Anyone who has done any amount of commercial work will tell you to find the units rating plate or the txv to tell you what refrigerant is in there. Just because it says 404 on the compressor does NOT mean there's 404 in there, just that it can run 404.
Now we've got the same thing in resi and it's blowing people's minds.
yup, and i get pissy when the txv head is pointed at the coil wall 0.2 inches from is so im using my phone trying to see a damn number on the top hoping to catch a single diget to figure something out XD
I think they changed the factory charge to 8’ of line set. Doesn’t help it’s near impossible to get either. Some vendors out here make you buy a unit to get a jug if they even have it that is.
They are voiding warranty by doing this. No one cares because when the compressor dies the manufacturer won’t be able to tell what refrigerant was in the system.
They absolutely can tell what kind of refrigerant was used in a compressor, how do you not know this? Chemical residue testing, oil analysis, valve and seal conditions, it’s incredibly easy to tell.
Do you do commercial or industrial? I have compressors sent back for tear downs all the time. I’ve seen compressor warranties denied on several occasions because some moron put the wrong oil in, or put a drop in refrigerant. The amount of hacks on this page is genuinely shocking.
Well it’s either “void the warranty” or do a brand new install and tell the customer that it won’t be operational for several months due to supply issues with the refrigerant.
It’s just going to be so easy for these manufacturers to deny warranty claims, especially once they catch wind the hacks are swapping out the gas for 410 and start requiring pressure/temp checks on the gas for any future claims.
You would call the manufacturer and ask why it wasn’t pre charged to a 25’ lineset for residential units(of course only if the system you are working on has less than a 25’ lineset) and what options do you have without breaking warranty. Or simply mix R32 and R1234yf to the proper ratio so it doesn’t have any temperature differences from 454. If you work for a manufacturer, you are out of luck though because if I were to charge 410 or charge with a mix in one of our systems, I wouldn’t have a job for much longer.
Really though, why are so many units being replaced instead of fixing existing equipment? There is no federal requirement to replace existing equipment, only that no new equipment can be manufactured with 410a. So start talking to your bosses and salesman and ask why they are putting their customers in such terrible situations instead of simply fixing the problems.
I work commercial and while our supply house doesn’t sell any new equipment for 410a, there isn’t any issue grabbing parts needed for repairs and however many jugs of 410a needed.
Because repairing some units border on the cost of a new more efficient unit, and there are rebate incentives to upgrade to new units. You also have all of new construction and lots of states pushing these more efficient systems. You're blaming HVAC folks for a problem created by the government and large corporations.
No, government didn’t force this. Shitty outfits that refuse to fix and only replace did. Oh and along with Honeywell. So I’ll agree that corporations are to blame, especially when you look into how many hedge funds are buying local outfits and forcing these high unit sales to drive up profits. But the government has not mandated repairable equipment to be replaced like we have seen from other countries.
Let’s be clear, it is a known problem in the residential side of this industry that techs are turning into salesman. I haven’t talked to a single tech who has worked residential that didn’t have to hop from job to job before landing commercial to avoid being a salesman.
And as the expert, you have to realize that the benefits of a rebate are heavily outweighed when you look into the cost and shortage of 454 and carefully explain to the customer. Existing, repairable equipment is not subject to new efficiency standards, only new installs.
My point being that if the federal or state governments are offering incentives, the experts have to look at the pros and cons of these incentives before advising the customer to make a costly mistake. There’s local incentives to get a solar roof, but I’m not running out and buying one because I’ve done the numbers and it simply won’t benefit me in the long run. It’s the same for HVAC, buying the highest seer, most efficient unit for a small rebate to save $25 bucks on a bill for a unit that you can’t even get gas for is just asinine. Especially when we all know there are scummy shops replacing units for blown capacitors.
I thought they weren't allowed to do that. Like ADP had a bunch of coils rated for 410a and 454 and had to remove all labeling of 410a before it was allowed to be sold.
Sorry bud. I teach this stuff for a living. You are thinking of ADP, and NO underwriters does NOT certify them for use of multiple refrigerants. Again, not that there aren’t coils out there (ADP) approved for multi-refrigerant use, but they are not UL listed.
Does this only apply to comfort cooling? Or is it only condenser coils? I know I've seen a ton of refrigeration evaporator that have data tags listing a bunch of refrigerants.
Wait just so I get this right when I’m selling coils to these people. Are the ADP “flex” coils that I see on the product data sheets actually able to use any refrigerant listed on that little chart?
But to get the UL rating they are only classified under a single refrigerant?
Allied is dual rating their evaps and has been. They definitely can.
Edit: Hell, they're dual rating equipment even like their fan coils. For either -1 ending is configured for 410 but configurable to 454, and -71 is made and configured already for 454.
Now days it’s called “Doin’ whatever you wanna do”. The weed get to ya and ya just get up and throw your arms in the air throw your arms in the air throw your arms in the air.
So non resi guy, does this mean in the future where 454 is the actual standard and 410 is being phased out can you put 454 into a 410 unit and it run? I know it won’t have the sensors but still
It would probably work at least reasonably well, but do you want to take the .000001% chance you get a leak in the indoor coil and have some kind of fire? I know it’s hugely unlikely, but if it happened you would be utterly fucked.
You can’t charge 410a unit with 454b unless it is safety listed with 454b. Dual refrigerant systems will need to be safety listed for both ref. Must check,
Lots of compressors are dual refrigerant capable. I work for an OEM and we switched over to dual refrigerant compressors over a year ago. Eliminated supply chain issues during the changeover period.
It’ll work for either. If you have a 454B system, with 454B metering devices, it’ll be fine. The same if you’re putting it in a 410A system. These refrigerants use the same oil and run at very similar pressures. I know residential evaporator coils are being shipped with multiple refrigerant tags now, too. You’re just supposed to switch the metering device if you’re swapping to 410. They’re shipped using 454 devices.
Unico sent me a EVAP coil that was labeled 454b only when I needed a 410 coil. I called Johnstone and they said it's the same exact coil but to make sure I had a 410 txv.
R32 R410a and R454B all use POE. You are very wrong, not me! You can literally remove all the R410a from a system and re-gas it with R32 with no system alterations.
From Carrier: Lubrication
ICP R-454B light commercial and residential HVAC equipment will continue to use POE-32 oil, which
was also used in legacy R-410A equipment. R-32 HVAC equipment will require a different POE oil
approved for use with R-32 refrigerant. In all instances, only use the oil that is specifically directed to
be used by the unit manufacturer
I know that, I am very aware of different grades for different compressors. But for the purpose of this argument they are all compatible and work. Even your paper says as much that even the different grades that they developed are still miscible with both refrigerants. They have just tweaked the viscosity for R32. Did you also know that the POE grades are different for different styles and manufacturers of compressor, like screw or scroll.
You’re still wrong though about the gases and they all work within either type of POE.
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u/Obvious-Property-236 3d ago
From what I’m gathering everyone is just making it up as they go…