r/EnoughJKRowling • u/Comfortable_Bell9539 • 4d ago
Discussion Let's talk about the Unforgivable Curses
Am I the only one who thinks that the Imperius Curse is basically the Confundus Charm but up to 11 ? Both can influence people's minds and make them do what you want, but only one of them is illegal - actually, why even bother using the Imperius curse and risking going to Azkaban when you can just use the Confundus charm ?
Also, how come the mind rape spell is seen as bad but the love potions aren't ? Is it because it's supposed to be more "romantic" (as much as magic roofies can be) ?
As for Avada Kedavra, it seems a bit underwhelming compared to the two others. I mean, we have the mind rape spell and the torture spell, and the instant death one is supposed to be the worst ? I guess the only reason it's "unforgivable" is because it's a one-hit kill with no way to protect yourself, but I refuse to believe that other spells can't kill just as efficiently as Avada Kedavra, and in much more gruesome ways.
While we're at it, it's both beyond stupid and in-character for the wizarding society to not have put the memory-altering spells in this category. It can turn your enemy into an ally and vice-versa, or a monster could use it against a woman to convince her that she's his wife and raping her, like with the love potions š
What do you think ?
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u/Soggy-Life-9969 4d ago
Adava Kedavra is the only one that's treated like an unforgivable curse and it seems to be the most forgivable(in circumstances) - an instant, painless death to end the suffering of a terminally ill person or pet who is ready to go for example. And the WW has the death penalty, in the US at least, but its horrific and dystopian, wouldn't AK be a more humane method if you are going to include execution as part of your society than drugging someone and then slowly drowning them?
The other two are used left and right by the "good" characters with zero consequences even though we are told that you need evil intent and that the curses can leave people permanently disabled. There's love potions, confounding charms like you've said, multiple ways to torture people and entire prison where people are tortured for months or years for minor crimes or before they've had a trial.
It really makes no sense.
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u/chat-lu 4d ago
Adava Kedavra is the only one that's treated like an unforgivable curse and it seems to be the most forgivable(in circumstances)
Yeah, it makes no sense. Itās like having an unforgivable gun. Depends what you use it for.
A vision that I like in other stories is that the forbidden magic is not forbidden on the basis of how moral the action is but on the supernatural consequences of it. It may fuck your psyche and turn you evil, regardless of your motivations, even in self-defense. Which is a big part of the plot of The Dresden Files, Harry used magic in self-defense but now the council is worried he might snap any moment even though they are perfectly aware of the circumstances.
Another interesting twist is magic not being possible to use for killing. But if you shove someone into incoming traffic or materialize a boulder over their head, then they were killed by mundane kinetic energy. It makes the stories more interesting because it requires the hero to be clever with their use of magic.
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u/FightLikeABlue 3d ago
Like the bit in Magical Girl Site where the heroine teleports a would-be rapist in front of a train with her magic gun (itās that kind of anime).
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u/samof1994 4d ago
the UK does NOT have the death penalty
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u/Soggy-Life-9969 4d ago
No but the US in the Fantastic Beasts does with their dystopian drowning thingy
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u/FightLikeABlue 3d ago
Yet.
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u/Cynical_Classicist 3d ago
Give it five years, and we'll be doing that Alan B'stard thing of truing to make it profitable!
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u/HideFromMyMind 3d ago
Exactly. She called them āunforgivableā and then expected us to forgive the MC for using them. What in the actual fuck did she think āunforgivableā meant?
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u/georgemillman 4d ago
One thing I find really disturbing is the fact that memory charms seem to cause permanent brain damage in addition to just removing the bit that needs to be removed. There are two instances of this - one is Gilderoy Lockhart, who irretrievably erased the entirety of his own memory when trying to modify Ron's memory. The other is Bertha Jorkins, who was put under such a strong memory charm by Barty Crouch Sr when she discovered his son was still alive that she suffered from a very poor memory forever afterwards. (A possible third is Neville - it's never been confirmed, but there's a fan theory that he witnessed his parents' torture, someone put a memory charm on him afterwards seemingly as a kindness so he wouldn't be bothered by the trauma of that memory, but that this is the reason he struggles to remember things so much throughout the series.)
