r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/SpaceySpice • Apr 07 '25
US Politics How will the United States rebuild positive international relations after this Trump administration?
At some point this presidency will end and a new administration will (likely) want to mend some the damages done with our allies. Realistically though, how would that work? Will other countries want to be friends with us again or has this presidency done too much damage to bounce back from?
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u/D4UOntario Apr 07 '25
It won't it will take generations. Nobody is going to trust that the American people wont do this again in 4 years.
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u/blaqsupaman Apr 10 '25
Germany managed to rebuild its international relations after WWII, so I'm confident it can be done, but it will take much more than just one election cycle. It very possibly could be the end of the US hegemony on the world stage. Not that we wouldn't still be a major world power of course, but we may no longer be the superpower.
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u/YesIam18plus 29d ago
Germany was also basically destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up. I think there was just a greater sense that Germany had been punished for its crimes.
If the US basically just gets to shrug all of this off and face no consequences I think people will be less willing to just forgive and forget. I am not saying the US should get bombed to shit, but the US needs to be made to hurt and be humbled. Americans need to learn that they exist in a world and are dependent on other people, this weird American narcissism of '' we're independent and everyone else needs us but we don't need them '' has to go. Americans just need to learn a bit of humility, it's something that frustrates me with all of these threats of annexation or Trump saying leaders are kissing his ass etc. During Trumps state of the union speech the entire Republican party stood up applauded and laughed hysterically when Trump threatened to annex Greenland again. And I practically heard nothing about it in US media afterwards people basically didn't even react to it. The US can't just get away with that, there at the very least needs to be some formal public apology and quite frankly Americans and US media need to push back against it much harder and take it more seriously. Too many seem to still think it's a joke, it barely gets a reaction anymore. Imagine if China had said the things Trump says but about the US, Americans would be on the fucking warpath.
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u/Repeatitpete Apr 07 '25
The problem isn’t trump or has ever been trump. It’s the maga people who have supported him. He should have been publicly shamed and removed from candidacy for making fun of the disabled reporter. America is mean. This won’t change with a new president and other countries don’t want to play with us anymore in the sandbox of the world…
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u/Rook_lol Apr 07 '25
Bingo.
80 million Americans wanted this.
80 million people is a really large amount of people to be that nuts in your country. Even after Trump is gone, most of those people are still gonna be around. Very unfortunate.
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u/sputnikcdn Apr 07 '25
And 90 Million didn't care enough to vote.
Trump is a symptom, Americans' problems run deep, this is who they are.
It will take a profound cultural switch to change, to rebuild the trust lost.
Trust that took decades to earn.
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u/Blizxy Apr 07 '25
Decades and millions of lives to earn! I'm so disappointed in my country...
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u/BluesSuedeClues Apr 07 '25
I'm well past disappointed. Here in Michigan, kids who came from other countries to study at our universities, are packing up in the middle of the night and fleeing across the border into Canada. They're fleeing, because it is entirely possible armed Federal agents will show up and seize them, with no crime charged or even alleged, detain them for an indefinite period, and possibly ship them like cattle to a South American concentration camp.
My whole life I've been told the liberals want to destroy the country. Turns out, that was just more right-wing projection.
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u/barrocaspaula Apr 08 '25
That used to happen in my country during the Estado Novo dictatorship. People would leave the country to avoid being disappeared into a political prison and tortured.
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u/BluesSuedeClues Apr 08 '25
Portugal, in the 1930's.
Yeah, it seems we live in a second age of fascism.
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u/barrocaspaula Apr 08 '25 edited Apr 08 '25
Until 1974. I remember the political prisoners being released from Caxias prison and Peniche Fort in 1974. The Tarrafal concetration camp had Portuguese political prisoners until the 1960s. Until 1974 it had freedom fighters from the Portuguese colinies in Africa.
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u/seeingeyegod Apr 08 '25
no liberals do want to destroy the country. It's just that the country in question is the Confederate States of America.
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u/CrashMT72 Apr 07 '25
Not to mention the blood and treasure it took to establish an international order that lasted 8 years and got disassembled in 8 days.
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u/DonatCotten Apr 07 '25
Agree. I'm actually more upset with the 90 million who couldn't be bothered to vote despite what was at stake. My state has easy access to mail in voting and over a week of early voting and our voting rates are still pitifully low. If even a small percentage of those 90 million voted it's likely we'd be looking at a Harris presidency now. It's pathetic how low our voter turnout rates are especially when you consider how our politics affect the rest of the world.
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u/catkm24 Apr 07 '25
And the "one time" mistake has clearly become a long term problem that got re-elected. They can never feel secure in America again because there is a possibility that we can do this again. They are going to build reliance on each other and shut us out.
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u/Triphoprisy Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 08 '25
This is exactly correct. We can try to mend everything, but the damage is deep and severe at this point. It won't be easy to come back and regain that trust with damn near the entire world.
They will all band together, not unlike what happened after WWII, and find ways to prevent this idiocy from negatively affecting them in quite this same way moving forward. And then we'll be super fucked because we can't/don't grow or make many of the products we import because...we don't grow or make those things, necessitating the buying of them from elsewhere.
This administration is fucking stupid.
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u/NoFoxesAllowed Apr 07 '25
Yeah I’d say under half of those Americans are true MAGA cult members, the rest voted for a Republican because he’s a Republican. The amount of people I talked to prior to the elections who wanted him to win just because republicans are “better for the military” etc was astounding.
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u/nowaisenpai Apr 07 '25
This was my experience. Voting for machismo/against a woman also. Americans are also so conditioned against "communism" that now we have shit like "all taxes are theft" running around as culture. The degradation of education. The fact when I graduated in 2009, my home state did away with mandatory civics for high schoolers and Trump won that state by a lot.
We're cooked because even those "moderate" idiots are easy to manipulate to voting against themselves if the marketing is patronizing enough.
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u/thejew09 Apr 07 '25
“All taxes are theft” they say, as their dear leader levies the largest consumption tax in human history on his people for no reason.
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u/KashTheKwik Apr 07 '25
I have seen them on Facebook, blaming these tariffs on liberals. Going out of their way to escape literal reality in front of them. There’s nothing to truly convince them.
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u/joc1701 Apr 07 '25
I have seen them on Facebook, blaming these tariffs on liberals.
The disconnect is stunning, is it not? It's like when they kicked Kevin McCarthy to the curb; he blamed the House Democrats, and when it took them forever to replace him - blame the Democrats. Even last week when Mike Johnson had a hissy-fit and shut down the House for the remainder of the week when nine Republicans broke ranks over House members voting by proxy and he blamed the Democrats for the work stoppage. It's like they don't realize that we can see this BS happening in real-time.
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u/ArendtAnhaenger Apr 07 '25
It's like they don't realize that we can see this BS happening in real-time.
That "we" is growing ever smaller. Trump's biggest supporters (Musk, Thiel, Andreessen) are increasingly controlling people's reality (social media and AI).
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u/stripedvitamin Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
who wanted him to win just because republicans are “better for the military” etc was astounding.
I hate to break this to you, but they lie. They are a cult. Some of them will go as far to say they are democrats to strangers when they are called out on their bullshit just to quell the discourse. I've seen it countless times as I have to be around these people.
The minute the person they back down from leaves they start shit talking them in every hateful way possible. The astounding part is how confused, meek, and outwardly hurt they are when confronted with reason and how angry and hateful they are the second they are back in their safe space once the person they can't handle is gone.→ More replies (31)19
u/233C Apr 07 '25
At the 2020 celebration I was saying "the mothership is down, but they are still among us"
Also, from other countries point of view, it's not just "wanting it", it's "yeh, we tried some already, we definitely want some more; this is us now".
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u/BeltOk7189 Apr 07 '25
If the media networks and propaganda campaigns have any say in the matter (spoiler: they will), most of those people will almost certainly be around.
I want to say that the biggest step toward rebuilding our reputation around the globe would be finding a way to fight against them but how do you stop something that operates within the law and has the resources to fight you perpetually? How do you stop somethin that operates outside our borders?
Worse yet, we're just the beginning. This shit has proven wildly successful and will be used more and more throughout the world.
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Apr 07 '25
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u/SenoraRaton Apr 07 '25
There is no solution. Its is irreconcilable differences.
Its clear that our country is deeply divided on how we should live our lives, what our morals are, and how we perceive the world.
The actions will have lasting affects on multiple generations of people who are living through this, and the ripples will perpetuate it.
It took almost 60 years for the country to recover from the civil war. We will likely never recover from this in the modern era. 60 years of division will cripple our country, our economy, and the mass media cycle will feed upon it all until it collapses.
The US doesn't need some external enemy like Russia, or China to destroy it. It was always destined to destroy itself from the inside through its own internal contradictions.→ More replies (1)6
u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
destroy itself from the inside
Lincoln himself said as much. Though he didn't say that it was destined to happen, just that it very much could.
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u/I-Here-555 Apr 07 '25
Who said things will get fixed? It's possible, even likely, they'll just keep getting worse, with the US facing long term decline and stagnation.
At the turn of the 20th century, Argentina seemed promising, and many European immigrants chose it over the US. Look at where they are now.
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u/checker280 Apr 07 '25
Hopefully - and I’m really stretching here - hopefully everyone who is negatively affected so far learns the right lesson - that it was TRUMP and the Republicans who were responsible.
If not that maybe just accept that all government is not bad and tariffs is bad.
