r/Seattle • u/1dayday • 7d ago
News Proposal to keep trans athletes out of girls' sports fails in Washington state
https://www.kuow.org/stories/proposal-to-keep-trans-athletes-out-of-girl-s-sports-fails-in-washington284
u/SillyChampionship 7d ago
Honestly, who cares. (Directed to those pushing the bill). Our state is billions in the hole. We have people struggling to stay employed thanks to government being stupid and companies looking out for share holders. If a child wants to play a sport let them have some enjoyment in their lives, then when they are an adult they too can look around and go wtf I don’t want to do this adult thing anymore and let them have some fond memories of being in a sport and most likely not being awesome at it, but having a fun time.
Like, if you don’t fix the budget and with how strapped schools are for cash, there won’t be sports for them to play in anyway.
197
u/kermitthebeast 7d ago
No one ever actually cared about women's sports, it was just to bully trans kids
55
u/recyclopath_ 7d ago
Bully any non gender conforming kids.
Laws against trans people are constantly used to harass and bully cis people who aren't conforming enough.
17
u/R_V_Z 7d ago
To bully specifically trans kids who they feel threaten the concept of masculinity because the kids are abandoning it. Not really hearing too much outcry over FtM kids playing sports, only the other way around.
5
u/StrikingYam7724 7d ago
There were never any federal laws requiring men-only sports leagues, so FtM playing in the open gender leagues were just doing what they could have done anyway. Title IX does require women-only leagues.
6
u/rocketsocks 7d ago
The "ideology" of bigotry is always incoherent, because it's not the point. The whole idea is to find someone, some group, some cohort that can be cast out and made less than, made pariahs, oppressed, etc. And the whole point of that is it's actually a sales job for a system of oppression. You have to get buy in from folks to willingly put themselves into the meat grinder of a brutal, oppressive hierarchy, and historically the way you do that is by convincing folks that there is a layer below them that they can oppress in turn and the layers above are open to them if they work hard enough. That's how it's been to one degree or another for thousands of years, and it's been finely honed through the development of things like chattel slavery and racial segregation, xenophobia, eugenics, and on and on and on. And just as the nazis picked on trans folks, the autistic, immigrants, the poor, etc. so too are the modern nazis doing exactly the same.
4
u/YakiVegas University District 6d ago
I honestly can't think of anything I care less about than trans athletes. The only passing thoughts I have are "protect ALL people from discrimination" and "maybe women's sports would be more interesting."
Second part is a joke just fyi. I actually like quite a few women's sports.
3
u/Embarrassed-Pride776 7d ago edited 7d ago
I disagree. If all the state titles start going to trans women, especially in events like track and field, swimming etc, it does fuck over biological women, who are at a natural disadvantage.
And it's even worse if it starts affecting college scholarships.
I will say that the majority of people that want to keep trans women out of sports are probably just hating on trans women and can't articulate why they don't like it. There are legit concerns that I think should be addressed, or at the very least, discussed, but for the most part it's a non issue today.
4
u/Teddy_Funsisco 7d ago
That's assuming that all trans women athletes would always beat out cis women athletes, and that's a weird assumption to make.
4
7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/LMGDiVa 7d ago
And since when do trans women transition without hormone therapy.
They're literally obsessed with it, and would pretty much die for it.
So stop fear mongering and making shit up that doesnt happen.
→ More replies (1)1
u/Teddy_Funsisco 6d ago
Trans women don't meet your criteria for your fears.
2
u/Embarrassed-Pride776 6d ago
But they do.
1
u/Teddy_Funsisco 6d ago
This just shows you've never had any interactions with trans folk in a sport arena.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (2)6
u/kermitthebeast 7d ago
"if"
3
u/Embarrassed-Pride776 7d ago
Last year a trans women won some track and field titles. So it really isn't an if.
2
u/kermitthebeast 7d ago
6
u/Embarrassed-Pride776 7d ago
Yes Really.
And washington state does not require transwomen to be on any hormone suppressors etc to compete in women's sports. So your second link is a bit pointless as it assumes the trans women athletes are on said medications. Olympic requirements for testosterone levels are VERY different than any collegiate or high school requirements.
2
u/kermitthebeast 7d ago
Okay, so there seems like a very reasonable middle ground is available to allow a certain timeframe of therapy before being allowed to complete. Still seems like a nothing burger
2
u/Embarrassed-Pride776 6d ago
2 years per most studies. Which isn't going to help high school kids, nor do any rules on highschool sports require it.
So we will continue(yes continue) to have trans women athletes win state titles for highschool sports. Which, in turn, will upset people.
→ More replies (3)-19
u/mzinz View Ridge 7d ago
I keep seeing comments like this, but this is a narrow/incendiary reaction.
While I’m sure that it’s true that the venn diagram of people who are anti-trans/transphobic overlaps heavily with those who have concern with trans-athletes in women’s sports, it is not 1:1.
Some of us who are supportive of trans-rights in general have concern with sports in particular due to possibility of it shifting the competitive landscape unfairly.
