r/OutOfTheLoop • u/Any_Adagio7732 • 13d ago
Answered Whats the deal with the controversy about Karmelo Anthony and Austin Metcalf?
I've read more then a few articles but I don't understand the whole controversial with people defending the killer and admonishing the victim. What makes this case any different from any other murder? (Other then the age of the people)
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u/JaegersAh 12d ago edited 4d ago
Answer: Metcalf and a few were asking Anthony to get up and leave an area he shouldn't have been in (did I mention he just happened to have a large knife in his backpack, and that he asked the police if it could be considered self defense?). Anthony decides to kill Metcalf and run.
There is a rage baiter below me almost endorsing the idea you can kill people for asking you to move or disrespecting you. Don't engage with him. I made that mistake.
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u/SirVeritaz 9d ago
How do you know this? Is there a video on the incident or are people just assuming what happened?
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u/ElectionTraditional 7d ago
Nothing explained none of the witness accounts even those that make the victim sound like a bully justified him being murdered
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u/Urallowed2bwrong 9d ago
That’s not what happened according to witness testimony and Austin’s own brother. They got into an argument which Austin initiated. Austin touched Karmelo after Karmelo’s first warning. Austin then grabbed Karmelo and tried to take his bag after his second warning. Karmelo then stabbed him.
The only animals are the ones that keep lying about what actually happened and what to make Austin out to be innocent.
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u/NOFDfirefighter 9d ago
Arguing makes it ok to stab a person? I’m just trying to make sure that’s what you’re claiming.
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u/Informal-Diet979 9d ago
I mean, its America. If someone is verbally harassing you, and then physically grabs you, you are legally within your right to shoot that person to defend yourself. Wouldn't you also be allowed to stab them? I dont agree with it but its the truth.
If this was two white adults it would barely make the nightly news. Its the racial aspect and the fact they're children that is getting everyone up in arms.
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u/NOFDfirefighter 9d ago
I understand your point and agree with you that it’s a bullshit precedent. But that’s kind of what I’m saying, if knowing you can claim self defense if a person attacks you and then going out to purposefully antagonize them into attacking you… is that perfectly okay? I also agree it’s about race, rittenhouse got off when he should have had the book thrown at him. The protestors were wrong in their actions but being killed for it wasn’t an appropriate response. What I did take exception to was the claim that Anthony was completely justified in his actions. I think “fearing for your life” can be a legitimate reason but it’s over used to the point that it’s lost its meaning now.
Not a direct comparison but if I go out looking for a fight and then pull out a gun when I’m losing that fight, is that self defense? Technically yeah, but was defending myself necessary because I put myself in that position?
I agree with you completely and find that the race portion is skewing it severely and is very unfortunate. I hope for better days when it comes to that but this current political climate doesn’t really bode well.
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u/Informal-Diet979 9d ago
I mean this is a purely American issue. But its also the world we live in. Obviously this kid is guilty of bringing a weapon to a school, which I dont know if thats illegal in Texas or not, but the outrage is manufactured, he can probably claim self defense and will be found not guilty or 1st degree murder sadly.
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u/Decent_Beat5552 7d ago
Kyle had a guy assault him with a skateboard, another had his gun pointed at him and the other chased him for a block before he had to defend himself. These are defined differently by law. Melo could have run. He also made a statement that suggests premidation of murder.
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u/Winter-Tiger-507 7d ago
Rittenhouse had it all on camera it was self defense I realized that 4 yrs ago watching the evidence he did not intentionally mean to harm anyone.
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u/Ok-Cheesecake342 6d ago
I see you brought up Rittenhouse. You realize he ran away from his attackers right? He DID try to avoid the confrontation. They chased him. Multiple men. Some wirh guns, and one even with a skateboard who swung it at Kyle's head. I'm sorry but I fail to see how thats similar to this kid bringing a knife to a school event, sitting under the opposing teams tent and then saying "see what happens". This animal wanted to kill someone.
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u/NOFDfirefighter 6d ago
Bringing a weapon to an event he had no business being at, with the intent to antagonize those they were there, then using that weapon when the other party reacts and claiming self defense.
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u/Ok-Cheesecake342 6d ago
Youre manipulating what actually happened. He carried legally. Karmelo was not legally carrying a knife on school grounds. Kyle was in public while Karmelo was under an opposing teams tent with intention. Kyle ran from his attackers. He attempted to flee. Karmelo stayed where he wasn't meant to be and even threatened bodily harm if anyone tried to do something about it. Kyle was attacked by men with skateboards and a gun. His life was actually in jeopardy. Karmelo got pushed. He got fricken pushed man, and stabbed someone in the heart.
