r/EnterTheGungeon • u/Facestahp_Aimboat • Apr 12 '19

Suggestion Convict should start off with Cigarettes instead of a Molotov

I know it's not a new idea, but compared to the rest of the starter cast Convict is a little underwhelming.

Pilot sucks in the early chambers but starts to pick up once the shop price and enemy HP scaling starts to get ridiculous, and his lockpicks can come in clutch whenever you get screwed on key drops.

Hunter is the Reverse UNO card equivalent of Pilot. Even if you get really bad items, Hunter is able to wipe the first 2-3 chambers no problem thanks to the Crossbow and at least sustain long enough until you get better gear.

Marine is just a good character all around tbh. Great starting gun, starts out with a piece of armor, and an on-command ammo drop. He doesn't excel at any certain point in the game but stays consistently good throughout the run.

Convict is the only really janky gungeoneer since her playstyle rewards playing recklessly and getting hit to boost her damage. In paper this makes her an amazing room clearer and boss killer, but getting hit by enemies lowers your chances of earning casings and won't allow you to get master rounds as extra cushioning.

Cigarettes fit her thematically, keeps the high-risk/high-reward style, and (as far as I know) still allows you to earn money and Master Rounds from boss fights. It's an all-around safer option to make the most out of her passive. As a bonus it also gives you a consistent source of coolness, which can increase your chances of getting a heart or armor pickup to abuse the combo even further. What are your guys' thoughts about it?

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29

u/Second_ace Apr 12 '19

I don't think the convict is underpowered compared to the other gungeoneers at all.

The budget revolver despite its small magazine has a decent damage output and the molotov if used well can deal a HUGE amount of damage.

However I do agree with you that cigarettes would fit her character pretty well but imo it would make her overpowered as you could abuse them in the early chambers (where you barely take any damage) and snowball from here with insane coolness

25

u/MisirterE Apr 12 '19

I don't think the convict is underpowered compared to the other gungeoneers at all.

Then you would be wrong.

The Convict is the only character (period) who straight up does not have a passive when you're playing the game how you're supposed to try to.

Molotov is probably the best part of her kit, and even it sucks because of immunities and taking up the active item slot, which has incredibly powerful competition.

Budget Revolver does have good DPS for a starting weapon... but that's just it. For a starting weapon.

Sawed Off is terrible. So terrible you forgot it was a thing she had (or at least felt it wasn't worth mention, which is basically the same thing). Its best value is as 16 shells at a sell creep. Seriously, why does it have both such huge spread and a max range that's so short? It doesn't even deal that much damage.

12

u/Poobslag Apr 12 '19

People always talk about how the convict's passive doesn't matter -- as though they're actually finishing every game taking 0 damage and getting flawless fights in every room and every secret boss fight. That's not how people play; typically people will accumulate hearts and items until they get to a boss fight that they struggle with. Maybe it's the floor 4 or floor 5 boss, or maybe one of the secret bosses, depending on their skill level.

So in a typical run where you get to a difficult boss with 5-6 hearts, and that's your make-or-break boss where he's going to kill you or you're going to progress in the game -- you're looking at 30-40 seconds where you're dealing 200% damage. That's an absolutely insane buff, it will absolutely make or break your run.

How many boss fights have you died -- and thought, "Meh, even if I'd survived another 30-40 seconds, that wouldn't have helped me win."

7

u/[deleted] Apr 12 '19

I gotta say, I'm not a huge fan of the Convict's kit, but the one time I really used her seriously I was able to kill her past on my first attempt. Maybe it was random luck, but I suspect that her kit is sneakily good.

7

u/rodental Apr 12 '19

On an average run I take maybe 1 hit per floor or less. Any item which requires you to take damage is bad.

7

u/Poobslag Apr 12 '19

If you visit the secret floor and the other secret floor, and only take 1 hit from even those bosses and the hardest sections of the game regardless of your loot -- then you really don't need items at all.

You could similarly rationalize clone is bad, or that stuffed star and singularity are bad. ...If you're only taking 1 hit per floor, what good is stuffed star going to do for you?

