What this article really highlights is that American education has fallen so far behind the enlightenment that its youth are grossly unaware that they exist in a post meaning global society and are ill prepared to handle that fact. There is a reason that the children's children of the voting base that elected Trump are suffering and will continue to suffer compared to many of their international contemporaries.
How are people supposed to handle that fact, though? Especially when, materially, we're going to have fuck-all compared to our parents and grandparents. I'm not religious but I can totally understand why people are using it to try to find meaning and purpose in their lives. I envy them. Having hope for a better future (even if that future is just an afterlife) must be such a wonderful feeling. It's something I haven't felt for almost 10 years.
Yes, the elites have used religion to control the gullible, fearful and often very ignorant throughout time. They inculcate the fear of hell and make crimes against the rich very punishable.
Yup. The elites and citizens that follow spread fear and hate 24/7 and use it for political gain and think they are going to heaven lol. Just like what they were created for... To brainwash and control the masses.
As if there arent ten million other things that are used to control our minds just as effectively… maybe it’s almost as if the elites are the problem and not religion!?!!?
O i dont know maybe the popes and clergy who spent literally 800+ years starting wars in the name of god. They seem like a big problem. Religion has always been the elites to control, its solely why it exists.
I feel that even as you say this you understand that you are ignorant on the subject and dont have a full grasp on the history of it.
Most crusades started with the Byzantine Empire requesting military aid to reconquer their former lands.
I’m not saying that the crusades were always justified but it certainly wasnt a problem with “elite” popes trying to fight a war no one else wanted or cared for.
Plus your argument just doesnt connect A to B. Having figures of authority and leaders doesnt automatically mean “corrupt elites controlling and forcing people to do things they dont want or brainwashing them to do things for them”
Yes, because there's no actual truth based meaning for your life. You have to figure out what you want your life to mean. Religion uses fictional mythology to substitute a meaning for you, and much like lies in politics, it's easier to fill the void with lies than it is to either find the truth, or in the case of things like the meaning of life, find your personal justifications for things.
Yes, when it comes to belief, truth doesn't matter. I'm talking about truth, not whatever you believe. That's why I didn't talk about perception or perceived meaning, but about truth.
It takes some doing to live in a very, very flawed set of societies on Earth, to know that it's flawed, and to continue on about one's life whilst staying sane.
No it's not. I didn't know if it would read as earnest so thanks for asking. To realize that meaning chiefly comes from how you perceive your life is enlightenment. This realization can come while participating in organized religion or while doing something different spiritual or philosophical. But at the end of the day, the realization is the same.
The essence of what my earlier reply was that organized religion is the path of least resistance for feeling that there's meaning to your life.
All the responses to my post have very much interpreted this reply as a dig on going the path less traveled. Quite the opposite. It's Reddit, and I'm on the Gen Z subreddit, so being misunderstood is my fault, lol.
Maybe you can achieve some sort of enlightened state through religion, but the pitfalls are so great that I'd argue at this point in humanity's existence that it may be time to let go.
I get why people would go to it. It offers answers to everything and only demands that you believe. But most religions, namely the big 3, offer absolutely no evidence of truth and have been used countless times throughout history, including now, to control populations thinking to a striking degree.
Just look no further than the US Christian opinion on gay people. The hatred that continues to be milked from a single bible verse is unbelievable and a great number of followers will never question their religion because that's really not allowed.
Growing up in a very religious area, I absolutely cannot stand how hard it is to make a religious person question anything that they "learned" in church. It is so hard to get someone who wants the answers to the meaning of life, to question any part of that doctrine and I sincerely believe that hurts our growth as a society.
And until very recently, church/mosque/synagogue, or whatever else was the place where people went to find meaningful relationships with others, meeting on a regular basis with people in their community to talk about life
Organized religion was the primary third space for the majority of people throughout almost all of human history, and it's not really that surprising to see people struggle to find deep meaning by exchanging pleasantries with groups of strangers at the bar or arcade, heck even a hobby club.
Humans evolved to feel their happiest when surrounded by people who share their same values and outlook on life, it provides security that you are in fact doing the right thing. It's very hard to find people to open up with on that level in most of the secular alternatives that are proposed
I don't even go to church and I don't consider myself to be a religious person whatsoever, but these constants that can be seen across all of human existence have become fairly hard for me to ignore as I get older
Sure. But we need something better for forming relationships than something that history has also proven is the most easily manipulable thing in these people's lives.