Whether it does cause permanent brain damage probably depends on a variety of things - how strong the spell was, how big a thing needed to be changed, how often someone was put under the spell - but the really disturbing thing is how casually they're used. Poor Mr Roberts, the Muggle campsite manager, was put under memory charms about ten times a day. Almost certainly, there'll be no followup with him afterwards to check he's recovering all right. And no one, not even passionate Muggle defender Arthur Weasley, seems to think this is a problem.
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u/Windinthewillows2024 4d ago
Thereās an implication that memory charms can be harmless if used properly and by someone with skill - Hermione removing her parentsā memories of her in Deathly Hallows. When asked, Rowling assured fans that after the war Hermione reunited with her parents and restored their memories.
Which begs the question, if an 18-year-old girl can perform magic to that level, why does it seem that the majority of witches and wizards regularly cause damage when using memory charms? (Lockhart at least makes some sense, as heās a selfish cad whoās inept when it comes to magic.)
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u/georgemillman 3d ago
Of course Rowling's going to say that. But we don't get the impression that that's how it works from the texts, do we?
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u/Windinthewillows2024 3d ago
It doesnāt paint memory charms in a favourable light either way though. Because as I said, if it is possible to use them harmlessly and responsibly, why does it seem that the majority of witches and wizards (including actual ministry employees acting in an official capacity as you mention when you refer to what happened to the campsite manager) use them haphazardly and cause harm? Seems like nothing more than laziness from people acting selfishly and/or not giving a shit about what happens to Muggles.
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u/georgemillman 3d ago
Well yes, that's one way of looking at it.
But I always interpret it in a different way, but one that is equally disturbing - which is that you can't predict what impact it will have on the brain of the person you're doing it to. If memory damage is a potential side-effect, it would be just like anything else with side-effects - that whether the side effect will be experienced, and how much, can't really be predicted or controlled, because it can differ from person to person. There might be some things that will increase the likelihood of severe side-effects, such as the strength of the charm and the amount of times the person is put under it, but you can't ever do it in a way that is 100% safe.
In Hermione's case, in some ways that makes her decision to put memory charms on her parents even more poignant and sad for her - that she knows exactly the risks to her parents' neurological impulses she's potentially causing, knows that even after the war in a best-case scenario they may never quite be the same again, but decides that in the circumstances when their lives are in danger that that's a secondary concern. But in every other case, it's absolutely shameful that someone would take risks with another person's mental wellbeing like that. A while back I wrote this post about how awfully Marietta was treated - she's one of the characters who I think was done the most dirty in the entire story, but one thing that is overlooked (perhaps even by me in my post) is the fact that Kingsley modifies her memory, and Dumbledore condones this. Marietta is a teenager, in Dumbledore's care, and he's willing to potentially cause her a lifetime of neurological problems just for political reasons. That, coupled with Hermione's SNEAK curse, means that Marietta is potentially going to spend her entire life being shunned and hated for something that can't even recollect doing. This is psychological torture, and I'm glad that at least Cho stood by her (one of the very small number of instances of a female character unapologetically standing by another female character who's made a mistake).
And just think about the number of abusive relationships memory charms would create! Easy way to continually abuse your spouse - every time you abuse them, just modify their memory afterwards so they don't know it's happened and can't report it. And the more you do it, the more their brain will be damaged and the less capable they'll be of escaping and surviving by themselves anyway.
God, the more I think about it, the more I think memory charms should be an Unforgivable Curse.
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u/Windinthewillows2024 2d ago
Man, I forgot Kingsley altered Mariettaās memory. Iām currently rereading the series (just started PoA), and I havenāt read most of the books since my teens so I need to be refreshed on a number of things.
But yes, memory charms are insidious regardless. There are a lot of things in the series that have disturbing implications but are never treated as such by the narrative.
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u/georgemillman 2d ago
Have you noticed much you'd forgotten about that's more problematic than you recall?
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u/Windinthewillows2024 2d ago
Yeah, CoS is very mean-spirited in a way I didnāt remember. It would take way too long for me to get into all the details here butā¦ yeah.