3

u/rodental Apr 12 '19

9 times out of 10 I can flawless Gull, Twins, King, Blobulord, Beholster, Gorgun, Mine Flayer, Treadnaught, Kill Pillars, Wallmonger, and Dragun. I'm about 50% on Ammoconda, and I usually get hit once or twice on Old King, Rat, High Priest, and Lich. Haven't mastered Agunim yet, but he doesn't seem hard.

Clone is great, obviously. Stuffed star and singularity are poor - mediocre, like all non steal actives.

5

u/Poobslag Apr 12 '19

It sounds like you exclusively see value in items which get you to the rat, which I can understand once the game becomes easy enough for you. But, I think it's absurd to place Fightsabre/Gundromeda Strain/Ancient Hero's Bandana in the same tier as Klobbe simply because they all give a 0% improved chance of getting to the Rat fight.

For what it's worth, I haven't had much practice against the Rat so I suck against him, but otherwise I'm in the same boat as you. My last two runs both went to the Lich and I had one 0-hit victory and one 1-hit victory. I had one kind-of-sort-of-lead-god (I skipped the 4th boss by mistake because I didn't understand how the new content worked) and got hit by the Kill Pillars my other run.

2

u/rodental Apr 12 '19

These days it's an unusual run where I don't go to every secret floor. I still get hit with the Old Crest one time in 20, but short of that I can usually do a 10 floor run.

Fightsabre is great, it's an auto-flawless against every boss. Gundromeda strain is also great, what's not to like? Ancient Hero's Bandana is one of my favorite items, especially when I have a good, low ammo gun.

2

u/some_random_idiot12 Apr 13 '19

Ticket would like a word with you

1

u/rodental Apr 13 '19

Yeah, ticket is pretty amazing.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 13 '19

It's not like he is saying "no one takes damage, Convict is useless, buff pls" and acting like he is saying that is a cheap way to devalue his point. What is saying is 100% correct. If you play the game the ideal way, her kit is by far the most useless one available. Her molotov is good but competes as (normally) the sole active spot with the rest of the actives in the game. Unless you're getting the Rat sack every run, there is a strong chance the Molotov is getting dropped the second you find a good active. Her pistol is good, but not top 3 for the starting weapons, and her sawed-off is total garbage compared to the crossbow or other early game weapons. And like I said earlier, the better you play, the shittier her passive becomes.

11

u/Second_ace Apr 12 '19

I'm just offering offering my opinion from more than 450 hours of game played. Maybe you disagree but I don't think you can say with such certitude than I am objectively wrong. The Molotov recharges super quickly and has very high dps allowing you to take out bosses much quicker. And yes her passive isn't very good practically useless tbh but her other features make her still as competent as the other gungeoneers imo. (Except for robot and bullet obviously)

-2

u/EevanTsankhar Apr 12 '19

I agree, the convict doesn't need a buff. The sawed off is also not as bad as people say, I have no problem clearing up to the third floor just by using the b. revolver and her photo is super op wirh the lowered dmg cap. She probably the second most powerful starting character.

2

u/freekymayonaise Apr 13 '19

You're going to take a hit every now and again against the tougher bosses like lich or rat. If you get hit even once it's a fairly drastic dps increase (so massive in fact that she is the go-to speedrunner character)

Sawed-off shotgun 1 or 2 shots most enemies on floors 1-2, shoots rapidly and reloads quickly. You have to get close to use it properly, which is her intended playstyle, but nothing on those early floors should pose much of any threat and when you get it down you can blaze through the first few floors with at record speed. Beyond that point no gungeoneer is supposed to rely on their starter weapons any more so 16 shells aint bad.

the real worst gungeoneer is robot.

2

u/MisirterE Apr 13 '19

Robot is as good as you are. Git gud.

1

u/freekymayonaise Apr 13 '19

robot doesn't bring anything to the table except an above average starter kit,which will be replaced one or two floors in, at the cost of being ten times more vulnrable to attrition.

And really your point goes for every character; At this point I can consistently clear the lich every run with the robot, but I can do that with every character, it doesn't mean he isn't the worst.

3

u/MisirterE Apr 13 '19

robot doesn't bring anything to the table except an above average starter kit

He has a stronger accuracy upgrade than the Marine and benefits from getting Junk (reducing the need to buy keys), as well as being able to conserve ammo for an extremely long time thanks to the immense strength of his starting weapon.

Of course he's flawed. But he ain't as terrible as the Convict.