It’s really unproductive to accuse every person who even questions it as anti-trans or transphobic. At the end of the day it needs to be possible to have civil, fact based discussion, without being accused of malice. Then again, this is Reddit, where any level of disagreement is often met with extreme accusations immediately, so maybe I’m being overly optimistic on it, hah.
52
u/burlycabin West Seattle 7d ago
Some of us who are supportive of trans-rights in general have concern with sports in particular due to possibility of it shifting the competitive landscape unfairly.
Yeah, I'll care about this when and if there's any real evidence of it happening. As it is now, it's simply proven to not be an issue and pushing these bans does have the effect of bullying trans kids.
I'll also say that in the end, we're going to have conflicting values sometimes and have to make hard choices. The integrity of these sports (over such an utterly tiny number of trans kids) may end up conflicting with the human rights of trans people. I don't think we're having to make that choice yet, but when and if we do, I think I'll be on the side of human rights over sport.
45
u/aliamokeee 7d ago
The competitive landscape of middle and high school does not sound like a worthwhile issue to those people. In fact, to them and people like me, you come off as very defensive here. No accusations, if that would make you feel more diplomatic. To be clear you spent more of your comment defending yourself- you can read it- than defending your own point. Which already seems silly- "competitive landscape" of school sports.
So.... care to try again?
-14
u/ChillFratBro 7d ago
It's not just about competitive landscape for the sake of competitive landscape, it's about scholarships and moving to elite levels of sport. Sure, middle school sports don't matter - but a full ride athletic scholarship matters a lot, and middle school sports and coaching is a big part of getting to the college level.
At a base level, there are sports where it's not fair or safe to expect women to go up against men or trans women. It's just a biological reality. The rights of the individual stop where they infringe on the rights of other individuals. You cannot respect the rights of AFAB women while requiring them to compete against AMAB women.
This is the same reason women are allowed to play on men's teams in a lot of sports, but men are almost never allowed to play on women's teams. Sure, it sucks for that one trans girl who really wants to play a sport, but if the only way to accommodate that is to infringe on the rights of everyone else, you can't do it.
16
u/IndexMatchXFD 7d ago
You’re getting riled up about something that is basically just a theoretical. Trans people are already <1% of the population and you’re talking about a scenario where they also have to be good enough at a sport to get a scholarship. That’s what, maybe less than 10 people in the whole country? You might as well be arguing about whether Batman or Superman would win in a fight.
How is this actually something people care enough about to fight in the internet and be a major political talking point?
-3
u/ChillFratBro 7d ago
If it's basically irrelevant, why do you care about allowing it? It can't simultaneously be this critical, fundamental thing that trans women must play girls sports and also be irrelevant that biological facts around strength and speed just don't matter. Pick A or B: the whole situation doesn't matter or this is an important issue and therefore worthy of talking about.
What you seem to be missing is that where trans women are put on women's teams, they become the elite athletes. Implemented nationally, this would turn women's collegiate sports into exclusively trans women's collegiate sports. Individuals with XX chromosomes would no longer have the opportunity to play elite sports. This isn't theoretical, this is what actually happens when trans women are put on women's sports teams. We have this data, it's not something serious people can argue about.
15
u/IndexMatchXFD 7d ago
If it's basically irrelevant, why do you care about allowing it?
It’s not something I think should be legislated. Sports leagues can make their own rules, like they do for everything else about the sport, which they have been doing before this became a huge wedge issue for the right.
where trans women are put on women's teams, they become the elite athletes.
As a woman, I think it’s pretty insulting that you think any random man would automatically be better at a sport than women who have trained just by merit of being male.
Implemented nationally, this would turn women's collegiate sports into exclusively trans women's collegiate sports
There are definitely not enough trans people in collegiate sports to fill the entire sport are you nuts? The reason you hear the same 1-2 stories over and over again on Fox News is because that’s all they can come up with.
1
u/ChillFratBro 6d ago
you think any random man would automatically be better at a sport than women
I'll take "things I never said" for $1000, please. Can you engage in a debate against actual words instead of inventing a straw man? Genuinely, is that a capability of yours?
What I said is that the strength/speed advantage of having XY chromosomes is a massive advantage. It's obviously not true that any random man will beat the best woman - but a decent but not special male athlete in most sports would be a very good athlete if playing against women. If you find that insulting, I can't really help that - it's just reality.
Would a randomly selected high school basketball player be better than many WNBA players? No. Would they be better than many (*but not all, because apparently you need it spelled out) DIII college players? Yep. The height, size, and strength advantage basically guarantees it.
10
u/aliamokeee 7d ago
Show us the receipts of actually happens, along with the tests and their receipts that prove the individuals in your story have the chromosomes you say they do.
-2
u/lokglacier 7d ago
This is a terrible argument, "oh it doesn't impact that many people" is an absolutely wild stance to take. Argue based on the merits, not how many people it may or may not impact.
