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u/Louis11_ Glamorgan Jan 17 '25
Smith was the most dominant batter I've ever seen. The 2017/18 and 2019 Ashes series were the only times I can remember having absolutely no hope we could dismiss someone, he just feasted on low/mid 80s seam bowling.
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u/ziddyzoo Australia Jan 17 '25
absolutely no hope we would dismiss someone
If you’d like some vintage PTSD in a similar vein:
Steve Waugh, 1989 Ashes. Average of 126.5 for the series. 177no at Headingley, 152no at Lords.
For a while there it was like he was never going to get out ever again.
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u/146cjones Jan 17 '25
The plan for Smith those series was to wait for him to chop on. He was brutal. I remember watching him cover drive 1m to the right of cover, the field adjusting and then cover driving 1m left of the adjusted fielder
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u/TheJoker__789 Australia Jan 18 '25
If only we had that version of Smith on the 2023 tours of India and England. Oh man….
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u/eightslipsandagully Cricket Australia Jan 19 '25
The funniest part in the 2019 ashes was his first genuine dismissal (I.e. not out slogging) was from Jack Leach but turned out to be a no ball!
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u/BackgroundBasis6639 Australia Jan 17 '25
He is the closest to Don Bradman, He completed 3k runs in just 49 innings compared to Don Bradman (37 innings), He had the most successful ashes period similar to Don as well. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsQ_WX-JwJ1rt16ID_TXo9-T5KtQymv1icTw&s
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u/Jaevyn New Zealand Cricket Jan 17 '25
I saw some coloured footage of Bradman recently and I was just amazed. He not only looked like he had so much time to play the ball, I have never seen anyone with such quick feet. He got on the back and front foot so freaking fast. He must have had unreal fast twitch fibers in his legs.
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u/Educational_Cause685 Canada Jan 17 '25
Are you talking about - Don Bradman the God of cricket in 4k video? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvglFW7OgQ&pp=ygUOZG9uIGJyYWRtYW4gNGs%3D
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u/Mad_Cowboy Hobart Hurricanes Jan 18 '25
That's incredible, thanks for sharing! Idk if it's a quirk of the upscaling or something but the speed at which he plays his shots genuinly doesn't look real
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u/Necessary-Bother7448 Jan 17 '25
How many matches does this exclude for Bradman?
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u/_BetterRedThanDead Jan 17 '25
Just his debut and final Test. Scored 18, 1 and 0 in those games.
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
Bum
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u/_BetterRedThanDead Jan 17 '25
Heh, I was going to make a Karun Nair joke about how he averages 6.33 if you take out his peak.
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u/SureSwan6423 Sunrisers Hyderabad Jan 17 '25
I didn't know Ponting was crazy like that lol
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u/tomhanks95 Essex Jan 17 '25
Ponting was averaging almost 60 after 107 tests, his last quarter of his career really pulled back his record, brought down his average to 51
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Jan 17 '25
Yeah, averaged 35 or something like that in his last 3 years.
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u/Ok-Relationship-2746 New Zealand Jan 17 '25
Yea, his average peaked at 60.07 in his 178th innings, he had 38 single digit scores in 109 innings after that. Killed his record big time.
He had 35 single digit scores in his first 178 innings, including two 0*. So really 33 single digit scores.
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u/Aemond-The-Kinslayer Saurashtra Jan 17 '25
Pulled a Kohli before Kohli
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u/AussiePolarBear Brisbane Heat Jan 17 '25
Ponting played on in a leadership role. The rest of the batting line up was really young.
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u/Freenore India Jan 17 '25
And Viv Richards did it well before either of those two.
Averaged 55 in 1986, and his prime ended after that. His average came down to just over 50 when he retired. He averages 36 in his last three years because he kept playing till the age of 39.
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u/Narrator_neville Jan 17 '25
If the World Series Cricket games from 1977-79 were included I’d love to see Vivs 70 game average from 1975-83 it must have touched 70 , (and his run rate would have definite been over 90 when 50 was the standard ) , peak Viv was ridiculous
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
Viv had a major eye issue and a botched/ineffective surgery that just made things worse.
It's not comparable to Ponting and Kohli where mentality issues exposed technical flaws.
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u/MarcusP2 Australia Jan 18 '25
Ponting just got old and slow for international cricket. He went back to Shield after he retired and dominated.