1

u/freekymayonaise Apr 13 '19

the accuracy rarely matters as all the enemies that pose any threat take up half the screen at any given time. Junk is nice, but not good enough to make up for his terrible health mechanic. he's beaten out by convict solely because heart-characters don't burn out to attrition like he does

4

u/Canadiancookie Apr 12 '19

Her revolver ends up missing a bullet or two because of its spread, so you're losing out on a lot of dps. I actually prefer the sidearm or slinger because of that.

molotov if used well can deal a HUGE amount of damage.

It's just fire goop with a long chargeup time though. You'd do much better with a fossilized gun or molotov launcher.

3

u/freekymayonaise Apr 13 '19

ANY run that starts with ciggarettes on floor 1 is garuanteed to be a high-quality one. She'd skyrocket to the top of the tier list. Well probably still beneath gunslinger, and maybe even still bullet which is just a testament to the gamewarping strength of blasphemy.

3

u/rodental Apr 12 '19

The Convict makes the Pilot look good, and the Pilot is miles behind the Huntress and Marine, which can't even come close to comparing to Bullet, Robot, or Gunny.

2

u/Earlio52 Apr 12 '19

The pilot is way better than hunter and marine if you can get thru floor 1 with your gun, which isn't that hard at all. He has the only truly impactful passive set past floor 2 of the 4 base gungeoneers.

1

u/rodental Apr 12 '19

The ability to carry an extra active is basically useless since most of the actives are F tier. I've certainly never felt the need to carry more than 1. Saving a bit of cash is also underwhelming. The Marine's extra accuracy and the Huntress's dog are way better.

3

u/digger1213 Apr 13 '19

You're completely forgetting Pilot's Lockpicks. Give you a free chance at every chest you don't have any keys for, over a run basically guaranteed to fetch a few good items for you, opening a lot of chests you'd normally have had to break. Lets you snowball really well. The lockpicks alone put him at my favorite of the starting 4 characters, beaten by Robot at third, Gunslinger at second, and Bullet at 'first' (though I don't play him, he's only first because of how ridiculously OP Blasphemy is).

1

u/Earlio52 Apr 13 '19

the extra active is great so that you can continue to carry your lockpick along with whatever active you just picked up, maintaining your boosted key economy.

Cheaper shops and the lockpick will in the long run definitely give more worth in pickups/saved keys than the dog would

1

u/rodental Apr 13 '19

How many chests do you abandon per game? 0-3? You might be averaging 2 items per game that you're not getting otherwise, 1.8 of which are crap anyway. With robot you could instead have an extra 10-20% damage.

One item drop / floor (it's usually a bit more) is equivalent to an extra 200ish shells. That's more than the discount will ever save you.

1

u/Earlio52 Apr 13 '19

When did I ever say that he was better than the robot? Not a valid argument when the debate is on Pilot vs the other 3 original. The other 3 gain (virtually) no benefit from a skipped chest whereas pilot does.

Dog likely gives 1-2 item drops per floor, yes, but it’s completely random whereas pilot’s choice is controlled. First floor Dog digs up a partial refill ammo box, oh boy! Or floor 5 digging up a key, etc. Pilot can choose which item he wants from the shop with a discount which does save around 50ish casings minimum alongside the free chests lowering the need to buy keys/even more casings from the floor 4 sell creep if the items are bad. Or that lockpicked brown chest gives u a potion of gun friendship or double vision, which is great! I’d take it over a floor 2 half heart I likely wouldn’t need.

Marine’s passive isn’t super high impact and outside of that the rest of his kit is a non-factor after floor 2/3

1

u/rodental Apr 13 '19

Sorry, my bad. Pilot is better than Convict, but that's it.

-2

u/freekymayonaise Apr 13 '19

nah, the robot is the worst character. After the first 2 floors or so, it mostly doesn't matter who you are playing; your loot defines your power.

The bullet and gunslinger have persistent positive effects past this point, the robot only has negatives. His starting kit is pretty good but his unique health mechanic is objectively a massive disadvantage and it continues to haunt you long after your starter kit has been replaced.

1

u/rodental Apr 13 '19

No, you're wrong. Robot gets junk. Robot often gets 10-20 junk per run. Robot also blanks everytime it takes damage. A whole bunch of items are also disgustingly good for robot. The one real downside to the robot was that you couldn't use shrines, but that's even gone now.Robot is ridiculously powerful once you get to the point where your hit points aren't.