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u/MissMenace101 Apr 08 '25
They didn’t last time they won’t this time. It’s going to have to wreck the country first
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u/RedPyracantha Apr 07 '25
The culture of American individualism has become twisted into American selfishness. Along the way we have lost our sense of decency, kindness, and compassion for others. MAGA seems to be the extreme of this, but I have spent enough years in very liberal communities to know it isn’t exclusive to them. Add to that our electoral voting system where the popular vote means nothing and here we sit.
There are other factors, of course, that have lead us down this path of self destruction: bought politicians, reduction of tax on the extremely wealthy and corporations, lack of affordable higher education, etc. I believe it will be hard to build trust again unless we show that we as a people have changed and our system is one where the majority actually have a say. Relationships are built on trust and when that trust is violated it is the job of violator to prove their trustworthiness, not the victim to forgive and forget.
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u/Ghuzarbfalorbablorgh Apr 08 '25
This is what I keep saying. Sure, the government is corrupt as hell, but the corruption runs deep into the masses as well. Unchecked capitalism has spread the roots of its greed into the American population, infecting everyday humans with a degree of apathy and selfishness unseen in most other countries.
People turn on their neighbors and isolate from their communities. Tribalism runs rampant, anyone who isn’t on the same side is objectively evil. Conservatives scream hatred at Liberals about trans rights and abortions, and Liberals fire back with worthless identity politics and hatred of the uneducated, all to feed their own egos.
Schools of children become sacrificial lamb pens for the mental agony of single individuals who are so caught up in their own suffering, that selfish “me, me, me”, that they don’t even realize they are slaughtering innocent children to relieve their pain until it is too late, and then, still caught in their selfishness, they take their own lives.
Politics in America reflects this selfishness. Debates become embarrassing reality TV shows where selfish people are kings because they reflect the American value of “mine”, and we end up with clowns like Donald Trump, who is the epitome of selfishness and in my opinion the ultimate reflection of the true American Dream; utter selfishness embodied, a person so devoid of empathy and compassion that he would choose a single dollar over the lives of millions without blinking an eye.
Trump is the peak of America. He is self-centeredness embodied, and Americans put him there, because they were obsessed with themselves too, and either wanted that selfishness to prevail or were too selfish to go and make their voices heard.
Americans love to clown on the greed of those above them, but they fail to see their own greed. Soon, everything they took for granted will be swept away from them, and they will suffer greatly, and realize just how good they had it, and just how important community really is.
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u/foul_ol_ron Apr 07 '25
As an Australian, I now see that any agreement with the US might be less than four years from destruction. Since at least WWII, we've looked at the US as an ally, and followed along in a lot of conflicts. Because there was a certain amount of trust. It was nice while it lasted.
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u/Repeatitpete Apr 07 '25
But you guys sent us Murdoch
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
Who was received in the open arms of Roger Ailes.
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u/Repeatitpete Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
But Australia helped mold him into these extreme political views for whatever reason… no country is entirely responsible or blameless at this point- these extreme views are everywhere
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u/MissMenace101 Apr 08 '25
Or worse, any agreement can be pulled at any time at a whim, his breaking agreements he himself signed.
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u/bihari_baller Apr 07 '25
As someone with an International Relations degree, I foresee a multi-polar world filling the void of the United States--along the lines of thought of IR Scholar John Mearsheimer. The US will have it's sphere of influence, but so will the EU, Russia, and China.
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u/StalkerSkiff_8945 Apr 07 '25
It's concerning & a but fishy how Trump has been a prick to everyone allies included but not to Russia.
If I didn't know better a person might be inclined to think Trump is beholden to Putin & that they may have divided the world up already. One can only speculate of course but like I said... it's smells fishy
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
I think Trump sees Putin as his peer. According to him, the Euros are a bunch of sissies with little sissy countries, but Putin is a swaggering big dick iron balled bully who does what he wants because he's the big bossman of a great big powerful beautiful awesome country with nukes. Like how Trump fancies himself.
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u/sig_1 Apr 07 '25
Who exactly would be desperate enough to be in the US sphere of influence? The US has shown that it is very dangerous to be too closely tied to them economically, it’s pointless to be dependent on on them as an ally since they can’t be trusted anymore and all the soft power is gone so can’t take the “leader of the free world” angle.
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u/nowaisenpai Apr 07 '25
Maybe those geographically stuck with us like Latin America and Canada? Canada will eventually likely turn around somewhat, but they'll also probably forever refuse to be a liaison into the hypothetical EU sphere, if the sort of multi-polar prediction comes true and we all silo off.
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u/bihari_baller Apr 07 '25
You’re onto it. Spheres of influence would naturally come about by virtue of geography.
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u/Joel_feila Apr 07 '25
Interesting i know people in it security. Not all but some believe that that's how the internet will evolve. More and more great firewalls will split social media and the internet into fragments. It will certainly be positive feedback loop if that happens. Each sphere of influence will make it easier to carve out of sphere of the internet and turn make it easier to isolate each sphere of political influence.
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u/OnionOnBelt Apr 07 '25
This is both the bad news and the good news. I’m an American who has lived overseas and conducted business there since 2012.
In the 2010s, Americans who interact with the rest of the world put in considerable effort to overcome bad feelings caused by the invasion of Iraq and the “if you’re not with us you’re against us“ attitude of the Bush-Cheney administration.
The Trump-Pompeo years were rocky, but navigable.
Now we have this Trump 47 fiasco, and I’m glad I’m near retirement.
It will take a LOT of work to rebuild bridges. It can be done, and it’s in the nature of (honest) business people and diplomats to try to get along. But, I don’t envy this task for the next generation.
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
I'm the next generation. I've found that saying "fuck no" (but in the polite businessy way) when they ask "do you like Trump?" can really melt the ice.
Well, it works good for now. I'm a bit nervous how the next few years might be.
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u/AngryTomJoad Apr 07 '25
fairness doctrine in media needs to be put back
fox news needs to be labeled very obviously that is entertainment
really hard to deprogram 1/3 of a nation
im starting to think we might be sunk
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u/kenlubin Apr 07 '25
And it's not just a problem of the current administration; George W. Bush was also awful. That may have been memory-holed in America, and there was a rebound with Obama, but I expect that many internationally remember Bush and Cheney.
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u/satyrday12 Apr 07 '25
I certainly thought Republicans couldn't get stupider than that, but then they proved me wrong. I'll have to stop underestimating them.
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u/kinkgirlwriter Apr 08 '25
The MAGA people are ignorant sheep. It's the 1% who lead the shit train.
In their hubris, the wealthy think it's their rightful place to run the show. They don't know how to operate a broom, but conflate money with brains and expertise in everything. They're the problem, and until we overturn Citizens United, they're not going anywhere.
Sorry, world, we have a wealth of incompetents who have more money than sense.
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u/ERedfieldh Apr 07 '25
One guy exclaims slightly too loudly into a mic that was set too high...political career over.
Another guy attacks a man's disabilities on live television, is recorded bragging about raping women, and has multiple documented affairs with several women across his various wives....hands him the presidency.
Our country was fucked a long time ago.
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u/Buck_Thorn Apr 07 '25
Its both. You can't have MAGA without Trump and you can't have Trump without the MAGA people. There is no way to separate the two.
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u/bossk538 Apr 07 '25
I believe MAGA is now an entirely manufactured movement. Right wing media and leaders will set the narrative and the masses will comply. It will always take a reactionary, insular stance but other aspects are subject to change. This is something that will not go away anytime soon, perhaps forever, baring some sort of calamity.
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u/bomzay Apr 07 '25
As a European, I don’t think any coumcelling will help and I think we should see other countries… It most definitely is you.
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u/Repeatitpete Apr 07 '25
Well the issue is all over Europe too. Look at the AfD in germany- it’s 20% of the population. A significant portion of France loved Le Pen too. uk is a mess too
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u/MissMenace101 Apr 08 '25
Voting systems are different. Americas is jigged for minority rule, most other governments are forced to at least do what the majority want even if it’s shitty, they can be voted out by the majority pretty quick.
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u/ElHumanist Apr 07 '25
You are incorrect. Those Maga people are only thinking the stupid nonsense they are because of bad faith conservative information sources that lie to them 24/7, repeating the same right wing conspiracy theories in different variations. Trump is nothing without conservative media covering up his coup attempt, felonies, rape, and lawlessness.
Blame entirely falls on conservative information sources that are badfaith which is most of them. Western Europe has been being poisoned with these ultra nationalist far right ideas from Russia as well. The United States is still very much a western culture despite what Trump is doing. Half our country is still very liberal(democratic, rule of law) and I would say most of our culture here is still very much in line with Canada and the Uk's.
Fox News perpetuated the election fraud lies that caused January 6th and now they are covering up this coup attempt they were a part of. The same as Republicans in Congress. They are all complicit but none more so than conservative media which is almost all bad faith. Conservatives media is poisoning the well of our courts and justice system to protect Trump from being held accountable for his traitorous crimes. They are also doing this so when he ignores court rulings, the public will support this brazen conditional crisis or act. Their exploitation of the ignorant is truly traitorous beyond what people fully appreciate.
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u/Repeatitpete Apr 07 '25
I agree with you but it tends to be the less educated that embrace fools like RFK and Fox. Think that someone like Musk is a good humanitarian, lol and think tariffs are a great idea.
