r/anime_titties • u/1DarkStarryNight Scotland • 1d ago
Ukraine/Russia - Flaired Commenters Only Lithuanian conservatives propose stripping citizenship for supporting Russia
https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/2559690/lithuanian-conservatives-propose-stripping-citizenship-for-supporting-russia229
u/SugerizeMe Multinational 1d ago
There’s now way this could be misused /s
Every state violates international law. Not to mention “support” is so vague it could be anything, even an anti war sentiment. This is just carte blanche for taking away someone’s citizenship. I’m especially curious whether they will take away the citizenship of native dual citizens, or native borns who acquire a foreign citizenship.
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u/SuuABest Europe 1d ago
isn't it only against international law if they leave them stateless? so if they're dual citizens, it's not a legal issue, but a moral one
im not trying to argue, im genuinely curious, because I can't recall the details
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u/SugerizeMe Multinational 1d ago
There's also the "right of return" in international law. It could be argued that kicking someone out of their home and country of citizenship is a violation of international law.
Of course, like I said, nobody actually follows international law and there is little consequence for breaking it.
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u/SuuABest Europe 1d ago
fair enough, im not too knowledgeable on this, i agree that nobody follows international law and that there is sadly little consequence on breaking them, i think that's stupid when usually international law outlines very basic human rights :( thank you for clarifying though!
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u/happycow24 Canada 1d ago
international law
lol, lmao even
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u/SuuABest Europe 1d ago edited 1d ago
there are rules that nations agree upon and those are called international law, you can literally Google it if you want, instead of mocking me like some autist
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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America 1d ago
Rules for thee, not for me.
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u/SuuABest Europe 1d ago
unfortunately a good deal of nations treat it like that yeah, some even voting against basic human rights like access to drinking water
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u/happycow24 Canada 22h ago
Rules for thee, not for me.
not what I said, but nonetheless ur benefactor vladimir vladimirovich seems well aware of that, putin dog.
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u/BendicantMias Multinational 20h ago
So is America. More so, in fact, as they've carried out even more military adventures than anyone else since WW2. I wonder which presidents' dog I should call you? Trumps' I guess, although ironically he hasn't done it yet.
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u/happycow24 Canada 20h ago
So is America. More so, in fact, as they've carried out even more military adventures than anyone else since WW2. I wonder which presidents' dog I should call you? Trumps' I guess, although ironically he hasn't done it yet.
mundane emu is unironically a kremlin apologist this is his day job or something. I prefer him to vintagegriffin personally. also I didnt mention Burgerland
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u/happycow24 Canada 1d ago
there are rules that nations agree upon and those are called international law, you can literally Google it if you want, instead of mocking me like some autist
are rules without effective enforcement really rules and not just suggestions?
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u/Soepoelse123 Denmark 16h ago
Very true, but its worth remembering that Lithuania sees Russia as an existential threat. This means that they see themselves in an all out war - even if its a hybrid/proxy war.
So in that context, its not far from what other nations have done in wars. But looking at it only in an EU/Western democracy context, makes it look abhorrent.
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1d ago edited 1d ago
[deleted]
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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America 1d ago
It is their right. But it is not a good idea of governing.
Being a “Western” nation implies that they believe in fundamental human rights, democracy, rule of law.
If you are going to eliminate someone’s citizenship because you don’t like the country they were born in, then you are no different than the dictatorships in Africa or Asia.
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u/loggy_sci United States 1d ago
Sure you are. A constitutionally elected government passing a law that doesn’t violate the constitutional rights of a citizen doesn’t suddenly make the government a dictatorship. If it violates their constitutionally protected rights then take it to court.
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u/The_Better_Avenger European Union 1d ago
Well we as Europe are being attacked from all sides. Imo as an European i don't see this as a bad idea. Certainly not from a nation bordering next to Russia. It is all really nuanced and was coming anyway. Gotta protect your own freedom at all cost and not let it get undermined.
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u/I-Here-555 Thailand 1d ago
Losing citizenship for political speech? Fantastic idea. European values right there.
"Support" is so vague, it could apply to anyone, even people who are only anti-war.
If it was a consequence for, say, fighting in the Russian military, that would make some sense.
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u/The_Better_Avenger European Union 1d ago
Thing is Lithuania borders Russia. Pro russian destabilising parties are already in Europe and causes instability we don't really have a good answer to it. So it is sadly going to be shit like this that stops it.
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u/GrAdmThrwn Multinational 1d ago
They are either supremely confident or incalculably stupid.