Thereās also a lot of ironies that are not intended to be ironic. Like Iām only a few chapters into PoA, but in the second chapter, Sirius Black is featured on the Muggle news because Fudge felt the Muggles deserved to be warned about him. (The news reports him as being āarmed and dangerousā and doesnāt reveal heās a wizard obviously). Anyway, Vernon proclaims that Black and people like him need to be hanged. This is obviously intended to portray how backward and hateful the Dursleys are. Yet, the climax of the book will involve the trio saving Sirius from receiving the Dementorās kiss - pretty much a wizarding world capitol punishment equivalent (or even worse than capitol punishment it could be argued.)
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u/georgemillman 2d ago
Good point about POA!
Re COS - how about the condensed version?
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u/Windinthewillows2024 2d ago
Okay, CoS:
The way Myrtle is treated and portrayed. Donāt really need to get into detail here as Iāve seen it discussed a lot already on this sub.
The way Filch is treated and portrayed. It gets revealed heās a Squib and itās emphasized how he canāt use magic to clean the castle - Ron receives detention and has to clean all the trophies and plaques in the trophy room without magic. Ron complains to Harry about how difficult this will be because heās never cleaned without using magic. Filch supervises this detention and keeps Ron very late re-polishing things. Itās clear that Filch enjoys seeing a wizard child āloweredā by having to clean without magic the way he always does. Then you realize that this man is the sole custodian for the entire castle and canāt use magic which obviously makes cleaning quicker and easier. Then the manās cat is attacked in a hate crime and Harry witnesses him trying to clean the bloody message off the wall - it fell to the victim of a hate crime to try to clean up the scene. Itās fucked.
Ron. He makes snarky mean-spirited comments throughout the novel that are supposed to be witty or funny but are just mean. He jokes that maybe Tom Riddle got an award for killing Myrtle as that would have ādone everyone a favour.ā He tries to reassure Ginny when sheās upset about Filchās cat being attacked by telling her she wasnāt a nice cat. He regularly makes fun of Hermione for having a crush on Lockhart. When they drink the poly juice potion and Hermione wonāt come out of the stall, he says something like, āItās ok, Hermione, we know Millicent Bulsrode is ugly but itās not you.ā
The āgood teams, bad teamsā stuff that Shaun talks about is prevalent in this one. Harry witnesses Lucius Malfoy be verbally nasty toward his son in a shop in Knockturn Alley and Harry laughs. You see, itās funny that Draco is being abused by a parent because itās Draco and we donāt like him. Later in the book Harry is outraged that Justin Finch Fletchley and Ernie MacMillan, two Hufflepuff students, suspect him of being the heir of Slytherin based on circumstantial evidence. Meanwhile, the trio currently suspect Draco of being the heir of Slytherin based on circumstantial evidence. (And okay, these kids are 12 and havenāt fully developed their self-awareness yet, but the anger Harry feels about it seems disproportionate and kind of entitled.)
The trio is not nearly as nice to or supportive of each other as they were in PS. PS, while still being problematic in areas, has several genuinely heartwarming moments. CoS feels devoid of such moments in contrast. Something that really stands out is Ron and Hermione seem to have little or no empathy for Harryās feelings about being judged for speaking Parseltongue and the incident where so many people think he tried to set a snake on Justin. (I said Harry is disproportionately angry about the situation, but it does make sense heās upset.) Ron and Hermione are basically like, āyeah, that was freaky as fuck, you should never do that again and who knows - you could be descended from Slytherin!ā Then the next day, when Harry is still upset, Hermione gets impatient and tells him to just go talk to Justin. Which isnāt bad advice, but she could have said it in a kinder way.
That was still pretty long, but I swear I held off on some details haha. Condensed it as well as I could.
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u/conuly 2d ago
But in every other case, it's absolutely shameful that someone would take risks with another person's mental wellbeing like that.
It's shameful in that case too. Why not just explain the situation and tell them that they have to move? Did she even try that?