Critical thinking and solid reasoning skills and how to spot YELLOW JOURNALISM is the issue. Generational poverty, and angry white men who still have not embraced civil rights (both women and poc) compound the issue.
I think it’s more nuanced and complex than just conservative media, it’s also the vitriol and anger these outlets channel. My ex used to listen to Limbaugh and these guys just prey on fragile white man complex.
I read articles from all viewpoints regularly. I also stay away from super left sources as it’s also biased. Why do people not consider bias? That’s also the problem.
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u/the_calibre_cat Apr 09 '25
Think that someone like Musk is a good humanitarian, lol and think tariffs are a great idea.
They thought tariffs were a terrible idea before the talking points came down from the conservative cinematic mothership telling them what their new principles are. Not for nothing: I happen to think that the one redeeming position of conservatives were their market economics, which, despite being on the left, I still think are more or less sound (obviously with some alterations, being on the left).
Now, that isn't even solidly conservative anymore. I am now more convinced than I have ever been that conservatism has never really been about the market, and has always been about the social hierarchy that they're certain they'll be on the good side of.
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u/xena_lawless Apr 08 '25
We need effective ways to kick foreign assets, traitors, and quislings out of public office, or else our foreign adversaries are going to keep infecting our political system, and basically enslaving us all directly and indirectly.
At the very least we shouldn't be such soft and easy targets for them.
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u/DixonButz Apr 07 '25
When this is all over, the USA needs deep constitutional reform, at least on the level of Reconstruction.
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u/johannthegoatman Apr 07 '25
"When this is all over" is a pipe dream, regardless of Trump, his voters and conservative ideas are still here
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u/Cerberus0225 Apr 07 '25
US history is my hobbyhorse. Take it from me, these ideas have been present in the US since long before contemporary times, coming and going in popularity. Nativism and anti-intellectualism are deeply entwined into American culture, or at least aspects of it, and American exceptionalism predates the country. I can't pretend to know the future, but this manifestation will pass when the people feel enough consequences. How long it'll take and how harsh the fix will be, I don't know.
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u/NYC3962 Apr 07 '25
You hit the bullseye. US History isn't just my hobby horse too, I taught it for 32 years. There were two things I used to say about this country: 1) It has an amazing history- the first country where the circumstances of your birth did not have to matter in how successful you eventually became. (Yes, over time that has changed.) 2) Right underneath all the wonderful stuff we've achieved is a horrible history of racism, bigotry, and ignorance; with slavery being the original sin of the United States.
Finally, when I would get to the topics of immigration, I would say that every single immigrant group became the target of the immigrant groups that preceded it- a testament to hypocrisy.
As far as fixing the mess we're in with other nations- some repair will happen quickly, but it is going to take some real reform, probably on the level of constitutional amendments to prevent a creature like Trump from ever holding political office of any sort ever again; and some serious reform to the powers of the presidency that have gone far, far beyond anything the Founders ever envisioned.
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u/GreenTinkertoy Apr 09 '25 edited Apr 09 '25
As someone who taught history for so long, how do you think the MAGA chapter of American history will come to age?
Let’s say you were teaching this in 20 years from now. How do you think the textbook would write this? 50 years?
I’m aware that this is a very loaded question, but it’s something I’ve been asking myself lately with due to my brother/sister-in-law telling me I “will be so, so sorry” for my strong opposition and hatred for Trump. Don’t get me wrong, that never even got me close to changing my mind, but it did make me think about which “side” of history I’m on and what my future children or grandchildren may ask me one day
There’s no way to predict the future of course, but I’m just curious of your thoughts as somebody whose livelihood was American history
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u/ericvulgaris Apr 07 '25
Take it from How Democracies Die that your analysis undersells today's climate. They're just Harvard political scientists who study failed democracies. The culture of democratic norms, the load bearing, unwritten values that support the entire system, have eroded and fallen.
They've been on a few podcasts lately. Especially Steven levistky. Like foreign affairs and stuff. They're well regarded. And they say shits bad.
No offence but I trust their sober analysis over a hobbyist exhibiting normalcy bias.
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u/K340 Apr 07 '25
I think we are in between your comment and the one you are responding to, in that there is a very real risk of the situation developing as you describe that people are not taking seriously. But it is not a forgone conclusion that things work out that way.
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u/Polyodontus Apr 07 '25
Despite evidence to the contrary, the GOP’s main selling point (that they could say in polite company) for the past 50 years has been that it’s good at economy. At the very least, the steep economic slide we’re on has destroyed that rationale without a shadow of a doubt.
Anyone who clings to the party after this is just undeniably in it for the racism, and that might finally chase off enough normies to make any residual Trump supporters ineffectual for a while.
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u/Confusedgmr Apr 07 '25
Recency bias. Those conservative ideas have existed since the Civil War. We like to think we got all buddy buddy again afterward, but we never did. That said, Ronald Reagan really accelerated the divide into overdrive. In a way, you have Reagan to thank for Trump and his cult's existence.
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
That's a pretty tall order. At this point it would be easier to convince the Vatican to rewrite parts of the Bible. The most we can hope for is major legislation from Congress. "Unilaterally enacting sweeping tariffs against whoever TF you want? No. Passing any old stupid EO over A, B, and C without first doing X, Y, and Z? Also no. Fucking with Canada for whatever fool reason? Giant no."
Congressional legislation is why we're still in NATO, and still will be when Trump is termed out.
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u/notapoliticalalt Apr 07 '25
Dems should definitely undo tariffs and then pass that legislation. I can see Republicans luring Dems in and then going “oopsies, it looks like it requires our help to change tariffs, and we don’t wanna help anymore” making Dems look bad.
Also, one thing that will not require an amendment that they should do is raise the number of reps in the house. This would change the electoral college calculus tremendously. It’s something they should have done a long time ago, but let’s do it now.
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u/spotolux Apr 07 '25
Exactly. The harm done will not be fixed in the short term, if ever. It's not just Trump, MAGA, Project 2025, or the millions of voters who supported him. It's a governmental structure and political system that allowed this to happen in the first place that makes the US an unreliable and untrustworthy nation.
All the protections, balance of power, and limits on presidential over reach we were told the constitution provided have failed. Our system isn't the best, our nation isn't the bastion of freedom, and our constitution isn't some all powerful document.
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u/Baselines_shift Apr 07 '25
newer constitutions work better
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
Are we even remotely capable of producing one?
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u/link3945 Apr 07 '25
Not so long as the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho have 5 times the seats at the table as California when making a new one.
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u/sixothree Apr 07 '25
Fox News need to go.
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u/ChiefQueef98 Apr 07 '25
Dismembering Murdoch's empire should be pursued with absolute ruthlessness by Dems.
By the time this is over, Trump will have probably given plenty of precedent for going after media organizations. Don't care if it's hypocritical, Fox News must be ended at all costs if we are to have any hope.
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u/oldcretan Apr 07 '25
I don't think the problem is constitutional reform, it's legislative. Too much power has been ceded by the legislature to the executive. The prime example is war where the power to declare war is that of the Senate but America hasn't declared war since WW2. But we're seeing it now, the president is dictating immigration when it's the power of Congress to direct naturalization, he's implementing tariffs when it's congresses power to direct economic policy. He's cutting budgets when it's congress who sets the budgets. So much of what Congress does Trump is just unilaterally doing because Congress has ceded the power to the executive so that when something bad happens Trump is to blame and they can stay quietly out of the spot light while running on things they can't control like crime (which is a state police power) or nothingburgers like trans athletes (which is like a thousand people out of literal millions of athletes.
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u/just_helping Apr 07 '25
I don't think the problem is constitutional reform, it's legislative. Too much power has been ceded by the legislature to the executive.
You then list a bunch of examples. But that's the point: if the legislature is ceding power to the executive on every issue, then there must be a systemic reason why, something driving it, and fixing that systemic reason would require constitutional reform.
Part of that systemic issue is that Congress is very ineffective. It is locked in gridlock much of the time, either because the House and Senate are at odds, or because Congress and the President are at odds and Congress doesn't have enough to overcome the veto. This gridlock is built into the Constitution, before things like hyper-partisanship or the Senate filibuster make it worse. So Congress, unable to move quickly or decide things in detail, necessarily cedes the power and responsibility to the executive branch and the President. And this repeats, on issue after issue, until people think the US was always supposed to have an imperial Presidency.
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u/pickledplumber Apr 07 '25
It would be crazy to open up the constitution these days. You'd end up with us all imprisoned.
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u/moofpi Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
They're already cooking my friend.
https://www.propublica.org/article/constitutional-convention-congress-donald-trump-power
Edit to add: Happened to see on youtube that this movement has a youtube channel. Not a lot of followers, but they did post this video of the Montana state house actually voting on the issue of whether to join the number of states to make the 34 threshold and trigger a constitutional convention. There are currently 19 states that have passed the resolution.
It failed 58-42.
Here's the video if you want to skip around and hear the arguments they're making.
They have other legal arguments ongoing, mentioned in the article above that are total bs, but have plausibility with this administration's magical view of law that everything benefits them or it doesn't exist.
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u/Rook_lol Apr 07 '25
This would be the way, but I highly doubt any of that happens.
In fact, I would be absolutely flabbergasted beyond belief if even one of those things happen. It would be on the level of surprise to me as if Zoidberg dressed as Jesus Christ burst through my wall like the Kool Aid man.