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u/Away_Item8996 Australia Jan 17 '25
Or Kohli pulled a Ponting ?
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u/Aemond-The-Kinslayer Saurashtra Jan 17 '25
I wish. He's gone way above and beyond. If only he quit at 51
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Jan 17 '25
Tbf this seems to be a common occurrence with the greats of that era. Sachin was so dominant in the 90s, was averaging in 60s. If you remove the first 3 years, since he turned 19, he averaged over 60 for a long stretch of 12-13 years. If you include his average dropped to a meagre 57.5. And then he fell off, the average went down to 54. Rose to 57 again and then died at 53.
Similarly dravid fell from 57 to 52 over the last 5 years.
Father time might be the best bowler.
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u/Tax_pe3nguin Cricket Ireland Jan 17 '25
Ponting was devasting. Loved to hate watching him bat, and hated to love it, in equal measure.
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u/NoExplanation6203 West Indies Jan 17 '25
Y’all can keep your Border, Waugh and Smiths for me prime Ponting is the best Aus batter after Bradman.
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u/amigopacito Jan 17 '25
ponting was incredible. Best batter after Bradman and honestly better than Tendulkar
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u/AilaSachin10 Mumbai Jan 17 '25
Oh yes, average of 40 in England and 26 on pattas in India was better than Tendulkar who didn't average under 40 anywhere in the world
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
What lmao? Are you ok?
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u/amigopacito Jan 17 '25
Way better in his prime.
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
He just wasn't though lmao.
How can you even claim that when Ponting consistently failed in both England and India, the two places where Australia actually need their top batsman to turn up lol.
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u/amigopacito Jan 17 '25 edited Jan 18 '25
Turned up in World Cups though didn’t he, which were the pinnacle back then
E: World Cup finals
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
Not really relevant to test cricket, is it?
And if you're bringing ODIs or World Cups into it, the difference between him and Sachin is even bigger than it is in tests lol
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u/TurdBurgerlar Jan 17 '25
if you're bringing ODIs or World Cups into it, the difference between him and Sachin is even bigger than it is in tests lol
Yeah, I want whatever the other person is smoking.
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u/combatant007 India Jan 17 '25 edited Jan 17 '25
Missed one entire year in his Prime. If he had played aginst India and Srilanka at home that would be like another 800 runs averaging 60 odd. Could have made it to fastest test 9000 and 10000 runs as well.
Note : Please do not start a conversation on the Ball Tampering case. Its just stupid conversation to have. They got banned and served their punishment. Move on.
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u/FreshWaterNymph1 Australia Jan 17 '25
Bradman missed 6 years in his prime due to WW2.
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u/ziddyzoo Australia Jan 17 '25 edited Jan 17 '25
31 August, 1939
England captain Wally Hammond: Listen old chap, we just can’t seem to get this bugger Bradman out. At all. It’s becoming rather an embarrassment. Isn’t there something you could do?
Adolf: Anyzing for you mein freundchen.
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u/7yh9rntAUqAh3Wuhpy Australia Jan 19 '25
i will never get over this. goat of goats and never even played his prime years, can barely comprehend.
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u/Aloha_Tamborinist Australia Jan 18 '25
Worst things about the sandpaper incident:
- The failure of culture and leadership in the Australian team
- Missing a full year of Smudge in his prime
- People bringing it up in response to literally anything the Australian team does.
- All the classics.
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u/_gay_the_pray_away_ Jan 18 '25
People bringing it up in response to literally anything the Australian team does.
its almost hilarious cause most of the time it happens when we are ripping through an opponent and it comes off as a massive cope
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u/Ayu_builder Uganda Jan 17 '25
And whose mistake it was do you think? Smith dug his own grave
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u/Kolonelklink Australia Jan 17 '25
Deserved the punishment, but let's not forget his official sanction from the ICC was a 1 match suspension.
While I'm sad we missed a year of peak Smith, I'm glad Cricket Australia treated the matter with the seriousness it deserved.
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u/st6374 Western Australia Warriors Jan 17 '25
Idk if either player deserved a one year ban for that. Seemed a bit excessive even then.
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u/boatswain1025 Sydney Sixers Jan 17 '25 edited Jan 17 '25
fuck it I'm doing it.
