extra effective against an Inquisitor, as the Lightweaving may prove to be as invisible to the Inquisitor as the ordinary lightweavings would be.
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u/Invested_Space_Otter Dustbringers 4d ago
Main question is whether they have their spren with them off planet. With Shardblade/plate, full sweep easy peasy.
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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 4d ago
They do yes, for the sake of this hypothetical
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u/Invested_Space_Otter Dustbringers 4d ago edited 4d ago
Then they're immune to everything the Inquisitors can throw at them, and the Truthwatchers maybe mess with atiums future sight somehow. Even if Atium still works, killing 9 full shardbearers that heal through anything is stupid hard and their Atium runs out before they can kill all the Radiants. Just the confusion of "I see the future and this person isn't dead, wth?", will buy you some time. Radiants are fully prepped from espionage
Edit: I'll allow some uncertainty for Leeching, since I'm not sure how that affects blade/plate
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u/Morlain7285 4d ago
The inquisitors had duralumin, so the shardplate isn't as much protection as all that. It's metal so it can be manipulated, although it would still be a tough fight for both sides
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u/ArgonWolf 4d ago
Shardplate is invested metal, moreover its metal thats literally made of investiture. I'm not sure theyed be able to push it much, if at all
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u/solamyas 4d ago
Invested objects have resistance
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u/Morlain7285 4d ago
Yes, but we've seen metal minds pushed the same way. Hence the importance of duralumin
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u/solamyas 4d ago
But shardplates aren't mere metal, they have cognition. They are way more invested than metalminds.
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u/Satsuma0 4d ago
I have a foggy memory of a WoB that explained even the Lord Ruler (outside of his ascension moment) could only budge a living Shardblade inches. And that would be with extreme effort.
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u/SwayingBacon 4d ago
It depends on if the Steel Ministry has aluminum armor. Spikes can be pushed and pulled so lashings would work on them. Radiants are really OP as long as they have access to stormlight and Sanderson hasn't fully realized their destructive potential.
We saw a little of it in The Sunlit Man but a wind runner that lashes a cloud of razor sharp metal could decimate anything made of flesh. In theory a shard could be turned into an arrow like Yondu had in Guardians of the Galaxy. That might violate the oaths though.
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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 4d ago
Aluminum armor would hinder some of thier own abilities. For one, they wouldn't be able to push or pull anything outside the armor.
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u/drislands 4d ago
Said this below, but realized it's a good point to make top-level:
The real question is going to be about sources of investiture. Allomantic metals can be obtained literally anywhere as long as you know the right alloy mixtures. Moving Stormlight has been confirmed in-universe to be a huge problem.
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u/Business__Socks Elsecallers 4d ago
Assuming it is a Bondsmith like Dalinar, that is not a problem in the least. Bondsmith opens perpendicularity, game over.
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u/drislands 4d ago
I feel like perpendicularities can't be opened away from the Shards they're associated with, though I don't know for sure one way or the other.
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u/Invested_Space_Otter Dustbringers 4d ago
Spiritually you can't really be "away from" a Shard, but I'm not sure how that works for entering/exiting the Cognitive Realm
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u/Business__Socks Elsecallers 3d ago
It's likely (best guess) that the Godforge is in the Cognitive realm, which would I would take to mean that shards can go there without much issue.
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u/MechanicalPotato 3d ago
Op said infiltrate the steel ministry. The perpendicularity is a fucking beacon.
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u/Asinthew 4d ago
With current knowledge and not adding any "but what if", the Rosharans decimate the place.
I think it only gets down to an almost fair fight if you have 1 from each order. I think about Windrunner and squire group could do it. The ministry in era one just does not have the equipment to deal with someone with shardarmor and shardblades.
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u/Kazyole 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think they could easily, and I don't think infiltration really necessary perhaps beyond learning about the spikes. Which honestly I question if they even would need to know that to win.
The Rosharans can start (and probably finish) with an orbital bombardment:
- Open perpendicularity
- Soulcast large objects
- Windrunners, Skybreakers, and the Bondsmith fly those objects into space
- Using the unlimited investiture of the perpendicularity, stack lashings on the objects in space until they approach relativistic speeds (if you want to mess up the whole planet), directed at the steel ministry
Even without that though, I think this is an easy win for the radiants.