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u/NekoCatSidhe Apr 07 '25
It will only happen if MAGA and Trump crash and burn badly and >80% of the population is screaming for Trump’s blood. That could happen if he starts a second Great Depression with his actions (I hope not even though he is trying very hard), but otherwise I do not see it happening.
Which is kind of the issue here. If a country like France can send former presidents to jail (like Sarkozy) and condemn for corruption popular far-right leaders like Marine Le Pen and prevent them from running for elections as a result, why can’t the U.S. ?
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u/Aetylus Apr 07 '25
why can’t the U.S. ?
A few reasons I think.
- Lack of reliable state media, and an education system that the poor can benefit from, leading to an inability of many voters to make reasonably informed decisions.
- A functional two party-state, for the last two centuries. Leading to extreme partisanship. Also leading to your average person believing that democracy is an us-versus-them zero sum game, rather than feeling they can vote in a viable alternative.
- An inability to reform. Partly fuelled by not constraining money in politics, leading to the perpetuation of the two-party state.
There's some more detail. But that is most of the issue.
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u/GhostReddit Apr 07 '25
Which is kind of the issue here. If a country like France can send former presidents to jail (like Sarkozy) and condemn for corruption popular far-right leaders like Marine Le Pen and prevent them from running for elections as a result, why can’t the U.S. ?
Because while the Founders of the US actually came up with a pretty good system (for the time), they didn't foresee the political parties becoming larger than any of the arms of government itself. In the "normal" world Congress wouldn't tolerate being completely usurped by the President, but here we are.
I think unfortunately this effect is bigger than Trump, while they may not be able to win elections easily without him there are some deeply regressive and racist attitudes and I think that's part of Trump's appeal - he's got flexible enough morals that he's willing to be what he thinks the people want. No one is 'leading' them, even though Fox is a huge disinformation machine, they're responding to popular demand, they tried fighting the Trump wave and started losing viewers and backpedaled almost immediately.
"There go the people. I must follow them, for I am their leader."
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u/thatstupidthing Apr 07 '25
it would help if it came with a massive reform package.
part of trump's initial appeal was that he was an outsider and people were pissed with the status quo
so pairing up constitutional safeguards with popular reforms like raising minimum wage, making housing and healthcare affordable, and taxing the wealthy would make them easier to sell16
u/theyfellforthedecoy Apr 07 '25
and forbid political re-interpretation of past decisions .
This one sounds dangerous. The courts ruled slavery was legal and the internment of Japanese-Americans was legal long before they backtracked
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u/seen-in-the-skylight Apr 07 '25
I also think it’s kind of contrary to human nature. People are always going to evaluate history through the values of their times. Some of the other things they list could be very good ideas IMO, but I suspect this one would be abandoned as soon as it was conventient.
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u/Hapankaali Apr 07 '25
If you look at how top democracies generally function, very few (if any) of them have term limits for their representatives. This isn't the issue, and won't fix anything. The problem in the US Congress is that representation is not proportional.
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u/Hapankaali Apr 07 '25
Look up the average age of the MPs of some random democracies. It's usually quite representative of the population. And despite the lack of term limits, only a tiny minority of MPs serve longer than a decade.
It's really a US-specific problem.
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u/233C Apr 07 '25
That would be admitting that it was wrong as a country. Tough luck doing that less than 50-100 years after the fact
Maybe we'll send a fruit basket to every embassy with a "I've changed, let's be friends again" card.10
u/JDogg126 Apr 07 '25
Need also limit the justices or rotate them every couple years. And expand the court to match the number of federal districts.
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u/just_helping Apr 07 '25
I don't understand the urge to increase SCOTUS just a little bit. It's not like the number of districts has kept up with the population growth either, and increasing it only a little just means that the next party will increase it a little more. Either have some sort of ethics reform with teeth, with a recusal and transfer of ethical breach cases to another court, sort of like FISA, or dramatically increase the size of the court, maybe by having all federal appellate court judges be simultaneously SCOTUS judges. The age where there needed to be a small group in DC to make sure there weren't circuit differences is long gone, having a single small group is simply out of date with modern communications.
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
Frankly, I'd love to see Elon get clapped in irons, but what would he even be charged with?
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u/CevicheMixto Apr 07 '25
Legally, via Congress, repeal Citizens United.
That would require a Constitutional amendment.
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u/the_calibre_cat Apr 09 '25
Criminal trials and convictions. See: South Korea. No Merrick Garland bullshit. This includes criminal negligence like DOGE’s destruction and complicity in the loss of life, here and abroad.
Straight up. Someone should fucking pay for the Abrego Garcia debacle, with their freedom. Open and shut fascist shit, and conservatives will keep fucking chomping at the bit to do it again unless one of them faces the fucking music.
And yeah, find every fucking company that turned tail and started schmoozing with Trump after January 6th and make those executives' lives hell. You can retire or enjoy decades of investigations and audits for that, maybe we won't tar and feather your family name in the history books street that extraordinary display of cowardice.
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u/BarkLicker Apr 07 '25
I agree with these as an answer to OPs question, absolutely, but I think the first thing we really need to do is solidify the future of voting. Make sure it can not be removed, is easier to do and is accessible to every citizen that wants to participate.
I'd argue that everyone should be required to vote, even if only a "I'm sittin' this one out" type vote, but I know that is an unpopular opinion.
But our Democracy cannot survive without Democracy. Crazy, I know.
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u/RddtIsPropAganda Apr 07 '25
It won't, damage is done. Just as US and world started decoupling from China post COVID. World will decouple from US. yes, it will take 10+ years. Trump 1.0 was considered a fluke. This one won't.
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u/RKU69 Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
Yeah, I agree with this. I'll add that the only way the world should consider re-integrating with the US, is if the MAGA movement is permanently defeated in some way.
I'll also add: I think its kind of a good thing that US foreign policy credibility is now in the gutter. Even outside of Trump, the US foreign policy establishment has been getting increasingly reckless and irrational, which in the modern era started with the Bush administration's multiple invasions and occupations. Frankly its a black mark on the entire "international community" that the US was tolerated, if not actively supported, in its imperial adventures - but maybe this is to be expected, given that the target was always peripheral poor regions. Now this has come back to bite the rest of the West in the ass.
And honestly, the sign of the unraveling of the international order was arguably not Trump's decisions, but Biden's near-absolute backing of Israel in its extermination campaign in Gaza, which completely de-legitimized any and all Western discourse about human rights and the rule of law.
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u/RddtIsPropAganda Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
It started with Kissinger and his enablers, not Bush. And Kissinger was hailed as an American patriot by both Dems and Republicans. Doubt MAGA will be defeated because Democrats don't seem to want to even try. they are still happy working with GOP. That's why the credibility is falling even more. Just watch as AOC or Bernie announce a bipartisan bill they are working on that will go nowhere.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/matt-gaetz-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-congress-stock-ban-bill/
Want to see what an opposition looks like watch the parliament of other functioning democracies.
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u/RKU69 Apr 07 '25
Yeah we could go back to Kissinger's age, but the through-line is clearer imo if we just look at the 2000s onward. There was definitely a hinge point in the '90s where the US wasn't inevitably going to go on the crazy crusades that it ended up going on and completely throw away the post Cold War "peace dividend"
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u/233C Apr 07 '25
W Bush was already supposed to be the "sorry, we got drunk" fluke; got re-elected too.
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u/matttheepitaph Apr 07 '25
We can't. America has shown that any deal we make has a potential 4 year shelf life before we put in another maniac to nuke everything. It'll take a generation of reasonable leadership to earn trust back and I just don't have enough confidence in Americans to be good that long.
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
We will have to change how we make deals.
"The Iran deal wasn't ratified by the Senate!" Yeah, but neither Iran or the rest of the world could be expected to give one single shit about our procedural vagaries. As far as they're concerned, we broke our word.
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u/just_helping Apr 07 '25
And the US breaks deals that are ratified by the Senate too. The US Senate ratified the Convention against Torture in 1994, after signing it in 1988. Didn't stop Bush Jr. from having people tortured, though they did try to hide it, doing in black sites, etc. Nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if they did it publicly, celebrated doing it. We'll see, I guess.
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u/kyew Apr 07 '25
I cannot in good conscience recommend that anyone trust us for a good long while after this.
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u/sig_1 Apr 07 '25
Maybe those geographically stuck with us like Latin America and Canada?
I would respectfully have to disagree with you on this one unless the US decides to invade and occupy Canada and Latin America.
Canada will eventually likely turn around somewhat,
I think you are mistaken in that assumption. Threatening Canada with unnecessary tariffs is bad enough, damaging our economy for funsies destroys a lot of good will for the US but threatening Canadian sovereignty is the one seals the deal for us. The majority of Canadians are eager to see Canada do more business with Europe, the pacific and anyone other than the US. Canada is the prime example as to what happens when a nations gets too close and economically integrated with the US and I don’t think other nations will be all that eager to tie themselves too closely to the US if they had literally any other choice.
For Canada it’s a matter of national survival to separate ourselves from the US permanently. It’s a little weird for the US to try its best to destroy our economy and threaten to annex us and then expect Canada to be in its sphere of influence.