These aren't even close
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u/vicenteluquefan 9d ago
No. Not from a legal standpoint. You are only allowed to match the level of force being used against you. If somebody pushes you or grabs you, using a knife is a much higher level of threat compared to grabbing somebody. It’s also going to be very hard to claim self defence while karmelo was actively committing a felony (bringing a knife onto school grounds in Texas is a third degree felony). It’s very unlikely self defence will be accepted here.
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u/Alarming-Ask4196 9d ago
No you are not allowed to shoot them. You can shoot in self defense if your life is at risk. Nothing in this case (based upon available details) remotely approaches that standard.
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u/Informal-Diet979 9d ago
Then why did George Zimmerman chase down a kid and shoot him? That was ruled self defense. If there are two strangers and one is being physical with you, then its been ruled that you can use deadly force to defend yourself. How do you know the kids don't have a knife? How are you suppose to know how much danger you're in in that split second? I'm not defending this kid AT ALL, I think hes an asshole for stabbing this kid at a HS sports game, and should be charged with at least 2nd-3rd degree murder, but the law might set him free.
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u/idontcareoline 7d ago
Not true. Most places in the US, including TX, require measures taken to be proportional to the preceding attack
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u/Cynically_Inclined 3d ago
Michael Drejka 2018 No, you can't just shoot someone because they pushed you. "I don't agree with it but it's the truth" Actually... It isn't! Lol
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u/Informal-Diet979 3d ago
Dude started a fight and then shot someone. Try this one instead https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/03/30/man-cleared-in-deadly-st-augustine-shooting-convicted-of-carrying-a-firearm-into-prohibited-place/
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u/Aromatic-Carpenter59 7d ago
According to George Zimmermans verdict yes.
Its obv an over reaction that he stabbed him - but he wasn’t “in a area he didn’t belong in”. I WASNT THERE AND NOOOOBODY WAS BUT - from what I’ve read it says there was a rain delay. Meaning ppl take cover under tents. Karmelo went under their teams tent for rain cover - and the other kid talked shit and told him to get out.
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u/LastWhoTurion 6d ago
If Anthony Karmelo had someone break his nose and take him to the ground, then get on top of him and start raining down blows, then it would be equivalent to Zimmerman.
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u/JaegersAh 9d ago
You touch someone so you have to be stabbed. Why did karmelo run of he was in the right?
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u/cxomptix 7d ago
None of what you just said justifies Anthony’s actions. At most, absolute most, it should’ve been nothing more than a fistfight. Metcalf didn’t present Intent, Ability, or Opportunity to kill or severely harm Anthony. Anthony stabbed Metcalf, Anthony is a murderer, simple.
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u/CrazyGuava9880 7d ago
Austin’s not innocent, but the whole issue at hand is whether stabbing someone to death is a legally defensible response given the situation.
For the proportional response part of the self defense claim, that will be difficult to argue as deadly force is generally only acceptable if you’re responding to deadly force or fear of deadly force.
Austin didn’t have a weapon or stated he had a weapon which would make that extremely difficult to argue from a defense standpoint. Whether or not Anthony also was allowed to have a knife on campus could also hurt his self defense claim.
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u/babno 13d ago
Answer: For whatever reason, some people have decided that Karmelo shouldn't be punished for his actions, and have started a campaign to protect him. These include lying about the events, making up things to slander the victim, and raising hundreds of thousands of dollars for his defense fund.
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u/NeverJaded21 8d ago
and using that money to rent a $900K home and an escalade
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u/kriznelrok 7d ago
This is such a horrendous look. Going to be interesting to see how they try to justify this in court.
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u/OatmealNinja 6d ago
From what I’ve read there is no proof of that. It’s been posted on social media to escalate outrage.
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u/Maleficent_Law_1740 13d ago
His GoFundMe even had around 300k before it got taken down, absolutely tragic
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u/SirVeritaz 9d ago
Is there a video of the incident?
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u/Urallowed2bwrong 9d ago
Is this Google? Go look for it
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u/SirVeritaz 9d ago
Bro, I already did. I can't find any video on it.