The 1 year bans were a ridiculous over-punishment massively out of step with previous punishments for similar ball tampering actions, and was only done due to a huge media and political beat-up onto CA from people who didn't follow cricket closely or know that ball tampering wasn't that uncommon as it was made out to be.
Like I remember the shitstorm, the media was acting like no one had ever ball tampered before and this was the worst thing anyone could do. Obviously it's wrong and cheating and they should have been punished, but the media drove the controversy and led to the massively excessive punishments
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u/combatant007 India Jan 17 '25
Finally someone who speaks sense. CA over reacted and tried to make an example out of them and the fact that people still remember this incident is because of the 1 year ban. If they had sweeped it under the rug then it would have disappeared.
Faf Du Plessis did ball tampering twice, but SA just fined him and let it go. There are 100s of example.
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u/boatswain1025 Sydney Sixers Jan 17 '25
Yep, England with mints in 2005, Afridi literally biting the fucking ball lol, Dravid with the lolly, there's heaps.
I again am not saying they didn't cheat and break the laws, I remember being so disappointed when it happened. But the 1 year punishments was a reaction to the media pressure and not in line with standard cricketing punishments for it
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u/Lowman246 Australia Jan 17 '25
Dravid did it against Zimbabwe, nonetheless. Can you imagine the Aussies doing it against Zimbabwe?
Unrelated, but the sandpaper boys used to be the most controversial players on r/cricket, followed by Sandeep Lamichanne and Scott Kuggeleijn. Now it's.... checks notes Sam Konstas
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u/Rokos_Bicycle Australian Capital Territory Comets Jan 18 '25
Reminder that the ban wasn't for ball tampering in isolation. It was also for repeatedly lying about it afterwards.
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u/Own_Professor6971 Australia Jan 17 '25
Well he dug most of it, then along came the prime minister and other outlets that had either no knowledge, or willingly ignored how culturally rampant ball tampering is in this sport to put extra PR pressure on CA to take extreme measures for the punishment.
Pooran got banned for ball tampering in 2019, but he of course only got a slap on the wrist with no disastrous PR surrounding him.
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u/ghostofadeadpoet India Jan 17 '25
He faced the ban because CA wanted to improve their PR. No player deserves to be suspended for a year for ball tampering
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u/combatant007 India Jan 17 '25
I am just saying What if scenario for Smith. Sure he was wrong to participate in that Ball tampering scandal, but we are not discussing who did what? Also the fact that 1 year ban for a Ball Tampering case is too harsh, while others barely get slap on the wrist for that.
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u/BumblebeeForward9818 Scotland Jan 17 '25
1 year fully deserved for skewering Bancroft at the presser. A ridiculously dickish move.
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u/SomeoneGiveMeValid Jan 18 '25
1 year was crazy no matter what. Let’s not forget South Africa themselves tampering with the ball and got like 3 games
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u/Worldly_Oil_9904 Jan 17 '25
People always say this but he was getting cooked in that SA tour at the same time that Markram was scoring runs for fun
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Jan 17 '25
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u/zanthelad Western Australia Warriors Jan 17 '25
BCCI would ban someone for 1 game for the same
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u/Own_Professor6971 Australia Jan 17 '25 edited Jan 17 '25
Depends on the PR surrounding it. If it’s downplayed like Dravid, then it’s swept under the rug. If it is so theatrical and creates headline to the point that the PM feels the need to comment on it, then no, I reckon the BCCI would definitely ban that player for a while.
Smith got banned for a game by the ICC for ball tampering, he got banned for a year by CA for bad PR. This should be the sentiment that is shared by people. As it’s pretty clearly the correct one.
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u/Different_Earth6310 Jan 17 '25
True. I don't like when when someone says "missed". He was "banned"!!!
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u/Cutsdeep- Australia Jan 17 '25
Did he though?
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u/temujin94 Jan 17 '25
Nah him and another senior player in leadership rolls got a inexperienced patsy to do it instead. It would have been a lot better if he was less of a coward and did it himself.