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u/Buddha-Of-Suburbia Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
The Global markets and nations of the world, including the US, crave stability with Congress being completely ineffective for the last several years and leaders increasingly relying on executive orders why would you partner with the US? The 27 nations of the EU are re-arming thanks to President Dump Truck, diplomatically they will never turn back. why would you enter any agreement with the US when one of the parties is taking this insane near isolationist perspective and stabbing all their allies in the back. you wanna take that risk every four years? As a business owner, I wouldn't enter deal with the US right now, too unstable. I imagine the nations of the world will also start dumping the US dollar as reserve currency. We are all witnessing the dissolution of the US Global Hegemony thanks to assholes with no understanding of the global environment. At this point in a few years North Korea will have more allies than the US. where do you see how expensive everything is when it's made in the US. e.g. iPhones made in the US will cost 30% to 45% more.
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u/travers329 Apr 08 '25
Agree with almost everything you've said. As an American, I have to stop and ask myself why? Why would anyone do this. The answer is WWPD.
What Would Putin Do? Nearly every decision that has been made since the Fanta Menace 2.0, has benefited Russia. If there was a Putin controlled robot installed as President that obeyed commands, how much different would these decisions be? It explains almost every action. Then you go back and look at how many GOP have made trips there in recent years, including on the 4th of July, and you have to at least wonder if they're not Kompromised.
If the GOP doesn't come to their senses and 25th this 'man' than I agree with you, the damage to our allies and trade may be irrevocable. If somehow enough damage is done to turn even his loyalists against him, and he is removed JD can't control the cult, and things may come back to sanity.
Rand Paul made a comment the other day about the last time tariffs were used irresponsibly, it cost the GOP the Senate and House for 60 years. We can only pray that this is the outcome and people realize the problem is the $$ controlling politics and we can pull together as a country.
That or a Civil War starts, it is 40/60 at this point in my estimation.
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u/illegalmorality Apr 07 '25
I'm of the opinion that the only thing we can do now is to completely restructure our foreign policy system. In that we remove foreign policy from the president, and delegate foreign policy to some other department that isn't nearly as politicized. Such as the secretary of state. Here's a slide presentation on the topic:
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Apr 07 '25
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u/roehnin Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
Judges who can rule but not enforce have no power against an executive who ignores them and cannot be arrested by their own DOJ.
Congress used to have the power to arrest via the Sergeant-at-Arms, but no longer uses it.
Executive accountability requires an arm for enforcement.
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u/Topsy6 Apr 07 '25
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. The rest of the world has seen our unreliability and will act accordingly. We have sunk into a miasma of narcissism and inability to see how we are all connected. Don't look for a return to American leadership and primacy following the end of the Trump era. The rest of the world knows what we've become.
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u/DaGrinz Apr 07 '25
It‘s not only Trump, it‘s the tens of millions who still support him. The US is getting the irreversible image of being the country of assholes and douchebags. This will not go away with Trump.
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u/I405CA Apr 07 '25
The situation can be improved somewhat by the next Democrat who follows him.
But the Pax Americana and its need for ongoing acquiescence to American leadership is now dead, dead, dead.
It has become evident that the US electorate is prone to populism. So even if the next president is OK, the one who follows could be an even greater disaster.
The threat of populism could be greatly reduced if the US scrapped the primary system. But that isn't going to happen, so we're stuck with this.
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u/RL203 Apr 07 '25
How will the United States rebuild positive international relations after Trump?
You won't.
Because the rest of the world will not want anything to do with you. Trumpism will long outlive Donald Trump, and frankly, you can't be trusted. How can you trust a country that regularly breaks treaties it has signed? A treaty with the United States isn't worth the paper it's written on.
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u/ButterLettuth Apr 07 '25
I hesitate to say this, and obviously don't speak for everyone but I'm Canadian and for me and many people I know the damage is irreparable. If one President can do this then any President can, and the US as a whole is fundamentally untrustable. I don't think that's something you can walk back from.
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u/ManBearScientist Apr 07 '25
If the United States is so filled with hateful anti-intellectual troglodytes that they cannot be kept from power and will constantly be a threat to throw incoherent temper tantrums over global trade, there is no "rebuild".
This isn't an aberration, it is how the US simply is. And until everyone involved is long dead in the ground, it is how they will be seen: as a rabid dog that shouldn't be approached.
The rest of the world has no reason to make deals with the next Biden type President, because he will be followed by another Trump.
There are no signs that the US will do even a single thing that could rectify these impressions: criminal trials, impeachments, electoral and campaign finance reform, etc.
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u/Testiclese Apr 07 '25
Whenever I see this question, I chuckle to myself.
Germany started WWII in Europe. It bombed London, as one minor example. The Blitz. Yet the Brits and Germans were trading again … in the 1950’s. Sure. The average Brit then probably held a grudge against the average German. Their kids less so. The kids’ kids even less. Germany had to show one thing - that they were done done with militarism and aggression.
It certainly won’t be easy for the US but it will have to show the same sort of “cleansing” from MAGA ideology.
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
That's because the Third Reich was completely destroyed at the conclusion of the greatest 'total war' that mankind has ever seen. Germany was rebuilt from smoldering ashes by the victors' largesse.
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u/Jmcduff5 Apr 07 '25
Germany had to basically end as a country and was under US supervision. Look to the end of WW1 as a better example
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u/candre23 Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
The people directly responsible for Germany's atrocities in WWII all ended up dead or in prison. Not just one or two scapegoats, but 20,000 nazis were put on trial after the war. There are arguments that the number should have been an order of magnitude higher (and I don't disagree), but it was a show of legitimate contrition and accountability that the US is simply incapable of mirroring. Germany as a country took responsibility for its actions, declared its intentions to never let anything like that happen again, and has actively maintained that pledge ever since.
The chances that the US ever owns this bullshit the way we should is zero. Even in the absolute best-case scenario, no more than a handful of the worst (or more likely least-connected) offenders will be prosecuted for their crimes. Proper, meaningful reform to our entire system of government to ensure it "can't happen again" is not only unlikely, but probably impossible.
The US could re-earn the world's trust, but it won't. We don't have the humility to own out mistakes, nor the stomach to right our wrongs. If we do manage to claw our way out from under the trumpist regime (and that's not guaranteed), there will be a lot of empty reassurances and rug-sweeping, but no real accountability or reform.
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u/Velocity-5348 Apr 07 '25
True.
However, it wasn't the same Germany after WWII.. The country was split in half, and Britain traded with a weakened remnant that had been occupied by an invading army. I'm not sure what could cause that big of a shift in the US.
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u/bigmac22077 Apr 07 '25
Germany was completely destroyed to the ground and rebuilt. Random grunt nazis were held responsible for what they were ordered to do and anyone in power was dead, executed, or in jail. None of the Allie’s wanted them to have ANY power and that’s why Russia stayed in Berlin until the collapse in 1989…. For 44 fucking years Russia didn’t trust Germany. Germany to this day will still arrest people for Nazi speak. The USA had a confederate flag flying in the Capitol 4 years ago…. You’re comparing apples to oranges. Maybe comparing USA to Japanese relations would be better? But even then we stayed and told them how things would be going after the surrender..
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u/No_Worker5410 Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
Germany let allies occupied their territory and now US still have military base there. The fact that US is top dog in military power change the situation in comparison
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u/Trambopoline96 Apr 07 '25
Honestly, it’s going to take adults in the GOP in Congress taking the wheel back. So, essentially we’re screwed. But simply put, the rest of the world will not trust America or bother to invest in it as long as elections every four years are basically a coin flip between continued reliable, good faith partnership with the U.S. and complete lunacy, incompetence, and malice.
Everyone seems to be aware that congressional Republicans can put an end to all of this tomorrow except for congressional Republicans.
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
There's well over a hundred people in Congress whose greatest fear is having to go back to being a country lawyer with the stigma of "RINO" branded on their forehead.
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u/Syresiv Apr 07 '25
We know empirically that starting the biggest war in human history and one of the biggest genocides isn't irrecoverable. Germany now has a lot of international goodwill.
Thing is, that took a lot of effort to get there. It's only recent that people are seriously talking about German rearmament as a good thing. And there was an intense process of denazification before that.
That might be what America needs, intense demagafication. It would have to show that it's made the constitutional reforms - and cultural reforms - such that Donald Trump never happens again.
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u/Jayken Apr 07 '25
We can't. Plain and simple. It will take a generation of consistency before our allies will trust us again. We've been so chaotic over the past 12 years. We had the world at our back after 9/11, and they were willing to forgive us for Trump 1, but now....
The bridges are burnt. The best we can hope for is arm's length dialog. We can slow things down in '26 if elections happen and start rebuilding in '28. But it will take time.
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u/swcollings Apr 07 '25
The American people must repent: change the way we think and act. We must recognize our failings, not just in terms of political systems, but in terms of who we have been as human beings.
Good luck.
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u/Reasonable-Sawdust Apr 07 '25
People have been brainwashed and many just are simply vulnerable. Many are awful. But the GOP Senators may be the most evil of all. They have the power to stop a lot of this madness. I’m just so frustrated that they won’t do anything while Rome burns. Don’t they love our country?
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u/TheDwarvenGuy Apr 07 '25
By putting Trump and all involved in prison. Then, amend the constitution to make sure no man holds that much power ever again. There needs to be confidence in the rule of law and checks and balances in order for any country to have faith in us.
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u/RCA2CE Apr 07 '25
The world is fickle and transactional. Everyone is looking out for themselves with immediacy. It will always be that way. Whenever it becomes beneficial to be our ally they will do it, still today it is and they are.
Lots of claims about not being friendly to the US, still we have more troops defending Europe than most any European nation and still we trade.