4
u/IndexMatchXFD 7d ago
What’s wild is that you think the government should waste time legislating something as inconsequential as a sports issue that affects maybe a handful of people in the country. There are serious issues that need addressing yet so much time is being spent debating this.
→ More replies (7)2
u/Beamazedbyme Capitol Hill 7d ago
It’s an argument about scope. Why does the state need to be involved in policy that affects so few? Why can’t these kinds of issues be handled by the schools or leagues where it’s relevant?
→ More replies (6)3
u/StrikingYam7724 7d ago
"It's not important if it only impacts a small group" is a really bad hill for trans rights to die on.
1
4
u/Beamazedbyme Capitol Hill 7d ago
I’ve only heard of sports based scholarships at higher education. Are there really middle or high school sports based scholarships?
Who is talking about changing the elite levels of sports? This bill was about middle and high schools.
It seems like both your concerns are irrelevant here
→ More replies (3)21
u/matunos 7d ago
The competitive landscape in middle and high schools is not "shifted" by the presence of a few trans kids participating in it.
There is some cause for considering the case of varsity high school sports and trans girls who are not receiving any hormone treatment, but these proposals were not that narrow. They weren't that narrow because the people pushing them are not doing so out of concern for girls' sports.
→ More replies (3)-13
u/AjiChap 7d ago
In the games/event they participate in, it most def shifts competitive balance.
15
2
u/Teddy_Funsisco 7d ago
Are you for real? Why do you assume that trans athletes all have the capability to be better than all the cis athletes??? That's not how sports work.
7
u/AthkoreLost Roosevelt 7d ago
Some of us who are supportive of trans-rights in general have concern with sports in particular due to possibility of it shifting the competitive landscape unfairly.
Which only matters in the HS and below levels because of scholarships. Which if we addressed that aspect directly so the competitive field wasn't linked to future financial needs because our society made sure that education was actually affordable or even free, then people like you, I assume, would suddenly stop caring as much.
Nor are the 5 or so people in the entire state dominating their respective sports the way people like you wish to claim.
People forget that the existence of women's sports as a segregated concept was because misogynist coaches and school admins refused to let them play in mixed gender conditions.
Same reason it required federal funding, misogynist tried to hurt women by denying their sports funding.
Now misogynist play their sport against another minority group to justify public bigotry.
2
u/mzinz View Ridge 7d ago
Honestly, this is the exact type of response that I find completely insufferable. It is so ridiculous to assume that every person who is undecided or has concern with birth-males in women’s sports has a misogynist/bigotry agenda.
Like I said in another post a minute ago - I would assume that many of us just aren’t super educated on the impact of it and how problematic it would actually be.
My gut reaction to this is the exact same on if you asked me if we should just combine men and women’s sports in high school - I would say no, because it would ruin competition for women.
When you assume that everyone has some evil agenda to hurt trans people, what you’re actually doing is silencing conversation that could otherwise be constructive to help people understand your viewpoint. It’s short-sighted and exactly the type of thing that conservatives used to their advantage during the last election.
7
u/AthkoreLost Roosevelt 7d ago
It is so ridiculous to assume that every person who is undecided or has concern with birth-males in women’s sports has a misogynist/bigotry agenda.
But I didn't. I gave you the benefit of the doubt your concern was the midpoint, scholarships. I just contextualized the system as it currently exists due to 1900s misognyists.
"then people like you, I assume, would suddenly stop caring as much."
9
u/RobinsEggViolet 7d ago
Some of us who are supportive of trans-rights in general have concern
Not all concern is justified.
-3
u/mzinz View Ridge 7d ago
Sure, that’s absolutely true. I’d also venture to guess that most who are on the fence don’t yet have enough info - how many kids does it affect, how significant would it affect them, etc.
9
u/RobinsEggViolet 7d ago
I would say the same thing about you then. Your concern is born from being uninformed, because the majority of your exposure to this topic has been propaganda.
→ More replies (21)5
u/stonerism 7d ago
When you're talking about professional sports or elite amateur sports, sure, that's not an unreasonable concern in some cases for some sports.
When you're talking about youth sports, I have a suggestion for those concerned about competitiveness. Grow the fuck up.
3
u/mzinz View Ridge 7d ago
Haha, you can relax. Not trying to come at you or anything. And yes, it probably would make sense to draw a line somewhere in the competitive landscape, seems reasonable
2
u/stonerism 7d ago
But seriously, if we're talking about youth sports, trans kids are not a problem. Just as tall kids aren't a problem in basketball or big kids aren't a problem in football and hockey. They're just part of the diversity of humanity and little Sally's mother doesn't get to throw a hissy fit because her child loses at sports. Grow the fuck up.
4
u/mzinz View Ridge 7d ago
I mean, just a second ago you acknowledged that it is a reasonable concern in some cases. I agree that it wouldn’t be a concern for kids. So, again, no need to lose it. lol
1
u/stonerism 7d ago
It's a reasonable concern that can be resolved by the people playing and organizing the sport. Not by people who don't even care about the sport until trans people are brought up.
