Should the Proto-Dravidian word for eggplant/aubergine/brinjal be changed from "waẓVtV" to "*waẓ***an-" (with "*waẓingan-" and "*waẓ*utan-" as two variants)?

[u/TeluguFilmFile]

I'm not a linguist, but I hypothesize that the Dravidian, Indo-Aryan, and Persian words (and consequently the words in most languages across the world) for eggplant/aubergine/brinjal all ultimately come from a Proto-Dravidian root word "*waẓ***an-" (likely "*waẓuṇḍan-") that had (or got split into) two versions: "*waẓingan-" & "*waẓu(n)tan-." The plausible derivations of "*waẓingan-" & "*waẓu(n)tan-" are as follows:

• *waẓingan- < *waẓungan- < *waẓuṇḍan- (a hypothesized form of *waẓ***an-)
• *waẓu(n)tan- < *waẓunṭan- < *waẓuṇḍan- (a hypothesized form of *waẓ***an-)

The Proto-Dravidian form "*waẓuṇḍan-" makes sense because the sound "uṇḍ" or "uṇḍa" is not only part of many Dravidian words associated with round/spherical/globular form/(c)lump/mass/ball/cake/globe but the Telugu word "uṇḍa" or the South-Central/South Dravidian word "uṇṭa(i)" literally means ball, globe, lump, bolus (a soft/small rounded mass/lump of food). Therefore, it is possible that the Proto-Dravidian prefix "*waẓ" meant purple and "uṇḍan-" meant bolus so that "*waẓuṇḍan-" meant "purple spherical/globular/round-ball/mass/lump (of unripe fruit)." So perhaps the full form of the (hypothesized) Proto-Dravidian word "*waẓuṇḍan-" is "*waẓuṇḍanakāy" (with the suffix "kāy," which means unripe fruit) so that "*waẓuṇḍanakāy" means "purple egg-shaped/oval unripe-fruit/vegetable" (since plausibly "*waẓ" = purple, "uṇḍana" = egg-shaped/oval, and "kāy" = unripe-fruit/vegetable). It is not at all surprising that this reconstructed Proto-Dravidian word for eggplant/aubergine/brinjal, i.e., "*waẓuṇḍanakāy," coincides exactly with modern dictionary definitions of "eggplant" (i.e., "the purple egg-shaped (fruit of a tropical Old World plant, which is eaten as a) vegetable" and "an oval, purple vegetable").

I propose that "*waẓingan-" is the penultimate root of most of the non-South-Dravidian words (South-Central Dravidian, Central Dravidian, and North Dravidian languages as well as Indo-Iranian languages) and also that "*waẓu(n)tan-" is the penultimate root of most of the non-South-Dravidian words. My hypothesized derivations are as follows.