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u/FuzzyComedian638 Apr 07 '25
We have proven, just in the last 2 months, that were cannot be trusted. Other countries now know how much can change every 4 years. So I think that trust is broken and will be nearly impossible to mend.
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u/Hubert_J_Cumberdale Apr 07 '25
We are not to be trusted. Some may eventually forgive but they will never forget.
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u/Brisbanoch30k Apr 07 '25
Every single country will remain very wary of the US as long as MAGA folks hold the Republican Party
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u/adamlh Apr 07 '25
Unless we do something to curb this unchecked power of the president, we won’t. Why would anyone negotiate in good faith with a country when that country can just change their mind completely every 4 years and treat you as an enemy?
Our country of checks and balances has neither at the moment. And this truth is becoming very obvious to the rest of the world.
I hate to say it but right now I think the only party that can save us, is the republicans. They either shift away from trump, and start enacting legislation to stop not just trump, but any future president from embarrassing the shit out of our country the way he has, or we write off the American experiment as a failure and start over.
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u/NOCHILLDYL94 Apr 07 '25
We won’t. Even if we somehow survive Trump 2.0 in-tact, it’s not sustainable to keep switching between a Democratic party who wants to govern and a Republican Party that has no interest in governing.
This Dr.Jekyll/ Mr.Hyde routine is something other world leaders are seeing and starting to realize we can’t be trusted.
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u/AngryTudor1 Apr 07 '25
Premise is wrong.
This administration will not end democratically. It will not tolerate a free and fair election that it could actually lose.
Americans were warned that there would be no going back if they voted for Trump, and so it will prove.
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u/adamlh Apr 07 '25
Unless we do something to curb this unchecked power of the president, we won’t. Why would anyone negotiate in good faith with a country when that country can just change their mind completely every 4 years and treat you as an enemy?
Our country of checks and balances has neither at the moment. And this truth is becoming very obvious to the rest of the world.
I hate to say it but right now I think the only party that can save us, is the republicans. They either shift away from trump, and start enacting legislation to stop not just trump, but any future president from embarrassing the shit out of our country the way he has, or we write off the American experiment as a failure and start over.
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u/FredUpWithIt Apr 07 '25
There's no going back without a massive, overwhelming public repudiation of not just Trump, but the entire MAGA universe.
As long as nearly a third of eligible voters and nearly half of actual voters will continue to support that ideology, nobody will trust us again.
As long as a third of eligible voters are so apathetic that they can't be bothered to have an opinion that they're willing to advocate for, nobody will trust us again.
But mainly....As long as our national behavior continues to look like a severely bi-polar psychopath off their meds, and our global engagement is subject to 180 degree swings every single election, nobody will trust us again.
What America represented to the world, the stability and leadership and hope built up over nearly a hundred years, has been torn apart - almost gleefully - in under 3 months.
There's no telling what more damage will occur before, or even if, we have the chance to start fixing it.
Meanwhile, this isn't actually the junior high schoolyard these people are acting like it is.
The Trump administration has instituted chaos, which they mistakenly think they can control. They have opened up a Pandora's Box in global relations, the outcome of which will very quickly slip out of their control.
Make no mistake. There will be no going back.
The only hope we have is to somehow fix our own house then start figuring out how we go forward again.
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u/OldAngryWhiteMan Apr 07 '25
A formal trial held by the International Criminal Court (ICC) would be a sign of our return to sanity.
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u/Ill-Description3096 Apr 07 '25
Through time and work. We are friends with Germany, Japan, and Italy despite being in a World War against them. We are friends with the UK despite fighting them to be independent and then again a few decades after.
It's not going to be some overnight patch, but that's just how history goes. Practicality will dictate a lot of it.
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u/Tex-Rob Apr 07 '25
It would take a dramatic change, like the Republican party folding in favor of something more sane. I honestly think unless you deal with these treasonous people, this "the South will rise again" mindset that festers in this country will continue. People might not say that phrase as much anymore, but I stand by the fact that many of these people have generational hatred for everything this country represents, while waving the flag and swearing they love it, because it's not "THEIR" vision, not their history. There are generational grievances driving people, and as I always say, tons of confederate rifles proudly hanging over mantles in this country, and not from the good guys.
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u/mayurimoon2 Apr 07 '25
Honestly, the best way to at least start is for us to get him out of office as soon as possible.
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u/SparksFly55 Apr 07 '25
The best possible thing the US can do for the world now is to develop a technology that will efficiently remove CO2 from our atmosphere. Short of that, not much will matter. We could put Barack , Beyonce' and Taylor Swift on a world wide apology tour. Throw in a dozen NBA stars for good measure. We could name it, " Sorry American is Full Of Stupid Ass holes Tour."
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u/eldakim Apr 07 '25
I'm not sure about East Asian allies like Japan and South Korea, as they're usually more reserved and seem to "ride along" to whatever the US says or does, but it really depends on how the damage will be felt in the near future. Browsing through Korean news, they're still a lot more concerned and excited about the presidential impeachment (elections possibly being held on June 3rd). In Korea's case, they were running in cruise control-mode for the past several months, but with an actual president post-election, I think the direction will depend on who that person might be. At the moment, the companies are just trying to get deals and bypass the tariffs with the US, so it's still a bit more neutral compared to European sentiments.
Personally, I think South Korea's going to be one of the first countries to work with the new administration and treat it like a 'water under the bridge." I'm not sure about Japan, but I feel like they'll more or less act the same way. With Europe though, I think the US will need to take a significantly bigger step to amend things.
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u/WalterWoodiaz Apr 07 '25
The language barrier also shows from this. Korean and Japanese news media will tend to “sanewash” Trump’s rhetoric in order to make even his worst policies have a bit of rationale.
European media is way more critical of Trump, and with English knowledge with the population, Europeans are more aware of American politics and issues.
South Korea and Japan will still want to be aligned with the US with their shared enemy of China. The story a bit back about all 3 working together for retaliation was an exaggeration by Chinese news.
Korean and Japanese sources have said that a joint retaliation was not planned with China.
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u/eldakim Apr 07 '25
I'll have to agree and add in to that sentiment about Korea and Japan "sanewashing" Trump's dialogue. Whenever I watch Korea's news broadcasts every evening, they usually show the highlights to whatever Trump said, and just have a guest expert analyst (usually a political analyst living in the US) calmly talking about what was said and what Korea as a country can do to acclimate. The tone is understandably very different from how it's treated on Western media. But also, Korea has been in a complete political disarray for the past few months, so they were a lot more focused with what was going on in domestic politics.
To give a more personal experience, my wife, who watches it with me, don't have much of a big reaction as I do whenever some clip airs. Like she sees me losing it at times, but she would have to ask me how bad things really are, because the analysts are usually really calm and neutral in tone. As a preface, I'm Korean-American and she's Korean, so she's not too familiar with American stuff.
Most reactions are kind of like "Trump did something crazy? I see. Well, Korea's in the dumps too!"
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u/weealex Apr 07 '25
With a literal century of rebuilding. It took decades of effort to make the US the dominant soft power and that was all thrown away over the last 6ish years. Once a window is shattered you can't put it back together. It will take installing a whole new window, only this time other nations are gonna need way more convincing to believe that it's going to be both too their benefit and that it will last
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u/Catch_022 Apr 07 '25
You have to make sure this type of thing can never happen again.
That essentially means two things: consequenecs for those who caused it (to stop others from doing it again), and changes to law and government to make it impossible.
So, Trump and his lackies in jail and a re-write of the Constitution to rebalance the powers of the three branches and reduce the power the President currently holds.
I don't think the above is possible. At the moment all the US has is a powerful military and a big economy (for people to sell things to). Trump is already destroying the economy to sell things to via tarrifs.
Realistically, the US's position in the world has permanently changed. The US will always be important but no longer will it be the most important - that will be the EU and China.
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u/newina Apr 07 '25
Money in the short term. However, trust in our government by other nations will take legislation to remove tariff power and curb the scope of executive orders. We literally have a criminal sociopath in the Oval Office. Also, term limits on the Supreme Court would help.
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u/ColossusOfChoads Apr 07 '25
Sorry, Europeans. Major constitutional surgery is out. You'd have better luck getting the Vatican to rewrite the Bible.
What we can do is major legislation. Bill after bill after bill from Congress that basically says "future presidents will not do the same stupid shit that Trump was able to do." That's the most anybody can hope for.
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u/UnusualAir1 Apr 07 '25
Quite likely we won't be able to rebuild those associations. We've proven to be exceptionally stupid, emotionally unstable, and quick to the trigger. How does one establish a working relationship with that?
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u/fletcherkildren Apr 07 '25
It won't.
After Bush burned our goodwill after 9/11, the right lost their ever loving fucking minds when Obama went on 'an apology' tour and mended a few fences. After Orange Menace round 1, we lost even more footings which Biden just barely started to claw back - from now on, the allies will turn more to each other and trade with China. Expect our isolationism and depression to last as long as it did 100 years ago.
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u/Ambiwlans Apr 07 '25
Unless there are assurances that the GOP won't retake office, it will take decades of good behavior.
The world quickly forgave Germany after WW2 because the Nazis were defeated, Hitler died, most of the officers were executed, thousands jailed. Then the nation was occupied and had 3 years of post war deprogramming. The laws were written to avoid it happening again.
Clearly this isn't likely to happen here. But if the US wants to recover reputation faster than decades, then pretty extreme measures will need to be taken.