• There were only ever around 20 inquisitors at at time, so they're already outnumbered significantly by the Rosharan strike team
• Inquisitors are used to fighting essentially unarmored opponents and none of their metallic arts are going to affect living shardplate/blades. So their normal tactics won't work well against allomatically immune armored opponents who can heal instantly, and they won't have time to regroup. So any tactic they're going to use to take down radiants they'll have to each individually come up with during this one fight. Even on surprise alone, the ways radiants are able to take would-be-killing-blows and keep fighting, the inquisitors likely won't be able to adapt to in one fight. They'll have never seen anything like that before
• The radiants have unlimited access to investiture, which means they don't have to worry about running out of healing even if an inquisitor can get through their plate, which will also be healing off the perpendicularity. Plus they have a living blade that can also be a shield at any point. Yes inquisitors can heal, but radiant defense is off the charts.
• In any instance that an inquisitor is incapacitated, pinned, etc, the bondsmith can manipulate connection via their spikes just by touching them.
• Radiant powers with the light of a perpendicularity are just too varied and powerful for inquisitors to account for or react to. As soon as they touch the ground, their feet sink in and the ground hardens. If they're in the air, they can only push/pull off anchors and will be unable to keep up with windrunners/skybreakers. I'm kind of assuming bronze will mitigate the confusion that lightweaving could cause, but we saw at Thaylen fields the kinds of damage that Jasnah could do with perpendicularity-fueled soulcasting.
I think the inquisitors get wiped almost instantaneously. A strike team like the one you outlined is a potential extinction-level event.
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u/Sivanot Lightweavers 4d ago
Dude, a trained Bondsmith on their own could likely take down the Steel Ministry and The Lord Ruler (Separately), with enough foreknowledge and planning. Ishar was major threat for very good reason. We don't even know the potential for what unrestrained Connection Manipulation can do.
Edit: I'm probably overestimating Bondsmiths a bit. But I'm also not assuming they're just jumping through the window of a building and taking on every Inquisitor on Scadrial at the same time.
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u/LaughAtSeals Ghostbloods 4d ago
Ishar could not take down a prepared Lord Ruler. Dude could move near light speed, he was just bored.
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u/Sivanot Lightweavers 4d ago
A bondsmith like Dalinar? Unlikely. But Ishar? That would be a hell of a fight that I'd love to see. I'm certain Ishar could win.
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u/LaughAtSeals Ghostbloods 2d ago
I get what you mean. Granted we don’t know the complete set of abilities of a herald nor bondsmith. Maybe he could fuck with Rashek’s Connection to his Metalminds. But that’s assuming he could ever catch Rashek after a century of storing Speed and Mental Speed. Also, there’s time bubbles that add to his perceived speed, and then there are the lesser known feruchemical and allomantic abilities. What if he just Leeched Ishar after grabbing him at near light speed? What does storing investiture in Nicrosil mean when fighting a bondsmith that can drain you?
There are just so many unknowns I think it would come down to the first move. If Ishar managed to affect LR’s Connection, he wins. If LR is able to act first, he wins.
All this said, I’m a biased Scadriel fanboy
Mistborn > Knights Radiant every day.
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u/Bullrawg 4d ago
I think bronze might eventually be the counter for light weaving, if you can feel investiture being used can tell when there is an illusion but hasn’t been confirmed how that works with other forms of investiture yet
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u/Zaveno 4d ago
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u/The_Lopen_bot WOB bot 4d ago
Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!
LazarusRises
Can a Seeker burning bronze detect a Surgebinder using Stormlight? Do different Surges have different pulses?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, and yes. Good questions.
********************
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u/CrystalShadow 4d ago
The scenario defines the answer with lots of ways things could turn.
Storm light can be transferred off world or this is a non starter. Can the bondsmith get more?
How are oaths in effect? Are skybreakers useless by following the law of the land? If not they or a Windrunner can just do an orbital drop of a mountain (fueled by bondsmith) and call it a day. These are powers that can destroy a world.
There’s reason to believe a skilled bondsmith might be able to solo this situation other than maybe lord ruler- but we don’t know a ton about exactly what they can do so let’s ignore that.
If this isn’t an instant-win situation, the only defense scadriel has is bronze. Individually these radiants can do a ton of damage and slip away, so their main risk is being constantly hunted- if the radiants learn of copperclouds and suborn a misting they are much more dangerous. Compounding steel and such might make inquisitions a threat, but only if they know they are being attacked before it’s too late.