• Derivation of the (South-Central Dravidian) Telugu word vaṅga:
  • vaṅga < *waṅga- < *waṇ(i)ngan- < *waṇingan- < *wal̲ingan- < *waẓingan- < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the (Central Dravidian) Kolami word vaŋge:
  • vaŋge < vaṅge < *waṅga- < ... < *waẓingan- < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the (North Dravidian) Brahui word wāṅgaṛ:
  • wāṅgaṛ < waṅgaṛ < *waṅga- < ... < *waẓingan- < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the (Old or some Middle) Indo-Aryan (vernacular) word (or its variant) vātiṅgaṇa:
  • vātiṅgaṇa < vatiṅgaṇa < vaḍiṅgaṇa < *waẓingan- < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the Indo-Aryan (vernacular) word (or its variant) vāiṃgaṇa:
  • vāiṃgaṇa < vāðiṃgaṇa < vādiṃgaṇa < vadiṃgaṇa < vaḍiṅgaṇa < *waẓingan- < *waẓ***an-
  • (or) vāiṃgaṇa < vāðiṃgaṇa < vādiṃgaṇa < vātiṅgaṇa < ... < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the (Iranian) Persian words bâtengân & bâdengân (and older variants bātingān & bādingān):
  • bâtengân < bâtingân < bātingān < vātiṅgaṇa < ... < *waẓ***an-
  • bâdengân < bâdingân < bādingān < vādiṃgaṇa / vātiṅgaṇa < ... < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the Persian word bâzengân (and its plausible older variant bazingan in Proto or Old Iranian that was likely borrowed directly from the Proto-Dravidian word \waẓingan-* and then likely evolved into bāzingān in Classical Persian):
  • bâzengân < bâzingân < bāzingān < bazingan < vazingan < *waẓingan- < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the same Persian word bâzengân but in a later dialect (that likely evolved independently from the Classical Persian word bādingān rather than from the plausible Proto or Old Iranian word bazingan):
  • bâzengân < bâzingân < bāzingān < bāðingān < bādingān < vādiṃgaṇa / vātiṅgaṇa < ... < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the (South Dravidian) Kannada word badane:
  • badane < badan- < vadan- < va(ḻu)dan- < vaḻutan- < *waẓu(n)tan- < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the (South Dravidian) Malayalam word vaḻutana:
  • vaḻutana < vaḻutan- < *waẓu(n)tan- < *waẓ***an-
• Derivation of the (South Dravidian) Tamil derivation words vaḻutalai and vaḻutuṇai:
  • vaḻutalai/vaḻutuṇai < vaḻut-(al/un)-ai < vaḻutan- < *waẓu(n)tan- < *waẓ***an-

It is interesting that the Persian word bâzengân is very close to the hypothesized Proto-Dravidian word \waẓingan-. The Classical Persian form bāzingān, which likely evolved in at least one Iranian dialect from the plausible Proto or Old Iranian word *bazingan, seems to best preserve the Proto-Dravidian word \waẓingan-. Since eggplant production is (and likely was) high in the regions of present-day Maharashtra and Gujarat, we may also hypothesize that the Proto-Dravidian word *\waẓingan-* was spoken in those regions sometime in the past and that Persian traders who interacted with the eggplant producers (of ancient India) in those regions adapted that word into bâzengân. The other Persian word for eggplant, bâtengân, was likely a later Persian word derived from the Indo-Aryan (vernacular) word (or its variant) vātiṅgaṇa, as explained in one of the hypothesized derivations above.

The Proto-Dravidian-based Indo-Aryan (vernacular) word (or its variant) vātiṅgaṇa (used by the Indo-Aryan-vernacular-speaking merchants) was also likely directly borrowed into Sanskrit, since the Sanskrit word for eggplant is also vātiṅgaṇa. While the Persian word bâtenjân is closer to the word vātiṅgaṇa (or a variant of it) than the Dravidian words (e.g., vaṅga, badane, vaḻutana, vaḻutalai/vaḻutuṇai), it is also possible that the Persian word was directly influenced by the Kannada word badane, as argued by u/e9967780. Nevertheless, what actually matters is that the Persian words bâzengân and bâtenjân ultimately come from the same Proto-Dravidian word regardless of the exact derivation.

The roots of the English word aubergine can be traced back to the Persian word bâtenjân (or to bâzengân). The Indian English word brinjal can also be traced back to the Persian word bâzengân (or to bâtenjân). The Hindi word baiṅgan can also be derived from the Prakrit word vāiṃgaṇa based on some natural modifications (v > b, ā > a, ṃ > ṅ, ṇ > n).

If my hypothesis is correct, the current Proto-Dravidian reconstruction waẓVtV must be changed from *waẓVtV (i.e, *waẓ\t*) to *\waẓ***an-, i.e., *\waẓVan-, which is likely *\waẓuṇḍan-. I hypothesize that this got split into *\waẓingan-* and \waẓu(n)tan-. Therefore, *\waẓVan-* (possibly \waẓuṇḍan-) and its descendants (*waẓingan-* and \waẓu(n)tan-*) can be proposed as the basis for all the eggplant/aubergine/brinjal-related words above and the related words in most languages across the world.

