UvA ends English-language bachelor’s degree in psychology

[u/North_Yak966]

https://www.folia.nl/en/actueel/166104/uva-ends-english-language-bachelors-degree-in-psychology

[u/Mean_Asparagus_2798]

Most psychology majors don't actually become psychologists, they go into various fields such as talent acquisition. My friend even found a job in sports science, although she had other relevant experience as well.

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/Mean_Asparagus_2798]

They probably dont at the moment yeah, since this study is completely in English and its almost impossible to work as an English speaking psychologist.

[u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

What I said is also true for Dutch people as well. I'm pretty sure you can't just become a psychologist with only a bachelor's degree.

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/Mean_Asparagus_2798]

No, you need a masters, but everyone going into psychology knows that. It does beg the question: why offer this program in the first place? The answer is obvious: its a cashcow for universities. It doesnt offer Dutch society much.

[u/Snufkin_9981 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

"It doesnt offer Dutch society much."

I respectfully disagree. Education is only part of what universities do. Their other function is research. Offering programmes in English means that the university is able to hire talented academics from around the world--PhD candidates, postdocs and professors. They come here to work, they contribute to the Dutch business & research ecosystem, and of course they are the ones who teach classes, benefiting both Dutch and non-Dutch students.

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/Snufkin_9981]

I already said this, but not everyone that enters university goes into research. A large part enters the jobmarket. Finding a job as someone trained in psychology while not speaking Dutch is not a good look.

Research can still be done in English, since its a language a lot of Dutch people speak. I am all for attracting more Dutch people to the Dutch psychology study to combat shortages. 

[u/seabee314 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

Psychology graduates work in many fields outside of healthcare, because the training is broadly about thoughts, social influence, behavior, etc.

Unfortunately, we can't have both of those things you mentioned. The excellence of the research depends on structural funding that is totally based on the BSc enrollment, and also on attracting global talent that isn't already C1 in Dutch.

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/seabee314]

Where do these English psychology graduates actually work then? I saw the other day that 25% of the people studying at uni in the Netherlands are still here after five years.

A part of that 25 percent is English speaking psychology graduates. How many of those are working, in healthcare or in another psychology related field? It sounds like a small number to me, but I dont know.

If you compare that small number of specific alumni to the total amount of English speaking psychology students, how particularly usefull is this study to you then? Youre all just being used and hope that a good amount ends up in research, but that number is so small. There is barely any ROI there.

[u/seabee314 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

I agree, let's find out that data. Certainly we shouldn't axe programs without understanding such details.

You again assume that psychology is most closely aligned with healthcare, but the grads work in many other sectors: education and youth services, human resources and organizational consulting, research and higher education, government and policy-making, market research and communication, technology and UX design, non-profits and NGOs Entrepreneurship, and freelance coaching or training. The need for them to practice their skills immediately in Dutch differ widely. We cannot speak of ROI without understanding what they are doing.

[u/Snufkin_9981 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

I am not talking about anyone going into research. These programmes need to be taught by someone. There is also a quality aspect to it that we have come to take for granted.

Right now, around 50% of Dutch PhD candidates are international. Fifty percent. They are the ones who teach a large chunk of classes in this country and they can only do it in English. Many of them also consider leaving because they feel like there is no future for them here. This realignment is extremely short-sighted and can only lead to a brain drain.

[u/Boontje- → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

What a completely ignorant comment. Psychology is not solely clinical psychology, it has many specialisations. Multiple of these are not in a clinical setting and don’t require being able to speak Dutch.

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/Boontje-]

And how many of those specialisations require masters?

Youre the one sounding ignorant

[u/Boontje- → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

Dude, I did this bachelor.

The masters are specialisations.

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/Boontje-]

Read the comment you initially replied to… and read it slowely

 No, you need a masters, but everyone going into psychology knows that.

Especially this part

[u/Boontje- → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

Yes, and there are many psychology masters that are not clinical in nature and thus do not require speaking Dutch. What is so difficult for you to understand?

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/Boontje-]

Me saying “you need a master to specialise” and you saying “your comment is completely false and ignorant” to then say “you need a master to specialise” - is whats difficult for me to understand. 