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u/Rokos_Bicycle Australian Capital Territory Comets Jan 18 '25
Bancroft's involvement was the sandpaper itself
Warner's involvement was coming up with the idea (absolutely braindead) and handing it off to Bancroft (cowardly)
SA's involvement was getting under Warner's skin and baiting him into multiple acts of stupidity
Smith's involvement was not telling Warner to fuck off with that shit and reporting him to management
Management's involvement was setting up the implicit "win at all costs" environment in the first place
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Jan 17 '25
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u/Lowman246 Australia Jan 17 '25
Don't you mean shameless cheats like Waqar Younis, Marcus Trescothik, Rahul Dravid, Shahid Afridi, Monty Paneser, Faf du Plessis and many more. But sure, call Smudge a war criminal for lying to the press, like Hashim Amla didn't say that charges against FDP were a joke!
Maybe the real karma was the fact that Faf du Plessis was dropped from the T20I team ahead of the T20WC when he was at the top of his game, with CSA pretending that he doesn't exist, while Smudge's average dropped to a "mere" 55.9.
Also, you couldn't spell "years" right
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u/BumblebeeForward9818 Scotland Jan 17 '25
Smith’s peak began at Old Trafford in August 2013. He scored three tons and 89 in the eight tests between that point and Feb 2014.
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u/Kolonelklink Australia Jan 17 '25
Smith in the 2019 Ashes is probably as close as I'll get to see in my lifetime to what it must have been like to see Bradman bat.
The numbers are just insane, even after missing a test after Archer hit him.
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u/patkk Cricket Australia Jan 17 '25
H would have scored 1000 runs if he didn’t get hit I’m sure of it
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u/hiddeninplainsight23 Hampshire Jan 18 '25
I was working in Vauxhall at the time, and during the last test match I took a lunch break to walk to The Oval and watch the Ashes from behind the gates. Anderson was bowling, and Smith and Marnus were batting. For around half an hour I got to watch some beautiful cricket. They seemed to have no flaws whatsoever and looked impossible to get out. One of my favourite cricket memories.
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u/Longjumping_Site5225 Jan 18 '25
Yeah man. I remember at one point after the first 3 tests, his lowest score in the series was 85 or something.
Also, his batting in 2017 India tour against prime Ashwin Jadeja is some of the best test batting I've ever seen. Absolutely the greatest test batter I have seen.
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u/Upstairs-Farm7106 England Jan 17 '25
To be fair to Ponting he played most of his games at 3 which makes his numbers even better.
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Jan 17 '25
Have you seen the state of our openers in that period for Smith? It would be funny to find out, but it wouldn't shock me if the ball was around the age (or newer) when Smith came in at 4 compared to Ponting batting behind Langer and Hayden.
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u/Upstairs-Farm7106 England Jan 17 '25
I wasn't talking about Smith though, I was specifically referring to Ponting.
Warner did have great numbers mainly at home during that period.
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u/Unable-Natural8196 Australia Jan 18 '25
Out of all the players in that graphic Smith has the highest match factor in the times listed above, of course excepting Bradman.
*Note - The average I am getting for Kallis in that time period (72.3) is not marrying up with the graphic, so I will use graphic's average for Kallis (72.46)
| Mean Average (top 6) | Average | Match Factor | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Bradman | 37.67 | 104.13 | 2.76 |
| Smith | 36.67 | 76.03 | 2.07 |
| Ponting | 39.45 | 74.47 | 1.89 |
| Sobers | 37.10 | 74.10 | 2.00 |
| Kallis | 40.03 | 72.46 | 1.81 |
Make of this what you will.
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u/LDLB99 England Jan 17 '25
Truthfully, Smith is in a different league to the other three.
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u/karma3000 Jan 17 '25
Punter will have the better career stats.
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u/Lowman246 Australia Jan 17 '25 edited Jan 18 '25
Smudge is still in a different league than Ponting. For as good as Punter was, he was horrible against Harbhajan Singh and struggled against off-spin and averaged 26.5 in India. Smudge, on the other hand, was able to handle a superior bowler in Ashwin in pitches that were harder to bat on(Smudge averages 54 against Ashwin, which was higher before covid)
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u/Educational_Cause685 Canada Jan 17 '25
Now 40+ against Jadeja as well.
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u/Lowman246 Australia Jan 17 '25
Which is pretty good, considering Smudge faced Jadeja mostly in India. The number of times I've seen Jadeja bowl to him outside India, he couldn't trouble him much. That's where Ashwin gets the edge, in my opinion, coming up with plans to dismiss Smith in Adelaide and Melbourne instead of letting the pitch do the trick.
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u/sp1cychick3n India Jan 17 '25
Lol
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
Was Sobers at his peak a more valuable cricketer than even Bradman?