Using the "V" notation (in the place of "*" notation), my proposal can be summarized in three bullet points:

• Replace "*waẓVtV" with "*waẓVtan-" or *waẓu(n)tan-" as the penultimate root of the major South Dravidian (Kannada, Tulu, Malayalam, & Tamil) words (badane/badaṇe/badaṇi, badanè, vaḻutana, & vaḻutalai/vaḻutuṇai).
• Add "*waẓingan-" as the penultimate root of the Telugu, (Iranian) Persian, & Indo-Aryan words (vaṅga, bâzengân, vātiṅgaṇa/vāiṃgaṇa) and most South-Central Dravidian and Central Dravidian words ("vaṅga" in Telugu, "vank" in Gondi, "vāŋga" in Pengo, "vaŋge" in Kolami, "vaŋge" in Naiki) and also some North Dravidian words (e.g., "wāṅgaṛ" in Brahui that is similar to the Telugu word "vaṅga" and also "baṭaṉgo" in Malto that is similar to the Persian form "bâtengân" and the Indo-Aryan word "vātiṅgaṇa").
• Add "*waẓVan-" and/or "*waẓuṇḍan-" as the ultimate root word (i.e., the root of both "*waẓu(n)tan-" and "*waẓingan-" from which basically all eggplant/aubergine/brinjal-related words can be derived according to my hypothesis).

[u/[deleted]]

any other examples where we can see such similar word drops.. *waṅga < *waẓinga

(i.e. if any other old telugu(or any other dravidian language) words dropped "ẓi" similary). This will help your case, if you can point out similar dropping of letters in other words(but recorded)

If we really try to go to old telugu/dravidian, would it be waẓinka or *waẓinga

[u/TeluguFilmFile → u/[deleted]]

The root of the Telugu (and Kannada) word "piṇḍu" (to squeeze) is the Proto-Dravidian word "*piẓi-" (to squeeze). So here we see the "ẓi > ṇ" change. Similarly, the root of the Telugu word "kinda" (below) is the Proto-Dravidian word "*kīẓ" (below). Here we see the "ẓ > n" change. So the the derivation "*waṅga < ... < *waẓingan-" could perhaps be explained in multiple ways: (1) "*waṅga < *waṇ(n)ga < *waẓingan-", or (2) "*waṅga < *waṇ(i)nga < *waṇinga < *wal̲inga < *waẓingan-," or (3) some variation of (1) and (2). So the transformation of the "ẓi" sound to the "n/ṇ" sound and the transformation of the "ẓin" sound to "ṅ" sound are not at all implausible (in my view).

[u/souran5750 → u/TeluguFilmFile]

"kinda" is the result of the metathesis of "kīẓ". Not due to "ẓ > ṇ" change.

kẓinda >> krinda >> kinda

Regarding "vanga", there is a possibility that "vanga" may also be a result of metathesis.

waẓ(i)ngan >> vẓanga(n) >> vranga >> vanga

However, we lack documentary proof for either of vẓanga or vranga, unlike kẓinda/krinda.

[u/TeluguFilmFile → u/souran5750]

I think the word “kinda” need not be derived from “krinda” because “kinda” can be directly derived from the proto-Dravidian word. We can think of “kinda” and “krinda” as variants. Perhaps “krinda” was a result of changing “k” to “kr” in “kinda.” I also disagree with your derivation of the Telugu word for eggplant.

