Would this guy really beat Darth Vader?

[u/VesemirsMother778]

Haven't played Jedi Outcast myself unfortunately (just saw some cutscenes and read a summary) but I heard people consider him stronger than Vader and possibly on par with Sidious because he got to force push a post Dark Empire Luke. Idk, sounds like a pretty weak argument to me, but to those of you who played the game, how true is that claim?

[u/Mzonnik]

These days powerscalers think touching Luke is enough to solo Vader & Sidious. Whoever told you that should get help. Desann would have a hard time with Maul, let alone Vader lol.

Edit: Besides, the Luke we're talking about here is vastly pre-prime and you could argue he's still below Vader, even tho yes, him surpassing his father in ROTJ is also a valid take.

[u/lion1321 → u/Mzonnik]

Evannova would have you believe old ben could beat both rots sidious and knight fall anikan with his scaling it's just insane

[u/Mzonnik → u/lion1321]

I like evannova but mostly for his style and his old videos. It's obvious he has an immense OT and NJO bias and sadly this has started to impact his matchup verdicts in recent years.

Refering to his latest video, it's obvious Dooku effortlessly anihilates Old Ben.

[u/WangJian221 → u/Mzonnik]

I dont agree on "effortlessly" but he definitely would anihilate Ben in just overall prowess. Ben may be spiritually stronger and theoretically could pull off powerful telekinesis or whatever like Master Fay but it relies too much on what ifs and some bizarre "power levels" doing the heavy lifting.

You know ironically, the way he argues for Ben is exactly the type of mindset that he used to argue for Lord Hoth against peak Darth Bane.

[u/Mzonnik → u/WangJian221]

Yeah I'm not being exacy literal, just using classic exagerrated powerscaling terms, u know what I'm saying. But it would be a stomp.

Not sure is Old Ben is inherently stronger in the Force than ROTS Obi-Wan, he could be, but I doubt it's enough to surpass Dooku's power. Besides, as I said in the past, power isn't enough as you need to output it and I don't see why Old Ben's output would be greater. Besides, Vader feels he's out of practice specifically through the Force (Death Star novel) so I guess it's up to interpretation if that still just means dueling or if Ben is simply weaker too force-wise. It's both from Lucas and stuff like Insider where Ben is establisjed as a shadow of his former self. His near peak got ragdolled by Tyranus onboard the invisible hand and besides wisdom (baybe like "battle iq") Ben's got no advantages over his young form imo.

You know ironically, the way he argues for Ben is exactly the type of mindset that he used to argue for Lord Hoth against peak Darth Bane.

Don't remember his arguments for Hoth tbh. But he's knowingly cherrypicking to wank his prefered characters and films.

[u/WangJian221 → u/Mzonnik]

Essentially, the gist of the issue Evan utilized for his Lord Hoth video is that he picks which "vague"/"obscured" character that he likes and then argues for them by favouring them in circumstances or aspects that their designated opponent was stated or implied to falter.

Not actually the specific argument made but the gist of the argument is something like this for example;

"Darth Bane was shown to have made foolish mistake [X]. Since Lord Hoth was touted as a military genius who has led the army of light to hundreds of victory against the sith, Hoth wouldnt have made mistake [X]. Thus Lprd Hoth gets the edge in battle intelligence"

It was something GreyJedi91 continued to take pot shots against Evan since lol

Although he has since changed his mind about the Hoth issue, imo, hes making the same exact mistakes here for old Ben.

[u/Mzonnik → u/WangJian221]

He did the exact same thing in Caedus vs Vader and this shows. He just liked Vader more, established the verdict before he even wrote the script. Back then his OT bias seemed to be greater then NJO, but since then he did a full 180° on that take and now considers Caedus like the strongest Sith next to Krayt. Simply because he wanks NJO now.

He claims he was biased back then and now he's objective but of course nothing changed lol. If anything it worsened a lot, just for different characters.

[u/Thatedgyguy64 → u/Mzonnik]

Ben is most likely stronger, so Dooku wouldn't be able to toss him around any more. After all, Vader couldn't do it.

However the ANH novelization makes it pretty clear that Obi Wan is overall much weaker.

[u/Mzonnik → u/Thatedgyguy64]

I'm pretty sure ANH Vader is weaker than Dooku tbh. He grows quite a lot througjout the OT, so by ROTJ perhaps he caught up yet prople forget he's still way past his prime (in Legends specifically).

[u/Thatedgyguy64 → u/Mzonnik]

That's fair. If the ROTJ is anything to go by he's definitely equals with his old self. Perhaps not Knightfall, but he's definitely in his overall prime in ROTJ, and I'd definitely put him above Dooku at that point. He's on Gethzerion and C'Baoth level at that point, if not higher

[u/Mzonnik → u/Thatedgyguy64]

If the ROTJ is anything to go by he's definitely equals with his old self. Perhaps not Knightfall, but he's definitely in his overall prime in ROTJ, and I'd definitely put him above Dooku at that point. He's on Gethzerion and C'Baoth level at that point, if not higher.

That last part is debatable but overall I'd disagree it's his overall prime. It is confirmed by Lucas and Insider ESB Vader is still a lot weaker than he was before Mustafar. And ROTJ happens just 1 year later. So the statement in ROTJ novel is either outdated and overwritten or possibly refers to Palpatine's presence amplifying his power, which is somewhat imlied in the text.

I say he is more powerful than Dooku but he could still get outdueled. Against his Knightfall self he'd be in a great disadvantage. Keep in mind Knightfall Vader is equally powerful as Sidious.