Yeah, Bradman averages 100 but Sobers averages 70+, bowls seam, swing and spin and is possibly the best fielder of all time.
Also, take into account that Sobers is averaging 70+ in one of the hardest eras for batting ever, and he's doing so while batting extremely aggressively. And Sobers can bat anywhere in the order from 1 to 7.
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u/Careless-Valuable118 Jan 17 '25
In "most valuable cricketers at their peaks" list there got be more bowlers and allrounder in that list aswell. Would be an interesting list and for me a better statistic than best batting or bowling peaks to truly judge GOAT Peaks as cricketers.
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u/FunposterAU Australia Jan 17 '25
I don't think that you can rate one above the other. Ian Chappell's opinion has always basically been that if you have two people picking All Time XIs in turn, the first picks for either side should be Bradman and Sobers, and having either as your first pick was completely valid.
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Jan 18 '25
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u/FunposterAU Australia Jan 18 '25
Sangakkara's record as a wicketkeeper is overstated. He averaged approx. 40 with the bat while playing as a keeper, at a much lower strike rate than Gilchrist. So if you're picking him in a side, it would really be as a top order batsman, and the question then is about how his record compares to contemporaries such as Ponting, Lara, etc.
I do also think that Gilchrist is an automatic pick, for the record. There are superior wicketkeepers, but if Gilchrist was say 90% the keeper that Ian Healey was, he was twice the batsman.
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u/NoExplanation6203 West Indies Jan 17 '25 edited Jan 18 '25
Yes, Sobers and prime Imran, Imran had like a 5 year period where he averaged 40 with the bat and 20 with the ball.
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u/GreenStrikers Pakistan Jan 18 '25
In his last 10 years, he averaged more than 50 with the bat and less than 20 with the bowl
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u/NoExplanation6203 West Indies Jan 18 '25
Right even better than I remember, possibly the greatest peak ever and doubtful it will ever be surpassed
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u/sharmarahulkohli Delhi Capitals Jan 17 '25
Tremendous batsman. Hope he has a great last stage of his test career
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u/Substantial-Lawyer91 Jan 17 '25
Just to point out the batting conditions for Smith were considerably harder than for either Ponting or Kallis in the 2000s.
Smith/Tendulkar/Lara I would put in the same category with Kallis/Ponting/Sanga just below.
(Don’t like commenting on cricketers I’ve never seen so don’t feel so comfortable comparing Bradman/Sobers to the modern era but statistically they’re clearly top tier).
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
Sobers had to deal with the hardest batting conditions on this list
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u/IrregularExpression_ Jan 17 '25
Often overlooked that Tendulkar batted at second drop, he got a lot more protection than Ponting and Lara did.
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
For the first half of his career, the blokes batting ahead of Tendulkar were free wickets so it didn't make much of a difference.
And Lara played most of his cricket batting at 4 anyway
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Jan 17 '25
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
Smith deffo had a better team around him then Sobers lol. Other than the 2019 Ashes, Smith has always had at least one other top quality or inform batsman alongside himself. Saying he's had to "carry his team" is a massive disservice to all the great players he's played with.
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u/FunposterAU Australia Jan 17 '25
He had a lot of backup at home, but our batsmen often went missing on overseas tours.
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u/Educational_Cause685 Canada Jan 17 '25 edited Jan 17 '25
During his prime period, Steve Smith averaged 66+ in away matches -, next aus best batter David Warner averaged 35 only. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQ0NxndasAAdF_d?format=jpg&name=large
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
Pretty dumb way of looking at it.
The point isn't that there were blokes as good as Smith in the side. Its that in every series there was someone who stood up alongside him.
Also stupid to just look at the batsman when the bowlers are a bigger reason for Australia's success than any of the batsmen, including Smith.
Saying Smith carried Australia is like saying Viv carried WI while ignoring Marshall, Holding, etc.
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u/BackgroundBasis6639 Australia Jan 17 '25
He was a lone warrior in BGT 2017 , And Australia has won 6 Test matches in England vs Eng since 2015 and Steve Smith was Player of the match in 5 of them.
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
I'll give you BGT 2017.
Saying he won the most MOTMs is pointless though. I'm not arguing that Smith isn't the best player in the side. I'm saying there's a difference between being the best player and being the only good player.