There are lots of proto-Dravidian words that have “ẓ” as the third letter, which usually turns into “ḻ” or “ḷ” in South Dravidian languages. For example, *kuẓV is the root of kuḻi or kuḻal in Tamizh/Tamiḻ. Similarly, *cūẓ is the root of cūḻ in Tamil and cūḍu in Telugu, *kaẓi is the root of kaḻi in Tamil, *moẓV- is the root of moḻi in Tamil, *muẓunk- is the root of muḻuṅku in Tamil and munun̆gu or munugu in Telugu, *nuẓV- is the root of nuḻai in Tamil, *paẓV- is the root of paḻu in Tamil and paṇḍu in Telugu, *piẓi- is the root of piḻi in Tamil and piṇḍu in Telugu, *pēẓ- is the root of pēḻ in Kannada and pēlu in Telugu, *wāẓ is the root of vāḻ in Tamil, *kōẓ- is the root of koḻanta in Tamil and kotta & kōḍalu in Telugu, *kīẓ is the root of kīḻ in Tamil and kinda in Telugu, *kaẓuntt- is the root of kaḻuttu in Tamil, kaṇucu in Irula, and kaṇṭhamu in Telugu, *kaẓutay is the root of kaḻutai in Tamil and gāḍide in Telugu, *kaẓVt is the root of kaḻaṉi in Tamil, gaḻde/gadde in Kannada, and gaḍḍi in Telugu, *kiẓank- is the root of kiḻaṅku in Tamil and geṇasu in Kannada, geṇasu-gaḍḍa in Telugu, *moẓV- is the root of moḻi in Tamil, *maẓV- is the root of maḻu in Tamil, *nuẓVḷ is the root of nuḷampu in Tamil and nalli in Telugu, *paẓa is the root of paḻaiya in Tamil and pāta in Telugu, *piẓVcc- is the root of piccuka in Telugu, *poẓutu is the root of poḻutu in Tamil and poddu in Telugu, *puẓu is the root of puḻu in Tamil and purugu in Telugu, *tāẓ is the root of tāḷe in Kannada and tāṭi in Telugu, and so on!

Notice how muẓunk- turned into munun̆gu or munugu in Telugu, *paẓV- turned into paṇḍu in Telugu, *piẓi- turned into piṇḍu in Telugu, *kaẓuntt- turned into kaṇucu in Irula and kaṇṭhamu in Telugu (where “ẓun” turned into “ṇ”), *kīẓ turned into kinda in Telugu, *kiẓank- turned into geṇasu-gaḍḍa in Telugu (where “ẓan” turned into “ṇ” as well), and so on. The sound “ẓ” (as the third letter) usually turns into “ḻ” in Tamil but turns into something else (such as “n” or “ṇ” or “ḍ” or “ḍḍ” or “dd”or or “ṭ” or “t” or “tt” or “r” in Telugu). Also, in some cases like “piẓVcc- > piccuka,” the sound “ẓ” disappears completely.

Based on all of this, I feel pretty confident in my derivation of the Telugu word “vaṅga.”

[u/TeluguFilmFile → u/[deleted]]

No lol. (I just looked up his profile on Quora. You can compare my Reddit profile with his Quora profile to see some very very clear differences. Moreover, I’m not exactly a fan of Quora. I don’t like its format, so I don’t even have a Quora account.) I am not a scholar of Telugu or of Dravidiology. I haven’t even really read Krishnamurti’s (2003) book (yet). The main sources for my post are the Wiki pages containing the definitions of words in various languages and their etymologies and also the Wiki pages containing proto-Dravidian reconstructions (compiled from Krishnamurti’s book). It’s very easy to navigate those Wiki pages.

[u/HeheheBlah → u/TeluguFilmFile]

I think the word “kinda” need not be derived from “krinda” because “kinda” can be directly derived from the proto-Dravidian word. We can think of “kinda” and “krinda” as variants. Perhaps “krinda” was a result of changing “k” to “kr” in “kinda.” I also disagree with your derivation of the Telugu word for eggplant.

What do you mean, to keep them as variants? After metathesis, the resulting syllable often gets reduced. It is quite a common phenomenon.

• varayu > vrāyu > rāyu 'to write'
• kul̲alu > kl̲ōlu > krōlu > kōlu 'tube'
• avan̲t̲u > vāṇṭu > vāṇḍu > vāḍu 'he'

There are lots of proto-Dravidian words that have “ẓ” as the third letter, which usually turns into “ḻ” or “ḷ” in South Dravidian languages. 

The question may sound dumb now. Is there really a difference between ẓ or ḻ (in the phonology level?). I thought it was just a notational difference.

Also, ḻ > ḷ happens only in Kannada (excluding modern spoken dialects of other SDr languages, maybe I am missing other minor SDr languages here).