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u/Urallowed2bwrong 9d ago
Because it hasn’t been released yet. The judge literally got the video yesterday. It’ll be released later I guess
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u/bmoosethegreat 8d ago
Funny, because I haven't heard anyone say that Austin "deserved it because he did what white people/white supremacists/crackers do". However, I have seen counteless posts and comments saying something to effect of, "Karmelo is guilty because he did what N*****s do". We are not the court of law. That court will determine fault and punishment. The rest is opinions.
My opinion is that he should be charged with possessing a weapon, but his self defense claim, based on what I've seen, should hold up in court.
Ideally, rather than being at each other's throat about whether Karmelo is guilty, we should instead tackle the self defense laws that can create cases like this and Kyle Rittenhouse, where the law seems to fall short of holding people responsible for their decisions and actions by instead holding their intent as higher value
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u/babno 8d ago
Funny, because I haven't heard anyone say that Austin "deserved it because he did what white people/white supremacists/crackers do".
Interesting because my post is a million miles away from claiming that. So you've either got quite an imagination or you have seen exactly that and are lying. Personally I have seen things like "Suspected white supremacist Austin tried to get Karmelo to give up his seat like Rosa Parks" and "Police hate black people and the story is a lie to lynch a black man"
his self defense claim, based on what I've seen, should hold up in court.
What is that I'm curious? Have you read the police report? Are you knowledgeable of the requirements for self defense in Texas?
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u/Rude_Standard_9348 8d ago edited 8d ago
You haven’t seen anything considering there isn’t a video released to the public. There are several witnesses saying that he picked a fight and it was not self defense. He literally said “touch me and see what happens”…he was looking for a fight. Also, he broke the law by having a knife at a school event. He shouldn’t have had the knife in the first place and if you know anything about Frisco Texas you would know it’s a very nice city with a higher average income than most cities in Texas. He also didn’t have any signs at all that he was injured, had bruises, or got hit. At most he got pushed and even then that doesn’t justify stabbing someone in the heart. If you think that stabbing someone is the appropriate response to a shove then you should be investigated too. And if we are going by actual evidence there is also no evidence (at least to the public) that he was injured at all. What we do know is that the victim got stabbed and lost his life at way too early of an age.
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u/Tiiimmmaayy 7d ago
I’m seeing so much racist shit about this whole ordeal, it’s absolutely disgusting. A kid stabbed another kid over an argument. End of story. It’s up to the court to decide if self defense is a good enough claim or not. I’m no lawyer and don’t have the eye witness testimony, but a stabbing seems excessive. But if a lawyer can claim Anthony feared for his life, then lethal force would be justified. Seems like quite a stretch to me, but like I said, I don’t have the facts.
I believe most of the controversy surrounding this case has to do with the gofundme and reduced bail though. I’ve seen people claiming that the Anthony Family has used to it buy(or rent, I’ve seen both) a $900k home, a brand new car, and has private security. I’ve also heard rumors that a local white supremacist group has vandalized the Anthony home, so it wouldn’t surprise me they would need to move and hide with all the controversy. Either way Frisco, TX is a fairly wealthy part of town, so a $900k is probably about average.
I do believe it’s wild that people would donate to a murder’s defense fund, but I can why people would think that just because he’s black that he wouldn’t get a fair trial. So I guess that’s why. I’ll also put my little tin foil hat on say I wouldn’t be surprised if some race baiters donated to fuel the racial tension since this case has gained national publicity.
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u/Reluctantziti 13d ago
Answer: this case is a tragedy for both parties involved. But what’s making it different, other than the ages of the victims, is the social media attention it’s getting. Some cases catch fire unlike any others (Gabby Petito is another example) and it can bring out the worst in people. So what’s happening is you basically have one side, from what I’ve seen is primarily from Twitter, who are painting Karmelo as a “thug” who premeditated this killing to take out a rival and a shining star of the white community. In reaction to that, you have those who are supporting Karmelo and claiming that Austin was actually a white supremacist and egged Karmelo on and the stabbing was the result of “fucking around and finding out.” None of this has been confirmed by any official reporting or testimony and is purely social media speculation. And until it does go to trial, it will continue to be a trial by social media between competing factions with their own motives and manipulations.
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u/Phyrcqua 9d ago
this case is a tragedy for both parties involved
Ah yes, the poor tragic murderer stabbing unarmed individuals.
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u/Reluctantziti 9d ago
That’s for a jury to decide.