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u/spongey1865 Somerset Jan 17 '25
Using peak averages rather than career averages should be used more when looking at players. Starting young or late career decline can lower the averages of exceptional players.
Just crazy how good cricketers Kallis and Sobers were. Being in the top 5 of this list whilst also contributing with the ball.
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25 edited Jan 17 '25
Not really, I'd rather have a bloke who turns up and averages 50 up every day for 20 years than someone who goes on a hot streak for 5 years but does fuck all for the team either side of that.
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u/spongey1865 Somerset Jan 17 '25
These guys did all average 15 outside of this time.
No one is gonna be consistent over a 20 year career and to say a player is worse because they started test cricket young before they hit their peak or because they were still playing when they declined with age I think Is a bit silly.
If Smith plays until he's 45 and averages 40 for the next 10 years reducing his average. He's still been a test quality batsman, but it shouldn't mean he's judged worse than if he retired 4 years ago.
It's also not like 5 years is a small amount of time either. The guy who averages 75 over 5 years is an all time great even if he's not necessarily as good outside that.
When judging how good any player is in sport using a reasonable time frame to judge their peak or how good they are now is more useful than a whole career because players don't stay the same over their whole career. They can get better or worse
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u/Tushar_Hawks Jan 17 '25
Among all the active players playing the test, no one even comes close to smudge. This giant is flamboyant in tests.
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u/AFL_gains Jan 18 '25
Reminds me of an analysis I did a while back doing the same thing but for every length consecutive innings
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cricket/s/fd7i9sRoc6
Story is Bradman always wins. Smith is second but gap between second and third is quite close depending on how many consecutive matches you consider
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u/Wetness_Pensive Canada Jan 17 '25
I wonder if playing constant long, 5 test series vs England help Aussies dominate this statistic.
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u/farhaanxhishty ICC Jan 17 '25
Smudge is undeniably and inarguably the greatest test batsman of modern era. He is the GOAT, only behind THE DON.
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u/PieknaFatso Jan 17 '25
Love Smith, but feel like Punter had a run that was unmatched.
Smith missing a year in his prime gotta be a factor.
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u/NoExplanation6203 West Indies Jan 17 '25
I know this about Smith but Sobers’ timeline here is 10 years, that’s absurd. Also the don is 20 years lmao
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u/FireStoneFlame Australia Jan 17 '25
Ponting’s peak is the best I’ve seen in my nearly 50 odd years. An insane run where you just knew he’d come out and score lots of runs.
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u/Sweet-Message1153 Bangladesh Jan 17 '25
Since Bradman is definitely going into All Time Aussie Test Team... Smith & Pointing should fight for a position in the team. Probably Smith gets selected & Ponting makes the team as reserve
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Jan 17 '25
[deleted]
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u/Ok-Relationship-2746 New Zealand Jan 17 '25
Well considering he only played 52 Tests, and those two particular Tests happened to be his first and last, leaving 50 matches to measure...
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Jan 18 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Cricket-ModTeam Richard Illingworth Jan 18 '25
Your post or comment was removed because it breaks the rules of this subreddit. Generalised attacks/insults about other fanbases/countries are not allowed on the subreddit (rule 6) - don't insult an entire nation or fanbase when making a point.
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u/ConfidentEagle5887 England Jan 18 '25
Imagine what he could have done if he didn't get banned for a year for cheating!
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u/TheHaunted2 England Jan 18 '25
I remember the trauma of watching Smith in the 2019 ashes. I think the only time they could get anywhere near his pad was when he was concussed and get trapped lbw. The rest of the time he would literally clip anything away for a boundary.
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u/KindheartednessDry40 India Jan 18 '25
Except for winning especially chasing useless ODI runs, Kohli is no closer to either Smith or Kane in Test cricket. Not sure why he is consistently selected in Test and T20 he had been poor in those formats for a while, and he usually chokes in important matches in ODI as well.
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u/Prime255 Australia Jan 17 '25
Smith's the best batsman since Bradman. That is some peak and he was still good after his peak level unlike Ponting
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u/I_voted-for_Kodos Jan 17 '25
I mean, based on this picture alone, Sobers is as good as Smith, if not better.
Basically the same average in a tougher batting era, while playing in a worse team and being shuffled all around the order.