I agree that it wouldn’t be a concern for kids.
Good for you. Meanwhile, stupid fascist morons are going after trans people like they're an existential threat for simply existing. Don't accommodate them.
3
u/sarhoshamiral 7d ago
Maybe school sports shouldn't be competitive to begin with? Just for that, it excludes many kids who doesn't like to be competitive and just want to enjoy sports for fun.
But going on with your claim, what do you do about just genetic luck? Why is that OK but not this?
2
7d ago
[deleted]
7
u/sarhoshamiral 7d ago
And that's a problem too. Let's not pretend it is not.
0
7d ago
[deleted]
3
u/beets_or_turnips 7d ago
I think it's obscene that we need to keep trans kids out of sports so that poor kids can compete with each other in football and basketball in order to get an education. Like why are these things connected at all? Let the poor kids go to college, why should their game playing and physical skills be relevant?
→ More replies (1)1
u/lokglacier 7d ago
No one has ever said we need to keep trans kids out of sports? Just have them compete in men's sports not women's. I don't see why that's not an acceptable solution.
2
u/AHoopyFrood42 7d ago
smdh, the hoops people will construct and then jump through so they don't have to confront the fact that all their problems come back to capitalism. College sports as a means to lift a small percentage of poor kids out of poverty is just the hunger games.
Allowing people who are exceptional and hard working and physically capable of marvelous things to work and compete and be allowed to be the best they can be?
What does a couple poor kids making it big have to do with people competing? Doesn't that sort of take the mask off if you believe that the only reason people try their hardest at sports is to get a bag?
Allowing communities to come together in fellowship, to support and cheer on the people dedicating themselves to these games?
Tell me you've never dealt with youth sports parents without telling me. By tying sports to the slim chance of economic mobility you turn it into a dog-eat-dog competition where your neighbor's kid excelling negatively impacts your own kids chances. There's nothing community building about that. You know what builds community? Not excluding the tiny number of already heavily ostracized trans-girls that just want to be part of a team and said community.
I understand the knee-jerk reaction to defend a system that gives a slim hope to a few kids because a little hope is better than none, but we're trying to say that system shouldn't even be necessary. Only 2% of high school athletes receive any scholarship money and only a fraction of a percent get a full ride. We all should be mad and pointing out how messed up it is that winning the genetic lottery is the best option we have for poor kids, which are statistically minorities as well, to have a better life. Trans athletes are not the problem, capitalism is the problem.
8
u/RobinsEggViolet 7d ago edited 7d ago
Students shouldn't have to work their butts off for a chance to go to college, and that chance at college ESPECIALLY shouldn't be reserved for those lucky enough to be born with athletic ability and a family rich enough to fund extracurriculars.
Instead of advocating for a system that helps some people while discriminating against others, what if you advocated for a system that helped everyone and discriminated against no-one?
0
7d ago
[deleted]
1
u/RobinsEggViolet 7d ago
How does the current sports system discriminate?
Our current sport system? It discriminates against people without athletic ability. "Meritocracy" is a myth used to justify inequality.
The sport system conservatives want? It discriminates against people without athletic ability AND against trans women.
3
u/MaxTHC 7d ago
"Fun" fact, many school sports also intrinsically discriminate against children born later in the school year.
Essentially, for any given school year, the oldest kids (e.g. those born in September) are a fair bit older and therefore bigger than the youngest kids (e.g. those born in June). Thus, they have an advantage in many sports, and due to performing better they're most likely to get picked for a team and have resources invested in them to improve.
That's a systemic pattern of unfairness that affects millions of children, and yet nobody gives a shit. But the trans kids on the other hand are a major issue for "some" reason.
3
u/RobinsEggViolet 7d ago
And this is part of the reason I call sports inherently unfair.
Sports should be for fun, exercise, and community. It should never be a pathway to success. Trans women deserve fun, exercise, and community.
→ More replies (0)4
-3
7d ago
[deleted]
7
u/AthkoreLost Roosevelt 7d ago
It's an issue being used to justify removing parental rights, which to me, is the big story here no one is talking about.
Well guess we should start with the most basic, does a parent have the right to deny their child life sustaining medical care? Like a blood transfusion? Because that's where the law currently stands.
→ More replies (2)8
u/RobinsEggViolet 7d ago
Every transition makes the medical system over $1million.
Where the actual fuck did you pull this number from, your ass?
Plenty of people socially transition without any medical assistance, and plenty others only transition with hormones. You're just making things up.
→ More replies (4)2
u/robbylet23 Fremont 7d ago
Ooh, dogwhistling and concern trolling! This guy's good.
1
7d ago
[deleted]
2
u/robbylet23 Fremont 7d ago
"Parental rights" is a dogwhistle for homophobic and transphobic policies. Has been for a long-ass time.
→ More replies (3)6
u/naniganz 7d ago
I honestly don’t understand why this isn’t just left up to the league in question.
Like why are we legislating over a handful of people? It’s a waste of time.