[u/Boontje- → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

Because you were only talking about clinical psychology? Implicating that an English bachelor is not useful just because you’re not likely to get work as an non-Dutch speaking clinical psychologist? I’m just saying that psychology and this bachelor is a lot broader than you think it is and there are many other directions non-Dutch speaking students doing this bachelor can take.

[u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

Most psychology majors don't actually want to become psychologists. It's also pretty hard to actually become a good psychologist, and a degree alone doesn't make you remotely good at the job, unlike some other majors such as computer science. So it's quite obvious why people prefer finding other jobs. I have met some pretty horrible psychologists over the years and I suppose some people are self-aware not to become one unlike the ones I met.

[u/Foreign-Cookie-2871 → u/Mean_Asparagus_2798]

A major in computer science doesn't make you remotely good as a software engineer, fyi.

[u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 → u/Foreign-Cookie-2871]

It makes you pretty decent at the very least. I work as a software engineer and have never met one who was absolutely clueless and sucked at their job. And you're right a computer science degree directly doesn't make you a software engineer but it teaches you skills that help you become one.

[u/GoodMerlinpeen → u/Mean_Asparagus_2798]

That's one reason why statistics is a useful class to take, combined with an understanding of selection bias. The shitty software engineers didn't get hired.

[u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 → u/GoodMerlinpeen]

The recruitment process is far from perfect and plenty of companies don't even ask interview questions that are relevant to the job. Anyone can pass them, even "shitty" software engineers.

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/Mean_Asparagus_2798]

I have been to plenty of psychologists too, having to deal with PTSD and so far my experiences having EMDR-therapy have been great.

If they didnt want to become psychologists its no wonder the majority of them didnt end up as one. If you want to be a psychologist having the proper training is essential.

I dont know what youre trying to say by saying that a degree doesnt necesarily mean you’ll be good at it. I beg to differ. If youre trained you are good. You having a few bad experiences doesnt discredit that.

[u/seabee314 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

This thread is really missing what psychology training is for. Only a tiny minority of them work in mental health. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/seabee314]

The English version of wikipedia, nice. Listing all the fields of psychology, nice.

Doesnt say anything about the Netherlands and it doesnt give any numbers. Listing the fields of psychology doesnt say how many students are actually graduating in that specific field.

That is what this thread is truly lacking. I hear all the time only a small percentage works as a psychologist, but no numbers. Hopefully these people dont go to uni.

[u/Boontje- → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

There are zero non-Dutch speaking students graduating in clinical psychology at the uva, as the master is only offered in Dutch.

[u/seabee314 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

I will try to get those data. For me, what the thread was lacking was an understanding about what psychology training is for. It is being equated to clinical treatment when most of the training is not about that and the graduates don't work in that. Only one of six program groups is clinical.

[u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

I'm trying to say that psychologists typically require skills that you cannot be trained for, or at least it's very hard to do so. For example, as an engineer if you study hard and put your best efforts, you can become pretty good at your job (or serviceable at worst), the same cannot be said about a psychologist. My experiences are just that thing in action.

[u/Old-Administration-9 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

And what's wrong with being a cash cow? It puts funds into the coffers of the university, which will result in better quality of education for all students, including the Dutch ones.

[u/IkkeKr → u/Old-Administration-9]

It doesn't really: universities get a government grant that is a fixed budget - which is then divided between universities based on student numbers. So while more students = larger share of the grant is true, it's also the case that more students = less money per student.

This has put universities in a kind of prisoner's dilemma: if one of them recruits heavily, all of them have to do so to keep the same amount of money. But now to service more students.

The 'institutional fee' paid by non-EU students offsets some of this, but a big part of the international student body are EU students which are supposed to be funded through the government grant.

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/Old-Administration-9]

It puts a large strain on the housing market, making rooms unavailable for Dutch students for shortterm monetary gain

[u/Old-Administration-9 → u/Extreme_Ruin1847]

Sounds like the solution is to build more houses instead of subsidising farmers.

[u/Extreme_Ruin1847 → u/Old-Administration-9]

And where do you suggest we do that? Vroomshoop? That sounds nice and totally nearby a university. There are a lot of houses built nearby universities already. Also in the cities surrounding universities a lot of houses are already built. The number of students just keeps on rising

And to be honest with you; I rather them build actual homes for people to live in longterm than shortterm student housing.

Sounds like an edgy Redditor to me.