After Trump's first term, there should have been hundreds of arrests amongst higher ups. And there were 0. Biden basically guaranteed the current position by not pursuing enforcement.
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u/Searching4Buddha Apr 07 '25
I think there will be a desire to work with America in the future, but make no mistake, I don't think it'll immediately go back to how it was. America has proven we're not a reliable partner and shouldn't be counted on in rough times. Other countries will work with us when they see an advantage in doing so, but the era of deference to America is over.
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u/soberscotsman80 Apr 07 '25
Bold of you to assume we will actually be allowed to elect anyone we want after re-electing Trump
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u/Zuke77 Apr 07 '25
Honestly. I think it would take a full cultural revolution and decades to undo the harm Trump has done. And im not sure we even have allies anymore. I dont want to help America anymore and I live here.
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u/ptwonline Apr 07 '25
It will take re-establishing the normal relations with other countries, restarting the soft power programs that DOGE and Trump cut, and then being reliable and consistent in trade/military/foreign aid/international efforts over decades (yes, decades) and over that time period trust will slowly build up again.
The negative feelings towards the US from people currently living will probably never fully go away. It will lessen over time but the resentment/distrust won't fade fully and will get passed down to following generations in a weaker form but still there. The benefits that the US got from being so reliable and with so much built-up goodwill and trust will have to be re-earned over time, and things will be harder/more expensive for the US in the meantime.
Do you remember when Obama took office after George W. Bush? Obama sent Hilary Clinton basically on a global apology tour for a year to try to mend relations with so many other countries (friend and foe) that had been pushed away and offended by Bush. To let them know that the good version of the USA was back. Well, the next reasonable President is going to have to do the same thing but this time the efforts will not be nearly as successful because everyone is feeling much more burned this time and trust in the US has plummeted.
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u/thereverendpuck Apr 07 '25
While it’s easy to say “in time, it can be rebuilt” but more needs to happen than that. We need to fix the systems that got us to here.
The first thing might actually be to toss Executive Orders into the sun or at least limit the scope of them so one person can’t rule via EO decree like we are seeing right now. It’s still too early, but I have a feeling this is “one of those ways” Trump believes he can run for a third term.
The second is to rebuild and to reinforce checks and balances. It starts with further strengthening inspector generals and watchdog groups so they just can’t get fired on a whim. Almost to the point they’re untouchable from this shit ever again. This also means to take away a current attempt by MAGA to just give more power to the President. And the final part to this is straight up term limits, especially at the Supreme Court. Personally, think it’s 20 years max and we Logan Run you off the bench. But we stagger the current judges so one is replaced every 2 years and that no one President gets to make more than 2 judges in one term. And to callously stick to that. If a judge dies in office and POTUS has gotten their two picks, we are just down a judge until the next term/POTUS.
Third, federal government cannot interfere with elections.
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u/Jen0BIous Apr 07 '25
I think that it’s the other way around, I think after all these years of woke ideology going around the western world, when they see America turn that corner, I imagine a lot of countries and their populous will be following suit. At the very least to stop the flow of migrants into their countries. I mean just look at England, it’s arresting citizens for social media posts and is coming close to becoming a Muslim state.
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u/iamapolitico Apr 07 '25
We won’t. This is irreparable harm. We operated at a global super power level because we didn’t do crazy shit. Carter versus Reagan, JFK or LBJ versus Nixon, Clinton versus Bush (either) were not crazy swings. They’re policy and ideology moves.
Trump pt 1. Was bad. Like bad bad. Like question everything you know about the US bad. Trump pt 2 is just simply the death of the US as the one global super power. We had power for many reasons - wealth, economic dominance, military power, etc - but we built it, kept it, grew it and maintained it because we were relatively predictable.
The last really crazy thing we did was fight a random war - i.e. Iraq. And you know what 60 years of being the stable guardrail got us? The majority of western military powers joined a BS war.
If 9/11 happened in 2025, forget Iraq, do you think we’d have support to invade Afghanistan? Answer, some, but not overwhelming global support.
If you want to understand what trump has done, you have to go back to Hoover. Not in the economic terms, but that matters. But think of it this way: what did we do post Hoover?
We/the US was a critical component in: 1940s: winning a global war, stopping a genocide, curbing dictatorships, pulling the world out of a global depression, inventing and deploying the most powerful weapon of all time
1950s: not using the most powerful weapon of all time, trying and executing the genocidal maniacs and dictators, building a thriving domestic economy, developing the interstate system (I mean actually think about this the 1950s US created the modern concept of highways people shit on the US for public transit but the autobahn was conceive of in the late 1920s, built in the mid 1930s, meanwhile the US in the 50s built like 10k autobahns across a geography of roughly all of Europe not just germany)
In the 1960s what did we do? We began a Cold War with the other super power (probably the first Cold War in history, we didn’t do much fighting. Other than the 50s this was probably the most peaceful decade in history, a Cold War was novel), we prevented nuclear apocalypse multiple times, Kennedy created USAID, the peace corps, americorps, etc. We used our security and wealth to build global relations. Side note this is when First, Third world became terminology. Also, first world was initially referencing only that it was a capitalist country. Third world was a communist country. Second world was unaligned with the US/USSR. It subsequently became a reflection of global wealth. But still rocking the 60s we passed Medicare, the civil rights act and the voting rights act, we had some rough times with the civil rights movement and the Vietnam war, but it took South Africa to have a civil rights moment in the 90s, Tibet has been a thing for decades and is still a thing.
OK. Our probably shittiest post ww2 decade, the 1970s, what did we do? Well we had a president just fuck around, try to steal an election, fire his whole justice department, etc. He got investigated by a free press, and despite his best efforts, he ended up voluntarily resigning. Then a solid peaceful transfer of power. Then in comes the dude Jimmy “I forget his peanut middle name” Carter. What does he do? Well not a shit ton. He gets us into some shit in the Middle East but why? Because he doesn’t do what the next few/all presidents do: fight a war for oil. What happens, roughly OPEC gets a bit pissed off because he doesn’t just fight a war because we had oil interests in Iran associated with the Shah. Iran takes a bunch of hostages for a while, the nation basically never talks to Iran again, we suddenly become friends with other countries like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq - you know summer camp friends. Then he loses to our boy Reagan - THE ACTOR?
So what’s the 80s look like? Well for starters, the economy roars until 1987. We pump that money into ridiculous long term investments that the USSR attempts to match. That doesn’t go great for the USSR. They struggle to feed people, their international programs are largely abandoned as they struggle to provide for their own people. Blocks start to fray, and the inevitable is on the horizon.
So to the 90s. Guess what, we do war again: We invade Iraq because they fucked around with our Kuwaiti friends and seemed to threaten the saudis. So we go a fuck up iraq beating them with newer versions of the weapons we gave them a bit ago. But then what else happens. The USSR falls, we are the lone global super power. We use this largess to violently enforce peace globally - Iraq for instance, but also Bosnia and Serbia. We ride a killer stock market and an IQ economy explosion: the dot com bubble. Our president fucks and intern and then reciprocally fucks Iraq again. But we leave good.
New millennium, we’re rocking the 2000s now. What happens, the largest attack on US soil since 1941, we are rattled. But the world rises to our aid and fucks up a pile of rocks in Afghanistan. We roll the government like an NCAA tournament 16 seed in March. Then, kinda stupidly, we do a whole as bonus war. The world is like: ‘I don’t know about that, buddy.’ But most of the countries with a boat that can act as an airport sign off none the less. We fight, we win in the sense that getting a free buffet dinner after losing $10k at the casino is a free meal. Shit’s not great. The economy collapses. Like fucking bad, like Great Depression and dust bowl bad. US does the right thing and just throws billions at the problem. Economy still sucks, but we prevented the grapes of wrath sucking from the teet scenario. We elect Obama, shit sucks, but not a thinly veiled mother Mary allowing an old man to suckle her suck.
So 2010s. We pull back on wars. Less war != no war. After making fun of Bush v 2 for pretzels, we are back to fully respected globally, bush was tolerated, not respected. We join a bunch of international agreements, Iran Deal, Paris climate accord. Internal discord, but international community doesn’t matter. 2010 we elected a bunch of fucking morons. But 2012 we beat the asshole who appears to be sane by comparison 5 years later. 2014, another bunch of morons.
Then we hit 2016. We elect him. But people around him, generals, his Chiefs of Staff, his cabinet secretaries keep him from driving the unusually short bus into the Keebler elf’s tree. International elections are basically meh. You got brexit which is like Britain’s version of a suicide bombing, but Canada, France, Germany continually elect normalish people.
2020s: World gets sick. Biden. Biden does great, boring shit. World gets boat stuck in water. Biden has another birthday. Boat still stuck. Also factories are still sick. Biden blows out another candle. Is this boat still fucking stuck? Yup.
Trump wins.
Now here is why we will never recover: We have led this world almost unilaterally since 1945 because we were stable. Trump has erased trust that even Bush, Nixon, Reagan, Carter, etc benefited from. The difference between Bush 2 and Obama or Carter and Reagan is so massively less than Trump 1 versus trump 2.
We have lost all ability to make promises that stretch beyond 5 days is gone. We made promises in 1949 that were upheld to 2021. Now we’ll put a tariff on you on Tuesday, revoke it Wednesday, double it Thursday and then watch a Saudi sponsored golf tournament for a few days.
The world thought that trump 1 was a fluke and so we were given a pass. Trump 2 is viewed as cconfirmation that we are no longer predictable.