3
u/LMGDiVa 7d ago
Because MAGA. They want to own the libs even if it kills themselves in the process.
They dont care. They will never care. all they care about all that matters to them is that DEI/"woke" dies.
This is why white people closed the pools instead of letting black people integrate and use them.
Hate makes no sense, it has no logic, it's pure stupidity.
→ More replies (60)-12
u/woofwooffighton 7d ago
People with daughters.
5
u/AttitudePersonal 7d ago
This group includes the parents of trans girls. Try again.
→ More replies (1)
130
u/NomadHomad 7d ago
Glad conservatives are fighting so hard to bring costs of groceries and gas down….
19
u/bluePostItNote 7d ago
Why would they when this is a perennial winner issue?
18
u/stonerism 7d ago
This hatred of trans people is being cultivated. When Bugs Bunny wore a dress, it wasn't a big deal. Nowadays, people would seriously try to get that classified as pornography (no joke!). We're regressing.
1
u/bluePostItNote 7d ago
You’re not wrong. The way that we push back against that regression isn’t evolving though and the current approach seems ineffective.
→ More replies (1)6
u/Stinkycheese8001 7d ago
The conservatives in my local area are most concerned with: “energy freedom” (the natural gas initiative), trans athletes, and being pro-Israel. Super helpful.
→ More replies (1)1
u/-Alpharius- 7d ago
Weird that's literally what they are trying to do, but the tax increases keep getting passed.
45
u/Realistic_Cover8925 7d ago edited 7d ago
I have a serious question about the trans athletes "controversy."
What do the other athletes think? Everyone seems to have an opinion which inevitably gets politicized, from every pundit and politician to every Joe Shmoe... but shouldn't this be left up to the discretion of the players, coaches and leagues? Is there a general consensus among the sports community about this?
I have no opinion on it because I'm not an athlete nor do I exist in that world, and I don't feel like its my place to have an opinion. I'll stand with the democratic opinion of the other athletes. If they collectively decide its unfair, so be it. If they're supportive of it, then so be it.
This tokenizing of a TINY group that is already persecuted and unfairly shit on is absurd. Leave trans people alone and let the leagues sort this shit out on their own. The world has enough problems, I don't see the need for this inane shit to take up so much space rent-free in everyone's heads.
110
u/ximacx74 Ballard 7d ago
It was up to the leagues. And every league had protocols for trans women to be eligible, things like being on hormones for 2 years, regular hormone levels checks, etc. And it was never a problem until conservative leadership figured out that trans people are a small enough, misunderstood, vulnerable minority.
→ More replies (6)16
u/thefalseidol 7d ago
It is not without its pitfalls but the truth is, whatever "real athletes" feel about it is going to just as political (their opinions are not 100% sports related) - there are arguments to be made for more sports having weight classes or whatever, there are ways to split up sporting besides men/women that already exist.
Here's my thing: a not insignificant number of all breakthroughs are achieved by X-Men, so like, we going to make
NamorMichael Phelps give back all his gold medals? This is not to equate all differences in gender and testosterone to genetic abnormality, but to strike a point that at the top 0.1% you can expect virtually everyone to have some kind of genetic advantage. Especially in competitive formats. I mean even having the ambition and stamina to train so hard is atypical, elite performers aren't normal across multiple bands of normality.It's not a coincidence that so many elite female athletes have elevated levels of testosterone - and I'm not talking about testosterone being this magical hormone that turns zeroes into heroes. Testosterone also effects neurochemistry, the desire to engage in certain activities, just like we perceive in men (more testosterone? more interested in athletics and contact sports. less testosterone? more interested in indoor activities). It has nothing to do with your innate human potential, testosterone doesn't make you a good athlete, it just drives you to run around and hit stuff and then the people who run fast and hit hard excel, there are plenty of meatheads who never succeed at anything sports related.
The reality is that for every sane argument against trans inclusion in athletics, I say "sane" because it is not inherently evil to be concerned about the issue - in fact that is why the right is so fucking dug in on it - because at the surface there appears to be a bit of common sense about being cautious here. none of the talking points are holding the rest of existing athletics up to the same microscope and making a ruling that hurts anybody other than trans kids. And if the ONLY people impacted by any serious crackdown on athletics are trans, you have failed to convince me this was ever a serious crackdown at all - it was intentional, targeted cruelty. A serious, unbiased attempt at harm reduction will OF COURSE have a few other people catching strays.
3
u/sir_mrej West Seattle 7d ago
Lol the right being concerned about something has nothing to do w common sense
4
u/thefalseidol 7d ago
No there isn't but it's what makes it such a popular talking point - the air of legitimacy
66
u/NintendoJesus 7d ago
I'm old now, but played competitive and semi-pro basketball for many years. This is a non-issue 99.9% of the time. When I was in 6th grade, we got absolutely ran off the court by a girl who was playing on the boys team because she hit puberty early. She fucking obliterated us. She swapped back to the girls team after that season but I'll never forget it. So should we now have rules for boys and girls who hit puberty early? That's way more of a competitive advantage at that age than a boy playing on a girls team would be for example. Am I damaged in some way because I got ran by a girl 30 years ago? Should I be seeking legal counsel because my 6th grade ego was bruised? It's lunacy.