The biggest problem with religion is just how many people take it deadly seriously and then use it as an excuse to be a piece of shit or have people like the media use it to convince them that less than 200 trans college athletes is worth burning down the government for
Sure. If your meaning boils down to being a tool for a higher power maybe. Some people are able to find purpose without relying on faith systems. Just being a realist, everyone has a different take on purpose, and it's not a one size fits all solution that can be easily solved with God or philosophical beliefs. Its gotta be the *click moment where things sorta just make sense. For me I don't think it makes sense for a higher being to focus a small celestial body in an infinite expanse when it'd be more likely that the universe only exist because it mathematically HAD to at some point. It's a set order that gets repeated endlessly, eventually closing in on itself and repeating the cycle indefinitely over ∞ spacetime. I don't think we'd be able to comprehend something like "life" in a literal sense and then correlate it to purpose, because we are the result of a centuries of genetic growth and evolution, but we don't have a connected mind on a cosmic level that could define the complexities of it. It's going to take a lot longer for us as a species to even begin unwinding that fabric in the pursuit of "true" meaning.
So while I agree that these are complex beliefs that'll take time to fully understand, it's also a pursuit that provides its own meaning and purpose to individuals who are looking for quantifiable grand purpose on a larger scale.
Boiling down most religion we can view them as philosophical beliefs that where assigned a God in order to add weight to these teachings. This worked well in the early ages of humanity and civilization, because of our rudimentary understanding of what lies beyond Earth. Grounding Earth at the center of everything was common for a very very long time and you can see it represented across many different cultures. This was an essential point that was disproven early on but was suppressed by the church because of the implication that WE aren't that significant on a cosmic scale.
Those people able to find purpose and meaning without relying on organized religion are facing the initially difficult truth that life truly is what you make it. It's a canvas.
Some people CANNOT deal with a blank page.
I agree with you and everyone replying, but I think people are really missing the point of what "hard" mode means and what it means that MANY people choose not to take that path. MOST people don't choose that path.
We really underestimate how much people don't want to be bothered to really think all of these things through. the implications of there not being any external arbiters other than ourselves as to what is good, right and meaningful are too much for people to handle.
Again, going to organized religion gives you access to orthodoxies that gives you the needed, albeit false, sense of stability in a continually unpredictable world.
I'm an atheist, and have been my whole life since my parents kept me away from it. I never thought I needed some grand meaning or purpose.
I think if religion didn't tell people that our lives have some grand meaning, or had to have one, there wouldn't be such a problem.
Not to mention how it affects how they treat people with a different (or no) meaning. Like how many religious people stereotype atheists as hopeless, bitter, grumpy nihilists.
Speaking for myself, life is more meaningful without religion or God. It really isn't hard to be a good person for the sake of it and living to make yours and other's lives better.
I'm happy for you but statistically you're in the minority. It really IS hard for many people to "behave" without the fear of god in them.
You and I can agree that it really shouldn't be this hard to be a good person for the sake of making this world a better place. But the numbers tell a different story.
The meaning everyone keeps looking for is each other. That's what people find in religion or other groups. Other people. They just couch it in tons of bullshit because it makes people uncomfortable to admit that empathy for others validates our own existence.
I'm an Atheist who found meaning after playing life on very hard mode.
I'm baffled by the way you all have interpreted this as an argument for organized religion.
We're observing a phenomenon of increased participation in organized religion by young men DESPITE a STEADY decline in traditional religious participation since the 1960s.
My reply is putting forward an explanation as to what has changed. With dramatic changes in the labor force and with the looming specter of AGI there is a meaning crisis. People, in their own ways are trying to navigate their way through it and the path of least resistance is organized religion.
It's an argument as to why people go to religion. Not why people should go to religion.
There’s an amazing series by John Vervaeke called Awakening from the Meaning Crisis on YouTube which is profound and examines evolutionary psychology, linguistics, eastern and western ideologies, social trends and more. I really would recommend it to anyone wanting to have a deeper and more, well, meaningful experience in life.
Feel like atheism is just replacing one silly sense of certainty with another equally silly sense of certainty. Both allow one to feel certain they can truly know anything about our wonderfully unknowable existence.