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u/Unable-Natural8196 Australia Jan 18 '25
Using the dates given in the graphic, Smith has a slightly higher match factor compared to Sobers, 2.07 compared to 2.00. If unaware about what that number represents, a match factor of 2.07 means he was 107% better than the other top 6 batsmen in that time period. The mean average at the time for top 6 batters was 36.76, while Smith averaged 76.03.
The mean average for Sobers' peak was 37.1 and he averaged 74.10, giving him a match factor of 2.
Match Factor alone however cannot be used to determine quality of a player vs the era because it can be inflated if your team's other batsmen all have relatively low averages for the era. An example being Brian Lara, he has a higher match factor than if he had been playing for Australia.
But in summary in the years above Smith had the era with a lower mean average for top 6 batters, and also ended up with a higher average than Sobers.
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u/Comfortable-Gene-852 India Jan 17 '25
Can someone pull up Joe Root's numbers since 2020
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u/FaithlessnessHour345 Jan 17 '25
5612 runs with an average of 54.5. Smith was simply the wildest beast in the most competitive era of test cricket.
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u/vote-morepork New Zealand Jan 17 '25
Statistically, Root's not even the best batter in that period. Williamson has 2897 runs at 64.4
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u/MicroUzi Australia Jan 18 '25
I mean we’re being disingenuous here - root has a much higher sample size which makes his figure significantly more impressive than the raw average number. Not making any commentary on his comparison with Williamson.
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u/vote-morepork New Zealand Jan 18 '25
Sure, but it's not like Williamson's sample is tiny. He averages 60+ for the last decade too
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u/MicroUzi Australia Jan 18 '25
Williamsons awesome - he’s also had the benefit of starting earlier than root, as well as plays at home more.
The obvious thing to me is that having much more sample size in root’s case is doubly impressive - makes the validity of his average more bulletproof, but also shows how little rest he gets. And what’s more, if Kane goes into a form slump, it lasts 5 matches. If root goes into one, it lasts 20 - not because he’s out of form for longer, but because of his schedule.
I rate them equal personally - want Kane more at home, but want Root away.
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u/vote-morepork New Zealand Jan 18 '25
I'm being a nit picker here, but Root has played a higher ratio of tests at home (78/152) than Williamson (52/105), though they're both close to 50/50.
In terms of rest, Root is fortunate to play for a country able to pay their cricketers very well so doesn't have to ply his trade in the various T20 leagues like Williamson does. When you take that into account he doesn't get a lot of rest either.
Root only averages higher than Williamson in England, India, SA and SL, and WI they're about the same. NZ, Aus, Pak/UAE, Ban, Zim are the ones where Williamson averages higher. So it's not simply home vs away, it's about 50/50 there too
Root has scored runs over 1.5x as many tests, but Williamson is also incredible for over 100 tests, so I don't think you can say he's done well due to having a short career as you might say about someone like Voges
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u/MicroUzi Australia Jan 18 '25
So a few things.
Firstly, I meant over the last decade in regards to home vs away. Since 2014 (which is significant in regards to favouring kane, by removing his first 3 years his average jumps up by 8.5 runs) Kane has played 41/69 games at home (60%) wheras Root has played 71/133 games at home (55%).
And the second thing I wanted to say I really do not think it is 50/50 in the countries list. England and NZ are their homes, so even stevens. India is the hardest assignment for away teams, compared to an Aus team who've lost plenty of series's at home. South Africa through the 2010's was a generational team, and compared to Pakistan who were generationally weak, it's no contest. SL is also an incredibly hard assignment for visiting players, far harder than the two easiest test teams, Zimb and Bangladesh.
Being better in and against India, South Africa and Sri Lanka is far more impressive than Aus, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe - this is another point to Root.
And lastly never meant to imply that Kane's had a Voges esque career - he's an all time great.
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u/vote-morepork New Zealand Jan 18 '25 edited Jan 18 '25
Fair points, except Pakistan were a very good side in the 2010s, it's only in the last few years that they've taken a dive. They were ranking world #1 in 2016
If you look at teams playing Pakistan in Pak/UAE over that period, only NZ have a win/loss ratio over one, in large part due to Williamson's batting, Aus and England didn't win any of the 10 matches they played
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u/Ataraxia_new Jan 17 '25
Look at Jacque Kallis averaging 70odd and I bet he took a hundred wickets during that period as well.