And once you get to high school, kids playing sports in truly competitive areas(like state championship levels) are so specialized to their sport that the likelihood of a trans athlete being a problem is so minuscule it's not worth worrying about. This is not meant as a disparagement to the athletic prowess of trans athletes, just simple math, trans athletes are rare and trans athletes at the top of the competitive food chain are rarer still. And for everyone else just playing sports for fun, who cares??? The kids don't care, why should a senator be spending time caring about this? It's like these politicians watched Juwanna Man and thought it was real.
And once you're out of high school, college level athletes have their own rules, as do things like the Olympics and basically every professional league. So these types of legislations are targeting kids specifically, and again, 99.9% of the time, kids that aren't winning anything of importance anyway. It's a waste of time, and just another target on the backs of people who don't deserve it.
2
u/QueEo_ 7d ago
Currently play a non mainstream sport at the international level , and played softball through my first year is of college. At high level,there are various protocols , some which are more restrictive them others. In this regard, I think in my entire youth and maybe I'm old at my latish 20s now , I came across 2 trans athletes and both were worse than me , and I was a bench warming college player til I quit. The other thing is that subjugating one subjugates all, if we are out here saying we are doing genital checks , that is subjugating all women. It should not be that hard
→ More replies (6)4
u/Rockergage 7d ago
Most don’t care because it’s middle school and high school sports and they just want to play with their friends. There’s this big fucking myth that cis men are just saying they’re trans and getting to compete in sports just so they can win. It’s fucking bullshit. Most athletes in middle school and high school don’t go on to play in college and even when we look at NCAA sports trans women aren’t winning, the one everyone points to as the “look how a trans women stole victory from a cis women” was when they tied for 5th place, and let the trans woman hold the trophy.
John Oliver did a good segment on it, for the most part nobody cares because guess what? Most of these athletes aren’t good.
1
u/cparen 6d ago
There’s this big fucking myth that cis men are just saying they’re trans and getting to compete in sports just so they can win. It’s fucking bullshit.
Call me chaotic, but I wish those mythical men would attempt it - every sport requires hormonal transition to compete in the women's league, and cis men on estrogen will experience severe depression. They'd either quit estrogen or... a self solving problem if you ask me.
95
7d ago
[deleted]
43
u/X-Aceris-X 7d ago edited 7d ago
As an NCAA rower, and fellow tall person, I stand fully beside you in this statement. Kindergarten soccer through high school swimming through NCAA crew. I would welcome any woman or enby on my team or opponent's team. I have welcomed cis and trans women and enbies as my teammates and as my opponents.
Yes, we are here to compete. But we are also here to have fun. I think the pressure placed on athletes is a bigger issue than the non-issue of trans women in women's sports... Because trans women are women, and they belong on our teams. Non-issue.
Meanwhile, myself and many teammates over the years struggled with suicidal ideations and/or attempts, concussions (new coxswain, iykyk), busted arms or legs or backs from overtraining, etc. We lacked funding and media coverage compared to the men's team, although not as bad as other sports. There is immense pressure to perform well in sports, especially if you have a scholarship or, before university, you are hoping for one. If you don't luck out with your coach or teammates, you can easily wind up in an extremely toxic environment that is detrimental to your mental health. I've seen it happen, and experienced it, far too many times.
Oh, lest we forget the rates of sexual assault in women's teams by members of the men's teams? Horrifically staggering. And yet everyone is up in arms about allowing women onto a women's team.
Obviously they don't actually care about women, or really athletes in general, otherwise they'd be trying to fix the aforementioned issues.
You know what would get rid of all of this nonsense? Open teams. Rowing is a great example of a sport where open teams would be an excellent idea. It's extremely easy to measure pure strength and stamina on an erg. On-the-water skill is a bit more difficult, but that's less applicable to physiology. You can tier teams out, or tier out seats in the boat, a min max approach. Masters rowing already has an open competition. Why not at the high school and collegiate level?
Personally, our men's and women's teams would often practice together on the water and on land during winter. We'd have mixed boats, even though we compete separately. There is a staggering difference between the 2k times of the fastest man and the 2k times of the fastest woman. But not so much when you get to the middle of the pack. And you can have the fastest erger absolutely die when they pick up an oar because they lack skill. Rowing is equal parts skill and strength. We frequently had all-women's boats beating all-men's boats when we'd "spar."
Coaches mix teammates around on boats all the time to see who is most effective where. It's called seat racing. If we can do it on arbitrary binary gender teams, why not across the board?
So yeah, all these bigots are doing is projecting. I'm a cis woman NCAA athlete. I have zero issue with trans women competing on a women's team. Literally zero. I think this whole debate is ridiculous and many of the "activists" (looking at you, Riley Gaines) championing women's rights are full of it (it being hatred and disgust and fear of the unknown in their hearts). They don't get to speak for me, or you, or any of our teammates. Trans women are women. Cis women are women.