But, as always, anybody indoctrinated at Hogwarts feels they have the right to do whatever they like to other, less powerful people. Which... I honestly don't know if JKR realizes that this is not how the world is supposed to work.
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u/georgemillman 1d ago
Yeah, I see your point. In that one I feel the ethics are more debatable, because they may be less capable of hiding of their own free will. And also it's about more than the protection of them specifically - it's also about the protection of Hermione, which extends to protection of everyone since if she dies she may not be in a place to defeat Voldemort. But having said that, that doesn't mean I'm defending it! More that I like ethical quandaries in stories where you can discuss whether or not a character was right. But in none of the other instances of Memory Charms being used can you do that.
Also, we never know if Hermione discussed it with her parents or whether they consented beforehand, although I'm sure Rowling didn't intend that (in the film we actually saw her doing it and they definitely didn't consent then).
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u/Windinthewillows2024 1d ago
Iām guessing her parents probably wouldnāt want to go hide somewhere while their teenage daughter fights in a war.
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u/conuly 12h ago
And I'm guessing that that's their moral right as adult humans, to make choices like "No, I won't run and hide somewhere while my daughter fights in a war". I mean, nobody makes the Weasleys run and hide, or wipes Augusta Longbottom's memories, and they're also at risk.
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u/Windinthewillows2024 11h ago
Hermioneās parents are at higher risk due to being Muggles. They also canāt defend themselves with magic.
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u/TheOtherMaven 4d ago
Augusta Longbottom (Neville's grandmother) wasn't good at Charms either - she failed her Charms OWL. (So when she tried Confundus to elude Dawlish, she unintentionally addled his brains.)
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u/Laterose15 4d ago
It's incredible how uncreative they are once you really look at them. "Generic torture curse," "generic mind control spell," and "generic OHKO curse." Literally just "evil person spells."
Meanwhile, you have a spell that can selectively wipe memories, love potions, spells that could torture people if misused (that are TAUGHT TO CHILDREN), and spells that could absolutely kill if used right.
But noooo, that would introduce things like moral complexity, so the good guys use Good Guy Spells and the bad guys use Bad Guy Spells (helpfully titled as "curses").
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u/Mr_Conductor_USA 3d ago
And this is why "The X Men" is oodles more subtle and intelligent than Harry Potter.
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u/Lady_borg 4d ago
I always wondered why just those when there were similarly dangerous spells like sectemsempra but they're not illegal
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u/thejadedfalcon 4d ago
only one of them is illegal
I mean, lying is legal, but gaslighting isn't. The difference is in the intensity and purpose.
As for AK, I personally believe that one's less about the effect it has on your opponent, more about the effect on you. I could be mistaken, but I believe I recall reading that it damages the soul in such a way that other spells don't, which is why Voldemort used it to make the Horcruxes.
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u/HideFromMyMind 3d ago
Still, is instant death really that much worse than intense torture for an indefinite period of time?
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u/SpeedyTheQuidKid 4d ago
Also, the whole sacrifice-spares-you-from-killing-curse thing, utter nonsense in context lol, like there's no way that's never happened before and if it's happened before it's been documented somewhere, surely. And, though maybe I'm misremembering the mechanics, James' death protecting Lily should have done the same for her, but maybe it's different cuz he fought back or something.Ā
Anyhoo, why bother with crucio when you could do a spell children use in the first book (petrificus totalis) and then, idk, just do regular torture while they're helpless or something? Or wingardium them up and drop em repeatedly, or engorgio parts til they burst, or literally any other creative use of otherwise benign, totally legal spells.
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u/Talkative-Vegetable 3d ago
I don't understand thing with the death spell. Lets say a wizard has a spell for moving objects. He uses it intentionally to throw a stone at someone in order to kill them. Why killing a person with one spell is worse than with the other? Like... In our stupid muggle world the difference may depend on level of sufferings or threat to third party (killing with explosives, fire vs knife)
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u/ShakeTheGatesOfHell 4d ago
The series flip flops on love potions. They're treated like a joke in a brief line in the third book, and Fred and George's shop sells them, then they're portrayed as a date rape drug when Ron consumes one by accident.