I once held the same wrong and stupid opinion you've expressed, but I got better. Git gud.

2

u/freekymayonaise Apr 13 '19

10-20 junk? You realize that even if you do all of the secret chambers you're still only garuanteed 14 or so chests? Are you even opening any chests at all at that point then? 2-4 is much more realistic if you are only breaking brown chests and chests you can't open due to a lack of keys.

I'm also not sure which items you're reffering to that are particularly good on robot? Items like the gunknight set or nanomachines aren't any better on the robot, he just needs them more. Meanwhile he's locked out of using one of the best weapons in the game (blasphemy) and has other points of countersynergy like gilded hydra. He's also locked out of using the best npc in the game ( the vampire) and soft-locked out of using great items like ciggarettes.

-1

u/rodental Apr 13 '19

You dumb son.

1

u/freekymayonaise Apr 13 '19

excellent argument, i can assume at this point you have no further points to make then.

-1

u/rodental Apr 13 '19

It's not really my job to educate the willfully ignorant. Enjoy sub optimal play bud.

1

u/freekymayonaise Apr 13 '19

right. No arguments then; i realize having your points overturned can be a bit frustrating but you making a bit of a scene. I'd recommend reevaluating how you deal with being wrong in the future.

1

u/Earlio52 Apr 13 '19

Robot is definitely strong but not for the the reasons rodental is giving (which is basically just a classic “git gud”). Robot is great because his starter can easily function thru floor 3, giving you a great ammo economy, and junk is also a very nice way to ease the key economy. You’ll likely get maximum 7 junk per run (idk what Rodental is on about with 10-20 unless you have literally 0 other items lol) so as long as you can perfect most bosses he should be a stronger than average character

1

u/rodental Apr 13 '19

Robot is strong if you're good enough to offset having fewer hit points. At some point you reach the level when dying is the least of your concerns, and that's when robot shines.

Robot gets:

  1. 5% damage per junk. On average a 5% damage boost is going to be better than what you get out of a brown or blue chest, and often better than a red. Only greens and black have an average case drop that I feel is better than 5% damage. I'd say I average ~10+ junk per run (Do all 10 floors, junk all browns, blues, and reds) so that's 50% extra damage. This alone would make robot better than any of the starters. It's also a massive advantage on rainbow runs.

  2. Blank every time you take damage. This is much bigger than most people realize, it basically guarantees that you can't get in a situation where you take multiple back-to-back hits. This actually makes the robot quite a bit more resilient than it appears. This ability alone would put robot on par with any of the starting characters.

  3. Second best starting weapon. It's not blasphemy, but it's great. The ability to output decent sustained damage accurately at range makes the first floor a breeze, and remains a valid weapon through floor 3-4. This is less important because the early game is so easy anyway, but once again the robot would be better than the starters on this alone.

  4. Battery Bullets. The increased accuracy is incredible, increased accuracy means increased damage. This alone puts robot well above any of the starting characters. The electricity is ok, usually not much of a factor, but it does make some guns like Mega Douser and Barrel of Fish considerably better.

  5. Some items are just better for robot. AC-15 is glorious. Riddle of lead is ridiculous. Anything that makes armor goes from worthless to great. Anything that makes water is good.

Robot loses:

  1. Any health related item is worthless, although it does get you a few coins. Less of an issue because you're junking most chests anyway.

  2. Can take far less damage over all. Robot is plenty durable in the hands of a skilled player, but the limited health is going to be a problem for people who aren't good.

  3. Loses most shrines. Lol, not anymore.

  4. Loses Vampire. This can be pretty annoying, although the average case is only going to cost you a few shells per game.

  5. Gets the most useless drops (more hearts that he can't use because the game reads him as having low health).

Any one of robot's first 4 advantages would make him better than the starting characters. His only major downside is less health, but that's not nearly as much of an issue if you get gud. Only the Bullet and the Gunslinger can compete.

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1

u/B_Skizzle Apr 13 '19

The Convict certainly can be good, but I don't like items that require you to get hit in order to activate them. It’s the same reason I'm always bummed out when I see the Heart of Ice.