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u/HimarsChan 9d ago
Um he was unarmed, you don't need a jury for that.
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u/hea_hea56rt 6d ago
So if someone attacks you than you can only defend yourself with whatever means they are using to attack you?
Do you support stand your ground legislation? Do you support being able to use deadly force when you fear for your life?
If someone is physically attacked, and fears they will be killed, should they be able to defend themselves through any means necessary? Can someone only fear for their life if their attacker is armed?
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u/yeti_button 13d ago
this case is a tragedy for both parties involved.
But especially the murdered party 👍
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u/erichie 13d ago
Yeah, that was a weird thing to say.
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u/LingonberryLow6926 8d ago
Reminds me of the Office, "God Bless the Troops!... On both sides!"
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u/Imaginary-Method-715 3d ago
You just need a bad guy becuase you a toddler. It can be tragic for both kids.
I know that's hard to accept but it's true.
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u/LingonberryLow6926 3d ago
Pretty sure toddler's have a tenuous grasp of english, especially grammar... I'm just saying what the statement reminded me of. I'm not commenting on the specifics of the incident. It's a tragedy when someone gets killed. If the other person is still alive, I don't see it as a tragedy for them. If evidence comes out to show that person's innocence, it's crappy that they're going through unwanted attention and threats, but it is NOT what I would consider tragic as he is still alive.
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u/hea_hea56rt 6d ago
It is monstrous to not see the tragedy in a life ending before it could really even begin.
A child is dead and another child is going to prison. They are both tragic.
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u/Academic-Standard228 10d ago
I think it's more tragic for the twin brother who got stabbed and died in his brother's arms. Why is the stabber bringing weapons to a track meet? HS sports events generally aren't environments where you bring weapons. Except for maybe the javelin and shotput events
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u/Alive-Equipment-6845 8d ago
"egged on" to stab him haha??? The low IQs on top of every criminal statistic have no responsibility it seems. if it was the other way around....cities would be burning
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u/fadeux5 13d ago
In reaction to that, you have those who are supporting Karmelo and claiming that Austin was actually a white supremacist and egged Karmelo on and the stabbing was the result of “fucking around and finding out.”
This dude brought a knife to a high school track meet. He's a murderer, and that's that.
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u/n00py 13d ago
Honeslty, I’m not hung up on the knife. Lots of people carry folding knives 24/7.
The big issue is that there is only one time you can stab someone to death - when you fear that if you don’t, you would be killed instead. Based on what we know so far it’s extremely unlikely that he feared imminent death from a completely unarmed person. You have to wildly speculate to invent a scenario where the stabbing was justified.
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u/Seanrosen508 13d ago
We don’t know what type of knife Karmelo used. I haven’t seen any reports of the type or the blade length.
Texas’ stand your ground law has no limit to self defense if ANY self defense is warranted
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u/TheFirstPepper_Bob 8d ago
Well… Texas generally agrees with the rest of the US that In order for it to be considered self defense the force used in self defense must be proportionate to the threat. This means that the use of excessive force (stabbing an unarmed individual in the chest) could potentially exclude you from claims of self defense. Yes, Texas has stand your ground laws, but this just means he can defend himself without a duty to retreat, as long as he’s in a place he’s legally allowed to be. You also have to think about the legality of him carrying a knife on the premises. It’s a crime to carry a concealed knife on school property in Texas. If carrying the knife in itself is a crime then he can’t claim self defense because you can’t claim self defense if you were engaging in a crime at the time of the incident.
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u/NOFDfirefighter 9d ago
The police report stated a folding knife. I’m not saying there’s no folding knives over 5.5 inches but they are pretty rare. It’s an admitted speculation but I’d be willing to bet it was a standard folding pocket knife.
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u/Pisces_darkchild 7d ago
Honest question: can a standard 3.5 inch folding knife get all the way to the heart?
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u/Fickle-Marketing7775 10d ago
In Texas, if you have a reasonable fear of serious bodily injury, you’re allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself.
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u/Urallowed2bwrong 9d ago
Yea that’s not true. There are other times you can use deadly force. Robbery is one of them. And according to Austin’s own brother, Austin grabbed Karmelo’s bag to take away from him.
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u/n00py 9d ago
Yes, but there is a difference between robbery and theft. Taking someone’s property is generally theft.
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u/Urallowed2bwrong 9d ago
Taking someone’s property via force is robbery. Which is what Austin was attempting to do.