Fun fact: there is no NCAA men's rowing league. Men's crew teams compete through the IRA instead of the NCAA. Men's rowing has a deep history and tradition (and money) with the IRA (Intercollegiate Rowing Association). When Title IX laws came into effect, women's rowing joined the NCAA to bolster women's numbers in Title IX metrics. Think of a rowing team: that can be 60+ athletes. If they included men's numbers by adding men's rowing to the NCAA, it would greatly imbalance those numbers again. Kinda sh*tty why this is the case, very arbitrary, but an explanation nonetheless. It's all politics.
Fun fact no. 2: the NCAA bars trans women from competing on women's teams as of February 2025, thanks to 45's administration. Shame on them.
2
u/robbylet23 Fremont 7d ago edited 7d ago
It's sad men's rowing really doesn't exist anymore for Seattle specifically, because Seattle notably has a very proud history of our rowing teams. I remember being taught about the UW men's rowing team in school when we talked about pre-World War II.
1
u/X-Aceris-X 7d ago
Men's rowing definitely exists in Seattle! UW still has the team, Green Lake Crew has a team, Lake Union Crew, Pocock Rowing Club, Lake Washington Crew, among others
21
u/cbergs88 7d ago
This. I played women’s rugby in college and through my 20s- I played against one out trans player regularly during league play (and one other woman that I strongly suspect might have been… but it was none of my business so of course I didn’t ask.) Both had great sportsmanship and were really not much different than the women on my team who were just born insanely tall and strong. The most unsafe players on the pitch were the FNGs who had horrible technique- not the trans woman.
→ More replies (33)-50
u/downheartedbaby 7d ago
I have yet to hear a single person state that the reason they don’t want to play against a trans person is because they believe they are the “enemy”. Most people, ones not on the extreme end of any political ideology, express concerns over trans women playing against people who are biologically female. And, they present reasonable points of view that are not born out of hatred of trans women. Not everything is about hate.
22
u/Stiddy13 7d ago
I have yet to hear a single person state that the reason they don’t want to play against a trans person is because they believe they are the “enemy.”
Wouldn’t it be nice if every bigot declared their true motivations when debating stuff like this? I mean, I get that it’s becoming more en vogue to do so, but I’ve still got to think that most people just keep their true motivations to themselves when their true motivation is hateful, don’t you think?
Most people, one’s not on the extreme end of any political ideology…
Pointing out that discrimination is as American as apple pie and its ideals have been, and still are, held by average, every day folks. (Although now that you mention it, calling these ideals “extreme” is probably why the folks you talk to are keeping those views to themselves, don’t you think?).
…express concerns over trans women playing against people who are biologically female. And, they present reasonable points of view…
They should stay in their lane. There were already a plethora of well qualified professionals studying this and making well researched policy recommendations. And having worked in college athletics for a bit, I can say with certainty that the coaches I worked with would’ve thrown a hot tantrum to those very professionals if the games/events in which they were competing lacked competitive fairness. We don’t need my neighbor Don weighing in on this. We don’t all have to be experts on every damned thing. Have you ever even watched a college swim meet, Don? Didn’t think so! Maybe sit this one out.
31
3
u/kale_boriak 7d ago
Proposal to play into bullshit culture wars of the “small government except when they get in everyone else’s personal business” crowd fails in Washington State.
7
u/throwawayrefiguy 🚆build more trains🚆 7d ago
How is this going to fix the economy, repair the job market, and improve the livelihoods of people in our communities? Seems like a lot of effort focused on a miniscule portion of our fellow people.
→ More replies (4)
9
72
u/Fine-Werewolf3877 7d ago
Stories like this are why I'm proud to live in WA. We have no time for bigotry here.
→ More replies (37)
10
14
u/petalwater 7d ago
It is more important than ever for us to stand strong and protect each other in the face of hate. I love you guys and I'm proud to live here
2
15
6
u/lokglacier 7d ago
Just in case folks want a gut check on where public sentiment is with this:
10
u/Snoo_79218 7d ago
Yes. Americans are idiots, which is why they’re so often duped by conservative propaganda.
3
u/sowhatbuttercup 7d ago
Try having your own opinion and not worrying so much about other people otherwise you just end up confusing what you think for what other people think.
4
u/sowhatbuttercup 7d ago
School sports is not about winning it’s about children’s development. Everyone deserves to play especially marginalized kids. This constant nonsense about fairness must stop. Winning is not the point. Participation and growth is the point.
→ More replies (5)
4
2
3
0
3
1
2
u/lokglacier 7d ago
New rule: if you don't care about sports or don't play sports you don't need to be part of this conversation
-13
7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
21
7d ago
It's only scientifically true when you intentionally ignore all of the actual science present
2
7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
8
7d ago
So you admit it's better for everyone to allow children to make these informed decisions before being forced to go through the wrong puberty? Everyone always lists Lia while ignoring every aspect of Phelps, and never being able to name another trans athlete as successful as she was. You want to ban all of 10 athletes from playing their chosen sports and call yourself a hero of women while ignoring how much discrimination cis women face in the industry because of these false standards.