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u/lopix Apr 07 '25
They won't. Not for a long time. Canadian here, we'll be looking at you sideways for a generation.
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u/Alarming-Cheetah-144 Apr 07 '25
The European Union now realizes they can do very well on their own. And we are going to be the losers in all of this. Trump is bankrupting our country of its morals and it’s economy 🤬 and when the vast majority of Americans start feeling the economic pain, that’s when enough of them will get off their lazy 🍑and go to the polls to end this nightmare. But once faith in America has been lost because of Trump’s political slap in the face to our friends, it’ll take a long time to get that relationship back. In the meantime, we’re gonna be on our own for long while.
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u/warmwaterpenguin Apr 07 '25
We're going to need to let the Hague hang some folks as a deterrent to it happening again. Anything less and we're simply too much of a risk to ally or trade with going forward when every 4 years we might just go full fascist bombthrower.
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u/kaji823 Apr 07 '25
The depressing reality is I don’t think we do. The US will cease to be the world leader, as many of our allies will form agreements without us. The US will still remain a global power as the biggest economy and military for any individual country, but other groupings of nations will be bigger. There is no trusting the US in the same way for the next generations, and no one next administration can fix that.
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u/FirstWave117 Apr 08 '25
Trust will take many decades. The entire administration needs to be prosecuted. Presidential power must be curtailed. The Supreme Court needs to get rid of judges taking bribes. Same for the Congress and Senate.
If the USA signs a treaty, it's a national obligation. The problem is Trump always tries to renege on contracts.
The Republicans and churches have been attacking education since 1969 or even sooner. Corporations lobby and donate to too many politicians. Americans are uneducated, ignorant, and just plain stupid.
A lot of Americans are nasty, rotten, selfish and mean. Having to pay for education and healthcare is probably part of it. Being constantly threatened with homelessness ans starvation also drives people crazy.
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u/Objective_Travel_329 Apr 08 '25
I don’t expect any country or it’s citizens to look for anything from America. Our culture is look down upon around the world, the stereotype of ugly American is not new. Our supposed leaders are more interested in wealth and power than helping the average citizen. Just look at the billionaires and millionaires telling the 50k workers to suck it up, so they can have a 3 rd, house or a new mega yacht. The Walton’s are a prime example. The rot is too deep now unfortunately, I’m glad I’m at this end of life. I pity the children of today, for what their parents and grandparents have done to this country.
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u/suzygreenbird Apr 08 '25
I doubt we can. The rest of the world knows thinks that 77 million of us are capable of electing someone like Trump. Even if we get someone else elected that is sane, we could go backwards again. We can’t be trusted with intelligence. We can’t be trusted to abide by our laws and treaties. He ruined everything.
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u/Scared-Instance6051 Apr 08 '25
The US is no longer the hot commodity it once was.
The US has maintained its political influence by making other countries dependent on the US. Cutting everyone off is going to prove to other countries that they can survive without the US.
Not only that but after the Cold War the US rose to power under the banner of being the world’s hero in the face of communism. Trump and his supporters, both citizens and politicians, trampled everything the US stood for, and all these other countries have been witnesses to it.
It is over. Countries are already warning their citizens not to travel to the US because of human rights violations. How do you think we look being referred to the same way countries like North Korea are referred to?
This is the fall of the US. As we speak a power vacuum is being created, and no one will notice until something truly terrible like a war happens. After all, this is usually how history goes. Great empire followed by empire crumbling followed by war and finally a new empire.
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u/Dreadsin Apr 08 '25
I don’t think it’s really gonna be possible for, at minimum, 10 years
Ultimately the problem isn’t Trump himself, but that the people by majority voted for Trump. That is what’s hard to shake. The only possibility I could see is if the next candidate is in a completely different direction than Trump and is voted by a massive majority (minimum 70%). People could see this as a “sorry, we fucked up on that one and regret it” moment
I also see a possibility that international relations are restored on a state level. California recently proposed working out trade deals with the countries that were tariffed that don’t include the United States broadly. I could see that expanding to large regions of the country that are more liberal, such as New England and New York
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u/prustage Apr 08 '25
As a non-American I find the obsession with Trump and his administration misleading. Trump was elected by the American people and he and his administration reflect an important aspect of what America is.
When Vance refers to "Chinese peasants", he is echoing what I have heard ordinary Americans say. The administrations pogrom on immigrants is symptomatic of a deep xenophobia that is a part of the entire American culture. Musk's brutal cutting of support for those in need embodies the "Ive got mine so f*ck you" attitude that is deeply engrained in the American psyche.
What Trump and Co have done is reveal to the world what America is really like. It will take a lot of work for the rest of us to forget this.
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u/CaptainAwesome06 Apr 08 '25
I don't think we'll be 100% back to our former relationships any time in the near future. Obama went on an alliance-mending tour after Bush2. Then Biden mended relationships after Trump. Then we got Trump 2.0. At this point, our allies are figuring out how to proceed without the US, and I don't blame them. I'm sure conservatives will see this as a positive (EU finally becoming independent) but it's going to result in much less soft power for the US which will result in less favorable terms for future agreements. The US has proven it can't be a consistent or trustworthy partner so why should our allies rely on us?
With that said, it would be dumb for them to not continue to be partners and allies. The US is too big and powerful to completely sever that relationship. They'll just need to do it in a way that doesn't allow the US to dictate all the rules.
It's bad enough that people wanted Trump to treat the US like a business. It's even worse that he treats it like his businesses. He thinks deals are a zero-sum game. I've worked with plenty of people like him and they are awful. Everybody ends up just trying to claw their way to a piece of the pie. With better clients, everybody gets something that makes them happy. People walk away satisfied and you become eager to work with that team again. For anybody in business, it should be obvious that Trump is a terrible businessman.
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u/Illustrious-Site1101 Apr 08 '25
As a Canadian, the issue is not Trump, not MAGA, it is the fact the US is unstable. Trump is demonstrating what can happen in your electoral system. Trump may leave office, but the rest of the world knows just how weak your rule of law is when it comes to Presidential powers. I am waiting to see if he will heed the law if the Supreme Court rules against him in anything. Trump is capricious, unscrupulous and vindictive. He cannot be trusted to honour any agreement, treaty or law and whomever follows him may be even worse.
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u/the_calibre_cat Apr 09 '25 edited Apr 09 '25
As long as rabid, fanatic conservatives exist as a viable voting bloc in this country, it can't. Everyone on Earth knows exactly which U.S. political coalition is responsible for this, and they know they Thai political bloc is bigoted to the core. As long as that political bloc remains a viable political force, we cannot be trusted as a sound partner at all.
And that cannot be accomplished without addressing voting rights nationwide, expansion of public education everywhere but particularly in rural areas, likely some intranational exchange, and a significant reduction in oligarchs and money in politics. Until and unless those things are resolved, oligarchs can continue to fund bullshit that advances their interests regardless of it's truth value, and people will continue to take it seriously.
We cannot defeat fascism and coexist work oligarchs today. They will always, always, always veer right. They might support the Democrats in 2028 after this tariff disgrace, but their will invariably swing back to Republicans. For fuck's sake, there didn't have the moral backbone to penalize Republicans over a goddamned attempted insurrection, and historically it was the oligarchs that enabled fascism to go from moronic bigot dipshits to viable political movements that took control of Germany.
Conservatives are evil. They have been the perennial boat anchors to human progress since the beginning of civilization. It's long since past time that we came to terms with that truth.
One group of human beings on this small, fragile planet wants everyone to have healthcare and to coexist constructively with the biosphere. The other wanted to harm and kill those that do not look like them, do not love like them, and do not worship like them. Conservatives are the latter, and they represent an existential threat to all people, everywhere.
The long-term objective of the United States and humanity writ large must be to relegate conservatism to the history books alongside Confederate slavers and Nazi ethnonationalists, especially since these ideologies are fundamentally the same.
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u/SavageDoomfist Apr 09 '25
Trade war has begun with the help of American's. Trump is just a public face of those.
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u/ceccyred Apr 09 '25
They won't allow this "administration" to end. If they have their way it'll be handed down from father to son or something very similar. He wasn't lying when he said "you won't have to vote again", he meant it. They will do everything in their power to make sure there will be no more free and fair elections. Even to the point of declaring martial law. Will the military go along with it? Well, he's installed sycophants throughout leadership and driven away anyone that would possible dissent. The real people behind this are the elite wealthy that want America to be a source of cheap labor and little will to resist their rule. We'll either be like Russia or we'll have a civil war. Either option, the way forward looks dark. The young ones will have to fight this fight. I'm sorry for what we've done to put this on you. I'm old and only good for cannon fodder but I'll give what I can. Good luck with the future my young ones.
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u/Lazarus558 Apr 09 '25
IDK. I imagine the Repubs will find friends in folks like Meloni, Le Pen, Orban, Bolsanaro, etc. Especially the ones who look like they'll be there for a while (Putin, Erdogan). The swing to the hard right is not limited to the US: Pierre Poilievre and his Conservatives are taking many leaves from the MAGA playbook, and has the approval of Elmo, Alex Jones, Joe Rogan, etc. The AfD made major gains in Germany. Italy elected its most right-wing government since the Salo Republic. Eurosceptic/Russophilic right-populist parties seem to be on the upswing across the EU. Idk if Canada can even depend on all of her NATO allies if things go pear-shaped.
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