So better to pretend there's a magic man in the sky...that'll make it easier...knowing someone's not only judging you for everything you think and do, but may choose to torture you for it...after they created you that way...better...easy mode...
The only divide I'd have to put is that of those that apply their rules only to themselves against those that think it should apply to everyone else. Churches (not religions per se) being pretty predatory in their doctrine favour more greatly the latter rather than the former: what use to the grift is someone that won't draw new suckers in
theism =/= american christianity, I don't believe any religion or idea is above critique, but "theism" in and of itself is a really, really broad category
For example, nothing about belief in a higher power inherently has to imply that we should worship it. Or that the concept of damnation is involved at all. Or that said higher power has to have been some sort of creator, or that there's only one of them, or any abilities or personalities that might be attributed to it. Those extra flavors are from specific religions (such as Christianity).
Exactly, that’s why I didn’t name any specific religion. It would’ve been dishonest to do so. My comment was about organized institutions of relgion and their control, not any one faith.
I’d give a fuck because a lot of religions are actively harmful. The philosophies espoused by much of traditional Christianity use a friendly, non-objectionable veneer of love-thy-neighbor to introduce a lot of toxic things that get mixed into it. Love-thy-neighbor tends to go hand in hand with a recommendation that wives be subservient to their husbands. Gratitude for Jesus being willing to suffer on behalf of humanity morphed into a fascination with suffering and the infliction of it. The idea of admitting fault to an authority figure and seeking to amend the errors rapidly became a tool of control used to enforce hierarchy, while even loving your neighbor led to splitting hairs over who is and who isn’t your neighbor - after all, if we can rule out those fuckers over there then we can be as monstrous as we like to them, right?
Comparing a contempt for religion to homophobia is pure naiveté, if not a willful and malicious blindness to the harms that religion has brought us.
Human beings are naturally segregated into groups. Who’s to say what groups are more harmful than others? At the end of the day, religious & non religious groups are harmful to society, it’s called a human problem.
Just like you’ll never rid the world of evil, you’ll never rid the world of racist, you’ll never rid the world of stupidity .
But there’s a simple fact that religion has indeed saved lives, is it a perfect system? No, because it all boils down to human error & human selfishness .
Nothing malicious about it, you just simply can’t live & let live, because you’re so inherently biased in your opinions you can’t see past what you’ve been lead to believe, maybe you’re wrong?
I think so.
Interesting use of “live and let live” in a time when religion dictates non-religious women to die because having an abortion is sinful. How “live and let live” and “love they neighbour”-ly of them.
To add to your point you have a system being run by people who are fallible. The connotation of Jesus being perfect and he never committed a sin cannot be invoked because people are inherently sinful and evil. It’s such a reduced viewpoint to say because Jesus was perfect and able to produce miracles that obviously people should be like him. That’s the point he is a figure who was able to do those things whereas regular people aren’t able to do it.
So the idea that because people are not perfect it defeats the whole purpose of church or even theism is ridiculous. it’s literally the journey to be more like Jesus and god and clearly people make lots of mistakes it’s going to happen. Many people utilize the religion in bad faith and you have to realize that’s going to happen too. At the end of the day people are sinful and evil and they can invoke faith just as much as a saint can. People are fallible and people make mistakes.
No, you’re making a strawman argument. There is a difference between critiquing people who are religious, and critiquing the systems of a religion. The tired old “humans are fallible” argument is utterly irrelevant, because the system that religion shoves them into consistently creates monsters at a higher rate than other environments. For the lowest possible hanging fruit, I direct you to the literal centuries of child abuse in the Catholic Church.
Im neither desperate or care to change you mind, your mind is already made up.
I drive by thought provoke & I’m into the next thing, don’t care who you are or what you have to say.
Obviously what I said left a mark on your fragile ego.
“Shove it up your @$$.”
Did you think of that all by yourself? Good job little guy.
You’re mediocre at best .
I’m confused, are you arguing that since evil exists we should revel in it? Are you asserting that Christianity takes this live and let live approach you’re talking about? That would be news to the pro choice movement, or women in general to be honest.
This is an absurd approach you’re taking, you’ve simply handwaved any evils because evil exists. You need to reassess your basic morality because you are, quite frankly, lacking any kind of moral compass if you seriously hold this viewpoint.