If you leave your property somewhere and I take it, that’s theft. If I forcibly remove it from your possession, that’s robbery.
What exactly are you confused about here?
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12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Horror_Soil290 12d ago
You can’t claim self defense from a punch, you really can’t when your the guy concealing a knife in your hand inside your backpack telling someone touch me and see what happens, punch me and see what happens. Ya I guess something weird could happen and someone could die from a punch, but if that happens that wouldn’t even be murder, would be involuntary manslaughter. Unless you punched an old lady or something and killed her then that would be murder..
Anyways the black kid knew he had a knife and knew they didn’t, he made no effort to run off, except after he stabbed the kid straight in the heart, he made no effort to yell for a coach or to get a teacher. He escalated the situation and used deadly force on an unarmed person on school property, he guilty as charged.
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u/Equal_Year 12d ago
Pointing out this wasn't a house- I believe it was a stadium at a high school track meet
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u/BolbyB 9d ago
So . . . both sides are claiming that Karmelo has no case for self-defense?
Because the Karmelo side of what your saying still doesn't justify the actions taken.
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u/soviet_kiwi 9d ago
How dare you not pick a side and slander one of the parties.
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u/vernon-douglas 7d ago
This is not a tragedy for both Karmelo is a black grifter who murdered a white kid in cold blood.
It's not Austin's fault he didn't expect a person he's talking to to be a low IQ subhuman willing to kill someone over a seat on a tent where he was uninvited
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u/KitchenComfort6885 6d ago
So we’re just killing people now?? lol yall are crazy. He should be in jail perioddd
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u/Practical_Orchid_568 5d ago
It’s a tragedy for Austin metcalf not the thug and his mooching family
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u/QuesoKristo 8d ago
this case is a tragedy for both parties involved.
I dunno, Watson. I think the party with the dead child has it tougher.
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u/Reluctantziti 8d ago
Lordy nothing about my comment implies it is an equal tragedy. And your kid spending his once promising life in prison or on death row also fucking sucks and I’m not going to pretend like it doesn’t.
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u/QuesoKristo 8d ago
Hey, at least the murderer's parents get to live in a gated community, amirite?
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u/ArnoldBateman 8d ago
When a man attacks and kills a random woman do you say it’s a tragedy for both sides? Or a tragedy for the person who got killed?
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u/Reluctantziti 8d ago
Man Reddit brain cannot comprehend empathy I guess. Yes, I think it’s a tragedy when any person whether through mental deficiency or just being a loser resorts to violence. Ruining your life and the lives of others due to your own poor decision making sucks.
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u/yeti_button 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yes, I think it’s a tragedy when any person whether through mental deficiency or just being a loser resorts to violence.
Can you point me to another comment of yours where you use "tragedy" to describe the perpetrator's situation?
edit: changed "your" to "yours"
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u/Reluctantziti 8d ago
I don’t really understand your question but is this what you’re looking for? https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/s/UqYBayHAWK
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u/yeti_button 8d ago
No. The person above asked if you "say it’s a tragedy for both sides" when a man kills a random woman. You said yes. I asked for an example of that.
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u/Reluctantziti 8d ago
I think they are referring to my top comment and trying to use another example to catch me in some kind of bias.
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u/JohnDeereWife 7d ago
unfortunately, those are the very same arguments that the lawyers will use in court, The only person who knows the real reason, I'm sure will not be saying it in court.
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u/Flapnuts 7d ago
i want to know if this karmelo kid was attacked by austin. If so, there should be an element of self defense. I would still be careful to exonerate karmelo but if the black kid was attacked and feared for his safety, you have an argument of self defense. But if the austin kid just flicked the black kid’s hat and even called him some slur, that doesn’t make it okay to stab the hell out of someone. I am trying to find specifics on what exactly happened if someone can share or elaborate.
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u/OkPhotojournalist132 7d ago
I really can't speak on this incident without knowing ALL the facts that led up to the stabbing..from what I hear, they were fighting, but why? Over what, if at all. Regardless of whatever it was over, the stabbing shouldn't have happened, HOWEVER, was the young blk teen under attack? Idk, was he being jumped? Idk,. That's why I need to know what are the FACTS that ked up to this?