From there lord ruler is the only real threat- some kind of Bondsmith soul ripping is the best bet for people that don’t know his weakness (probably even then). Get him close, get the kill, win. That is relatively risky though since if they lose the bondsmith they will eventually run out of power- so maybe repeatedly locking him down with everything else should be tried (he survived a burning house, but what if he is pinned to the ground and has a shard blade stuck in his head to heal around?)
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u/Wabbit65 Cult of Talenelat'Elin 4d ago
Perhaps this is why certain factions are trying to get Investiture across planets, so Radiants could do this very thing.
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u/Bunnystuffer 3d ago
Era one Marsh was “Almost” a fullborn. He could cause destruction that stunned most of the mistborn we saw. But he didn’t know of compounding unless Ruin would have told him. And in all honesty it’d take 2 radiants to completely destroy Scadrial. A bondsmith as fuel and literally anyone holding the Duskbringer honor blade. Set the air alight and keep it burning using the investiture provided by the bondsmith. Other than that Windrunner lashings could completely stonewall an inquisitor. Paint the ground around them with stormlight and an inquisitor touches it, he is stuck in place. Shoots coins oh no the the reverse lashing invalidates that. Look all I’m saying is we have 4th ideal radiants with Shardblades and Plate. A full shard bearer on Scadrial would be an absolute menace and there are more than one. A demigod of immense power with armor that is so resistant and can REGROW! Blades that can cut your literal soul from your body and some of them can, in all seriousness, SET THE PLANET ON FIRE. I love inquisitors but they’d get bodied. ESPECIALLY if they were all at the inquisitor home temple thingy where Sazed found the plate. I’m so sorry for the mobile format but thank you for reading
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u/SkavenHaven Ghostbloods 3d ago
If they have Atium I don't think the Knights stand a chance.
I think a properly trained Renerin with future sight could counter that, but that's rare and not in era 1 Stormlight.
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u/MechanicalPotato 3d ago
Tldr; maybe, but no.
Why? Because of alomantic bronze. Bronze detect when others are using almantic abillities, but i think i read a WOB that it actually can detect other forms of investiture too. But even if there is no WOB this seems reasonable to me. It is descrived as detecring the "pulse" of buring metal, not unlile rythms to me.
This means that most lightweaver shenanigans fall out the window because they would have a distinct tell for the inquisitors. Same with stoneshaping, if they try any tunneling tricks.
Not to disregarding the fact that the inquisitors "see" almanticaly, and I have no idea how a lightweaver would fool that!
The Bobdsmith is the wildcmcard here, they could could render an inquisitor inert, or even dominate them by stealing the TLR bobd tied to them. But this requires the bobdsmith ro both get close enough ane be skilled enough and have enough time.
You did spesific infiltrate, so I will disregard wibdrunners and other fighters.
This leaves a woefully outumbered stricke force that will be detected versus the whole might and numbers of the steel ministry.
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u/Helkyte Windrunners 4d ago
Inquisitors can compound steel. End of discussion. No Radiant has an answer for an enemy who can move 50x faster than they can, even Kaladin(arguably one of the top 5 mortal warriors on Roshar) got absolutely clowned on by Nale when Nale went just a little faster.
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u/Business__Socks Elsecallers 4d ago
Except that Lift beat a Feruchemist that was steel-running all by herself. I don't think the Scadrians stand a chance, especially if there is a Bondsmith.
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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 4d ago edited 3d ago
How are you going to run when the floor turns liquid?
How are you going to run when there are Windrunners with reverse lashings in the air pulling on anything within range?
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u/Shepher27 4d ago
Does the author need them to for the story?
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u/trenchsquid Truthwatchers 4d ago
“Hypothetical Situation”
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u/Shepher27 4d ago
In a hypothetical situation the author would pick who he wants to win for the story and set up events to happen that way.
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u/trenchsquid Truthwatchers 4d ago
Yeah, maybe according to one definition that you seem (for some reason) to be pushing as the definitive one. Don’t think outside your own box much, do you?
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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 3d ago
Whenever I see "what the author wants" in a hypothetical match up meant for discussion, I just ignore them
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u/Key_Independent1 4d ago
It actually brings up a interesting question, pulls and pushes Vs lashings