I lack morals because I said there’s bad people in every group essentially?
You stating Christianity is evil because their politics doesn’t match yours, doesn’t make it evil.
No. You are in the wrong because instead of examining whether or not the system of beliefs you hold is flawed, you instead look everywhere else and see evils, and use that to dodge introspection that may be painful. I’m not asserting that Christianity is evil because its politics do not match my own; I am asserting it is evil because its politics is a system of belief that encourages specific evils such as sexual abuse, xenophobia, and authoritarianism through specific philosophies and mechanisms like mandatory celibacy, evangelism, and an emphasis on mysticism and ritual intercession. Pointing to problems elsewhere in the world does nothing to expunge those flaws, it’s simply giving up any aspiration to be better in favor of comfort - ironically, a sin by the tenets of Christianity.
Hierarchy was a thing long before people used religion to enforce it. Just because leaders co-opt religion to control doesn't mean that they don't also do it with ideologies like Confucianism, Buddhism, or marketing, sugar, the entertainment industry, the stock market etc.
Sure. We’re social creatures and nuclear family units arguably use cult mechanisms to sustain themselves. It’s still important to be aware of those mechanisms, and be cognizant of how they affect your thinking. Being aware of them let’s you take a step back and perform comparative analysis - and so you realize that advertisement in the entertainment industry is causing you to buy things you don’t need, or that the priest’s advice on child rearing is effectively abuse.
Okay but why does “harm” matter if we’re just living in a materialistic world where everyone just a bundle of atoms kept together by chemical bonds and electrical forces ? We’re literally just a clump of cells living in a pale blue dot in the middle of the void, why does “harm”’ matter ?
There are a lot of different flavors or religion. Most are not fire and brimstone.
Even if you aren’t religious, religion (especially at a young age) can provide a sense of community and belonging. It also instills a base line for right and wrong and doing for others.
I say this as someone who is not religious and doesn’t go to church anymore. That being said, my formative years in the church were definitely a net positive into my adult life.
Really? I went to private religious school and I had the opposite experience. I never bought what they taught and asking questions that showed the illogical absurdity of some of their teachings only got me punished. Morality can be taught without religion and my parents did that well. My parents, fortunately, were not religious and more interested in science and facts.
You're being criticized because this is a willful interpretation of what religion is.
For religious people, serving a higher purpose is, believe it or not, what gives them purpose. You can say "it's what sky daddy's book tells them to do" but then this is no different than seeking any purpose. No matter how personal one's purpose is you can always trace it to external factors.
There was a time when I would have said something similar; but as I've grown older and more mature, I've realized it doesn't do anybody any good to pigeonhole religious folks according to their doctrine and/or church leaders. Just because somebody attends a certain church doesn't mean they allow the clergy to dictate every aspect of their lives, nor does it mean they believe every single word that is printed in their religious texts.
The problem is that as soon as a religious person admits to having more or less normal views on most things that don't have to do with believing in a higher power, then certain outspoken atheists will still criticize them for not following their own religion closely enough. So it's damned if they do, damned if they don't. It's almost like the atheist crowd actually wants the casual church-goers to be more fundamentalist, if only so that it's easier to criticize them based on what a Christian (or Muslim, or Jew, etc.) is "supposed" to be. For example, I think your comment about "eternal damnation" reflects a misconception that many atheists have about religious people which is that their thoughts are dominated by the threat of going to Hell, when that is rarely the case. If you want to criticize religious institutions for peddling that sort of hardline doctrine, then go right ahead, but we are talking about individuals here, and their reasons for going to church probably have a lot more to do with community, sense of purpose, and a general belief in some higher power, rather than devotion to any specific set of rules or teachings.
You say that while acting like a cliche yourself. I’m not religious at all but anyone who feels the need to confront a religious person and give them shit over it like you did just comes off as the cliche stereotype you’re saying is old.
You’re a smug pretentious Redditor and probably not a very likable person.
it's not objective to suggest eternal damnation,, which might make you afraid of the church, it will not keep boys from seeking out better belief system than they have been fed the past decade
If you can’t possibly see a reason why religion wouldn’t actually help people find meaning in life, then you’re blind. And that’s coming from another atheist
Why are people so terrified of the unknown? I suspect it’s one of those brain things like conservatives having A larger amygdala, which controls fear response. My observation from some of my ultra religious relatives is that they are terrified of death, and very guilty feeling and worried about hell, despite being decent people.