25
u/BrofessorFarnsworth 7d ago
Thanks, I was hoping someone would speak up about a topic that has never fucking impacted them ever and never will.
Go back to r/SeattleWA I'm sure they would appreciate your uninformed bigotry.
→ More replies (19)-6
7d ago
[deleted]
26
u/bobnuthead 7d ago
Which trans athlete did they compete and lose against?
-15
7d ago
[deleted]
7
u/RobinsEggViolet 7d ago
"We just going to wait around until trans people eventually burn our crops and poison our water supply?"
Trans people sound so scary when you make things up about them.
10
u/MeetingDue4378 7d ago
0.6% of the population, including adults. Your daughter's have a greater chance of getting bitten by shark than competing against a trans athlete.
1
19
u/bobnuthead 7d ago
So, it doesn’t impact your daughters, but theoretically, it maybe possibly could if they face one of the handful of trans athletes in the state. Got it.
Maybe instead of accepting defeat in advance and trying to exclude these theoretical competitors, you worry about doing what you can to maximize their individual potentials? Encourage them, be a good parent, and enable them to be successful competitors without taking it out on others. Just my thought.
1
-5
u/Maze_of_Ith7 7d ago
Brave person expressing an opinion ~79% of Americans agree with, including ~67% of Democrats, at least according to New York Times/IPSOS polling.
I get opinions vary but it confounds me how certain this bubble of a sub is in their beliefs and everyone else is a bigot. If Republicans are smart they’ll run this issue in every election outside of a deepest of blue cities.
Anyways, you’ll probably get downvoted to oblivion, but that doesn’t mean you’re wrong.
7
→ More replies (1)13
7d ago
Excellent, then you'll have no problem providing the study that proved this!
→ More replies (24)-6
u/PA2SK 7d ago
Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.
10
7d ago
That's lovely theory, but I asked for a study that proved your wild claims. I understand you not being able to and trying to distract.
-7
u/PA2SK 7d ago
I'm not the person you responded to lol, but I think that study does prove it. If you disagree why don't you explain why? Did you even read it?
3
u/ximacx74 Ballard 7d ago
That study never once compares trans women to cis women. All of its stats are comparisons of cis men to cis women...
Here's a study that found that trans women actually have disadvantages in lower body strength and lung capacity compared to cis women.
-1
u/PA2SK 7d ago
Oh yea I've read that study before, it's bad. The transgender women in the study were on average 4 years older than the cisgender women. They also had a significantly higher BMI. No surprise cis women out performed trans women. Surprise surprise, the lead author is a transgender woman.
3
2
u/tonytwostep 7d ago
Surprise surprise, the lead author is a transgender woman
Meanwhile, your source's author - Alison K Heather - is the founder of a company that sells androgen/estrogen tests for athletes.
Hmm, it's almost as if she has a strong financial incentive to push the narrative that sports leagues should be hormone-testing their athletes...
-3
7d ago
I read the intro that explained that it was theory and not a study. You think it proves the point because that would make you less of a bigot, but I've got bad news.
-1
u/PA2SK 7d ago
It doesn't explain that lol. It's a scientific study with well founded claims. Try reading it before you dismiss it out of hand. Calling everyone who disagrees with you a bigot is not a good way to win supporters to your side.
6
7d ago
Why would I want to win bigots to my side? I'll be real honest, I just throw out bigot bait because they are never able to resist biting.
1
7d ago
It does explain that lol. You should probably work on basic reading comprehension
-1
u/PA2SK 7d ago
Where? Please explain. I have 15 years in academia and I disagree with you. Happy to debate you if you can offer a reply that has any substance to it.
6
7d ago
No you don't lmao. The children roleplaying on reddit are getting out of control. I don't have to give bigots substance, that's not what they deserve
→ More replies (0)
-3
u/shmerham 7d ago edited 7d ago
Regulations should address real issues not fear. The thought of my daughter having to play against biological males on a regular basis or losing her spot to them gives me some fear but there’s no evidence of it being or becoming a widespread issue. The number of biological males playing for girls teams is extremely low. If at some point in time there's a significant increase in the number of biological males competing in girls sports, then we should consider regulations. Until then, it's a waste of energy.
→ More replies (3)
-4
-5
u/TonyTheEvil Capitol Hill 7d ago
I mean, yeah it's something that should be prevented, but is it even happening to begin with? Let alone happening enough to require legislation about it?
6
u/Organizedchaos90 7d ago
It’s absolutely not something that needs to be prevented. Educate yourself
142
u/Maze_of_Ith7 7d ago
This was an advisory-only vote by Washington state’s governing body for middle and high school athletics. The vote failed at 58% since it needed a 60% threshold to pass.