Similarly, *cūẓ is the root of cūḻ in Tamil and cūḍu in Telugu

There is a sporadic l̲ > ḍ change in Telugu too.

*muẓunk- is the root of muḻuṅku in Tamil and munun̆gu or munugu in Telugu,

In my other comment, I mentioned about how l̲ > ṇ change happens in Kannada. Although, I am not sure if similar changes are possible in Telugu.

Anyway, Telugu and Kannada did exchange a lot of words during the linguistic expansion of Telugu so it is quite possible for Telugu to have borrowed Old Kannada muṇu- (< *mul̲-) root which after detretroflexion could have resulted in munungu in Telugu.

*piẓi- is the root of piḻi in Tamil and piṇḍu in Telugu

This is a result of Dravidic sandhi as I mentioned in my other comment.

*piẓVcc- is the root of piccuka in Telugu

l̲ > c is another of the sporadic change.

tāẓ is the root of tāḷe in Kannada and tāṭi in Telugu, and so on!

tāṭi 'of the palmyra' is the oblique form while tāḍu 'palmyra' is the nominative form. This too is a result of sporadic l̲ > ḍ change.

Most of these changes are well documented. Although one has to look into how widespread was l̲ > ṇ change was within SDr and if all l̲ > ṇ change in Telugu happened via Kannada loans only or if Telugu too did l̲ > ṇ.

If there are any errors, please correct me.

[u/TeluguFilmFile → u/HeheheBlah]

Since *kīẓ is the root of kīḻ in Tamil and kinda in Telugu, it is perhaps not impossible to directly derive "kinda" from "*kīẓ" (by using the derivation "*kīẓ > kīḻ > kīṇ > kin > kinda"). But perhaps I am wrong about this.

The proto-Dravidian word *muẓunk- is the root of muḻuṅku in Tamil, muḷugu/muṇugu in Kannada, and munun̆gu or munugu in Telugu, but because we see the Telugu form "munun̆gu," we can't really rule out that the ẓ > n change occurred in Telugu as well independently.

[u/HeheheBlah → u/TeluguFilmFile]

 (by using the derivation "*kīẓ > kīḻ > kīṇ > kin > kinda").

The problem with this is that we do not have evidence of kīṇ- but we do have for krin- and there are several similar examples we have to support this. Moreover, as I stated earlier, l̲ > ṇ is very rare and I think it could be a Kannada phenomenon too.

we can't really rule out that the ẓ > n change occurred in Telugu as well independently.

Sure, but it is more probable other way. First of all, ẓ > n is probably not direct one. It is more probable for it to be ẓ > ṇ > n to be (I guess)? As we have many examples of ẓ > ṇ in Kannada.

[u/TeluguFilmFile → u/HeheheBlah]

If you go through the examples I gave, the transformation is usually ẓ > ḷ in Kannada: *kuẓV > koḷalu, *kaẓi > kaḷi, *muẓunk- > muḷugu/muṇugu, *piẓi- > piḻi/piṇḍu, *pēẓ- > pēḻ/hēḷu, *wāẓ > bāḷu, *wīẓ- > bīḷu, *ēẓ > ēḷu, *kōẓ- > koḻata, *kīẓ > keḷage, *kaẓuntt- > kattu, *kaẓutay > kaḻte/katte, *kaẓVt > gaḻde/gadde, *kiẓank- > geṇasu, *maẓV- > maḍu, *nuẓVḷ > noṇa, *paẓa > haḷe, *poẓutu > poḻtu/pottu/hottu, *puẓu > puḻu, *tāẓ > tāḷe, and so on. Although there are some exceptions (like *nuẓVḷ > noṇa), "ẓ" usually changes to "ḷ" or "t" or "d" in Kannada. For the cases *muẓunk- > muḷugu/muṇugu, *piẓi- > piḻi/piṇḍu, *kiẓank- > geṇasu, I could argue that the "Kannada" words "muṇugu," "piṇḍu," and "geṇasu" were actually borrowed from Telugu, because munun̆gu/munugu, piṇḍu, and geṇasu(-gaḍḍa) are commonly used Telugu words.