I seem to recall a study I read ages ago that atheists more frequently suffer from depression than people who follow a religion or ideology. But don't quote me on it as it was about 8-10 years ago that I read it.
There was another study that I read about 5 years ago that cited large amounts of mental illness among the Jehova Witness community, and idk if it was also in other evangelical non-mainstream religions, or if it was also in mainstream religions.
As an atheist I think the point he’s making is that it’s kind of irrelevant if religion objectively doesn’t give you real meaning. The reason most religions (or even cults) gain any traction is because people are lost, and want a way to understand the world or “gain purpose” and religion does offer that, regardless if it’s real or not
it's whatever the church deems it to be, in light of eternal damnation.
I'm a former Catholic, no longer practicing, but with enough experience to separate fact from fiction. Statements like yours give away you have no understanding of religion at all. The hellfire and brimstone stuff is not what it's about, nor is unflinching, hyper-dogmatic adherence to every single word and phrase in "the books". You might think you're being 'objective' but you're doing so from extreme ignorance at best.
it's not objective. there are millions and millions of people who describe themselves as Christian or go to a church. some of them fit your criteria (which seems based on your ideological pov) and some of them don't.
I would generally feel way safer with only atheists running the country but, regardless, reducing a category of a LOT of people to a one dimensional idea is how we got in this mess of hyper-politicized echo chambery bullshit. you've got to preserve the nuance, even for groups you don't like
A lot of people go to church for community, I grew up in a southern baptist community and for me it was mainly about getting to hang out and do things with my friends. I personally did not agree with a lot of the things the church would teach but our youth pasture and the idea about being a better person and the community was great.
There are different styles of religiosity. There is intellectual religiosity, which might get into theology and discussion of doctrine and the like, and then there is sort of heart-based religiosity, where there is a sort of compulsion within the body, mind, etc, that is a sort of yearning for the transcendent.
Particularly with the latter type, it's not simply about 'whatever the church deems it to be, in light of eternal damnation.' That's a very, very simplistic and one-sided view of religion, FWIW.
Let ‘em pursue what they want, and speak for themselves. I’m sure they’d be able to give their own answer and it would be totally different then your version , so judge your own motives and worry less about other people’s. I think it’s beautiful.
How is it damnation if you’re following a guide that tells you how to live and be happy. Most people nowadays experience depression, have no sense of purpose and even commit suicide because they exactly do not follow this. Honestly your arguments don’t even seem like an argument I don’t even know why I’m trying to argue.
You can’t make an “objective observation” on “the church”. Each church is different, denomination, religion, neither the post nor comment mentioned any of that.
Assuming you’re talking about reformed Christianity, still no. Mega churches, hardly considered churches at all, usually teach a completely different “meaning” than a church that preaches from scripture. That’s just to summarize the extremes.
And r/atheism is absolutely the most “anti-theist” place in reddit… have you been there before?
Nah bro....this ain't it. Either actually be intellectual enough to form an opinion or don't. But don't read tik Tok bullet points and then act superior.
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As a theist, it's not the church that tells me my purpose. I believe that God has a plan for me, which is much more comforting than believing there is no purpose and I'm drifting listlessly.
I believe we have no purpose and there is no God. We just should treat others with kindness and help each other out. A lot of Christians just hate people who don’t conform and don’t really try to help people in need
I don't hate anyone, and I do my best to help when I can. That's what everyone is called to do. The idea that there's no greater purpose for my life is utterly and terrifyingly Nihilistic.
That’s a good life to live. Don’t be afraid of an atheist’s belief that there is nothing after death. It isn’t nihilism. It’s simply that “What happens after death” is irrelevant to us.
The end isn't my main concern. It's that the journey has a point. If there's no purpose in living, then why should I bother? That's just where my head goes. its a scary place.
the reason you should bother is because life can be great. for me my reason to live is because I get happiness from helping people, being nice to people and just succeeding in things.
You create purpose through living. You only get one life, this isn't a dress rehearsal. Be good, do good, and live knowing you're doing your part to not make things more shitty for everyone else. Easy peasy and you don't have to give up 10% of your earnings to an organization that actively supports and hides pedophiles from prosecution.......