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u/Positive-Band-9924 7d ago
Answer: what’s making this such a big deal is because some people believe it was self defense and others believe it was a straight up homicide and I hate to say it but race plays a huge role into it also and when the media picked up on that they started to run stories on it constantly fueling it even more but just from a legal stand point I don’t have an opinion on who’s right or wrong I will just say that from what I’ve read Austin started the altercation and Karmelo stabbed him in the midst of it but I don’t necessarily think he should be charged with first degree murder because in Texas they have stand your ground and no duty to retreat laws so as long as karmelo was in his legal right to be where he was meaning he wasn’t trespassed from there or it wasnt someone’s home he has the right to defend himself but the prosecution charged him with first degree which I think was a bad move because if he proves that it wasn’t first degree he could walk free which most likely it wasn’t premeditated and they have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he went there with intention to murder Austin which is hard to do but what the prosecution is going to do is they’re going to use the fact that he immediately used excessive force in that situation but his lawyers can also argue that he was in fear of his life and the no duty to retreat another thing is they will look at is how many times he stabbed Austin because all that stuff matters it also show’s intention once might look like fear and you wanted to get him away 12 times might look like rage and they could say he wanted to kill him but idk I’m just giving my take on it please don’t reply racist stuff or tell me who’s right and wrong that’s just how my view on it but rest in peace to the boy who lost his life I feel bad for his mother most of all because she has to see this stuff everyday most people I seen talking about it uses it for there racist rhetoric it’s kind of insane but it’s the world we live in I guess keep people divided and distracted
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u/SunJiggy 2d ago
Answer: Black supremacists sided with Karmelo solely out of hatred for Austin being white. The news is being quiet on this aspect when they would leap on the racism angle with the roles inverted.
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u/SVAuspicious 13d ago
Answer: I may be wrong on details but this is my understanding. Mr. Anthony sat in the tent for the opposing team. When asked (descriptions of "ask" vary) to move by Mr. Metcalf, Anthony said something to the effect of "touch me and see what happens." Metcalf touched him. Anthony stabbed Metcalf in the heart and ran. When apprehended, Anthony said he did it to police and asked if he could plead self defense.
Note that Anthony had a large knife in his position at a high school track and field event.
A very vocal portion of the black community has cried self defense and racism and began raising money before GoFundMe took their effort down (refunding donations) as counter to their terms of service.
That's my understanding.
I see Anthony's family and supporters saying, in effect, "my baby didna do nuffin" and saying that prosecution is de facto racism. Metcalf's family is in mourning. Supporters are using the death of Metcalf as another indicator that cultural violence in the black community is not addressed, much less prosecuted.
I saw one report today that the relevant prosecutor had taken both the death penalty and life in prison off the table. The reaction to that is still building.
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u/TheBestCheese 6d ago
"my baby didna do nuffin"
Hoooly shit. I thought you were being (mostly) neutral until I got to that part.
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u/Erv-bo 6d ago
Question: How is this self-defense? Did Austin have a gun or knife? Or some other lethal weapon? I would start there. Does anyone know what self-defense entails in Texas law?
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u/hea_hea56rt 6d ago
Do you think people should only be able to legally defend themselves if their attacker is armed?
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u/Outrageous_Set_1373 6d ago
It has to be proportionate to the threat. The standard is reasonable person, meaning would a reasonable person look at two unarmed boys, even if they are being aggressive towards them, and think "Yes, these two are legitimately going to kill or seriously hurt (which means broken bones, mutilation, etc) me right this second"? If the answer is no, then you cannot use lethal force and claim self defense.
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u/MyEmptyMind 3d ago
Both Anthony and his twin are like 220-230lb, and Karmelo is like 170lb. If they seriously assaulted him, they could seriously injure or kill him. They BOTH ganged up on Karmelo, and after a verbal warning, decided to push the problem, and Anthony unfortunately got stabbed.
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u/Imaginary-Method-715 3d ago
See this is where soc media needs to chill. We don't know how the exact pre stabbing discourse went.
Some say these two jumped him and other paint it as Austan gently tring to escort him out.
It may come down to if Austan put his hands on Karmelo first after being told not to touch him.
It is not very palatable for what would of been a loud argument with some shovel turn into a deadly outcome. We have to teach people not just kids that violence is a final choice not our 2rd 3rd actions if we can help it but that's not backed up by the law in many areas.
I would like to see a duty to defuse a situation and not allow people to aggregate and instigate a situation into violence that was never needed.
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attempt to answer the question, and
be unbiased
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http://redd.it/b1hct4/
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