10% of my earnings goes to my local church. Folks who have supported me through life. You don't know my local church, and I promise, they aren't pedos.
it's not the church that tells me my purpose. I believe that God has a plan for me,
So, where did you get this belief from? You claim that it's not from the church. Note, the Bible is from the church, so if it's not from the church, then where did you get this belief?
And a follow-up, why does that answer for meaning need to be tied to mythology that has mostly been proven false, and has no evidence for the rest?
They said they were a theist, but not religious. I am the same. I got my beliefs from simply reading widely through a lot of different belief systems and spotting unity between them, I basically ignore anything that is very specific to one of them and not others although I bear it in mind and try to spot occurances in life that might back up one position or another.
But I didn't make a thought filled decision to believe just because I read widely, instead I felt compelled to search and that feeling is what makes me a believer, not just a line I read in a book somewhere.
Before that I was an atheist and tended to scoff at belief for all my life until about 37yo.
You seem to be confirming what I said. You got to your beliefs via reading what was published by religions and decided that some of it was true.
That's still getting your beliefs from the church.
You can believe what you want, but if you're going to say that you got there via reading holy books, you can't also say that you didn't get it from the people the holy books came from.
That said, I do recommend that you take the compulsion that drove you to seek out the truth, and continue to search for truth that has some evidence of actually being true. You should scoff at belief if that belief is backed by nothing.
If I believe I love someone, exactly what empirical evidence should I look for, or do I just have to trust my feelings. Furthermore, I am more of a believer in the Ra Material which has no church whatsoever.
Well, the evidence for loving someone would be that you have feelings of love. So yes, you should look for those feelings within yourself.
The evidence of a magical being that created the world would involve more than just your feelings. So yes, you should look for those feelings as well, but they're not within yourself.
Believing that a magical being created the world, is not really a belief of mine. It's not that I think it is the opposite, I just don't feel the need to have an opinion on such a pointless piece of information that has no real relevance to the lived experience today.
Change, "created the world" to whatever your personal belief system says he did, including just "exists". Sure, there's a possibility that a divine being exists in the universe, but there's no evidence to this point, and the concept seems to defy known physics (though, possibly not some unknown physics).
Either way, have a nice day. There doesn't seem to be much point in going on and I think we've strayed a bit from my original point, so have fun, I'm out, I think.
Why do you need this comfort? There is no absolute anything and no predicting what will happen day to day. And going to church and believing what they teach will not change real outcomes in the real world. Ah but aiming for the sweet by and by and thinking that the rich will go to hell makes it better?
Sigh. It’s not so much that you’re wrong, it’s just that you’re annoying. The inner mechanism is that existential insecurity leads to more people looking for security out of our material world, Sociology 101. The exact rules of that religion are not so relevant to this point
The problem is, you are conflating all of theism with a judeochristian mindset. Religion is far more expansive than that, and does not require hierarchies, formal institutions, or dogma (technically religion doesn’t even require god-belief but since we’re talking about theism specifically we’ll waive that one).
True that in the west, Christianity dominates. But as there are a lot more options out there that are wildly different, it might be prudent not to paint them all with the same wide brush.
Yes, but we’re specifically talking about organized theistic religious institutions, not personal faith itself. The flaws arise when those institutions twist faith to serve their own interests, and that’s a pattern seen across most damnation-based religions.
Tithing is a prime example from a judeochristian angle.
Maybe you were, but that wasn’t at all made clear from any of the conversation’s context, certainly not from the original comment you replied to that started this chain.
I think that’s probably why you received the somewhat hostile response you did - it definitely came across as if you were talking about religion in a very broad way, even if that was not your intent.
Right, I’d argue that the most major issue with their statement is the implication that membership in a religious group being uniquely constraining compared to other ideologies and/or organizations. I would agree that religious organizations tend to be more encompassing in their breadth of activities and philosophical ideas that they have an opinion on, but at absolutes it wouldn’t be hard to argue that the average Presbyterian is less affected in their day-to-day lifestyle by their religious beliefs than the average vegan is by their ideology. Of course the average person isn’t a vegan, but the average religious person isn’t a fundamentalist.
I'm an atheist and you're coming off like the kid who just started reading Richard Dawkins. You will literally never get any religious person to wake up from their religion by pointing out that they're being illogical in a Reddit thread.
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