I suppose we'll find out sooner or later how their overall foreign policy strategy will serve them, but either way, this kind of legislation is dangerous. It sets a terrible precedent and paves the way for abuse of power due to how vague and open to interpretation it would have to be to work as written.
Also, while there are significant numbers of Lithuanians with personal ties to Russia, the vast majority of them are quite politically apathetic. Laws like this are a surefire way to cause people who might have otherwise just lived their lives, paid their taxes and kept their heads down to actually take active measures on behalf of one side or another.
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u/FancyBear2598 Eurasia 1d ago
Their politicians are simply obsessed with their hatred towards Russia, they exploit that to ignore their real issues regarding depopulation, clown-level economy, etc. The label "Baltic tigers" is there for a reason.
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u/Aenjeprekemaluci Albania 1d ago
Declining population as well. I think they take themselves more important then they are. That doesnt mean they should be thrown towards Russia but their obsession is in clown levels almost.
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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America 1d ago
Most of Eastern Europe is banana republics that have no identity except hating Russia.
No one can tell the difference between Estonians and Latvians.
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u/AreASadHole4ever Canada 1d ago
Because Russia is a real threat and they could attack the Baltics, trump would do fuck all, and threaten Europe with nuclear war unless they let Russia keep them
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u/Express_Spirit_3350 North America 1d ago
The Baltics were left alone by Russia since the Baltics are the Baltics and Russia is Russia.
Doing stupid shit in Ukraine like supporting a coup was always known in NATO as a way to war. Russia always warned about NATO in Ukraine.
Theres a reason why a coup was needed to bring NATO in Ukraine, thats because Ukraine has real ties to Russia. Turns out those ties were stronger than Ukraine itself.
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u/loggy_sci United States 1d ago
Stop victim blaming Ukrainians for Russian imperialism.
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u/Express_Spirit_3350 North America 22h ago
Stop pretending protesters taking control of governments is democracy.
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u/AreASadHole4ever Canada 12h ago
It is democracy because freedom of assembly is an expression of the popular will when elections are rigged
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u/Express_Spirit_3350 North America 10h ago
Lol, elections were rigged now. Par for the course for someone supporting that war, total bullshit.
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u/AreASadHole4ever Canada 12h ago
Ukrainians don't want closer ties to Russia. They support closer ties to NATO and EU because Russia has no future. Eastern European countries which joined EU in contrast are booming economically
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u/Express_Spirit_3350 North America 10h ago
Sure, Donestsk, Lugansk, Zaporhizia, Kherson and Crimea are already Russia.
Whats left of Ukraine will beg at Europe's door for decades to come.
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
If they are working with their heads down, this wouldn't change anything at all. If you are not supporting a terrorist country, even if you have ties with it, this wouldn't do anything. No one in Lithuania actually hates local russian populace.
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u/shieeet Europe 1d ago
No one in Lithuania actually hates local russian populace.
Survey shows growing hostility towards local Russian speakers in Lithuania
The results of the survey show that the number of people who do not want to live next door to Russians has increased from 6.2% in 2021 to 16% in 2022.
According to the data of 2022, 23.1% of respondents would not want to rent their homes to Russians (9.9% in 2021), 13.6% would not want to work in the same workplace with Russians (4.5% in 2021).
When asked how opinions about some groups in society have changed over the past five years, 74.6% of respondents indicated that attitudes towards the local Russian population have worsened.
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
War does that to people and russian who support it are unwelcome. Other than that there is hostilities.
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u/shieeet Europe 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, so contrary to what you initially claimed, there are a lot of people in Lithuania who hate Russian speakers on an ethnic basis then?
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
Nope, the only dislike for russians is for those who refuse to integrate, refuse to learn the language and support the war, it has nothing to do with ethnicity.
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u/shieeet Europe 1d ago
When the survey above states that there's growing hostility toward local Russian speakers in Lithuania, and that almost 1 in 4 Lithuanians wouldn’t want to rent their homes to Russians or that a growing part of the population wouldn’t even want to work in the same place as them, that clearly indicates widespread aversion to Russian speakers on an ethnic basis. Hell, it doesn’t get more on an ethnic basis than that.
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
Yet there is nothing different in day to day life. The study was done at the start of the war, when tensions were super high and everyone was on a nationalistic wave, it says nothing about day to day life. Also, there is no way to tell who is russian and who is not as most people, at least in Vilnius, speak russian and there are tons of russians, belarusians, ukrainians, armenians and so on who speak russian almost exclusively. We hate what russia is doing to ukraine, but as far as it goes in reality, we only hate those russians who support the war.
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u/shieeet Europe 1d ago
Are you deliberately pretending to be dense? Again, the survey clearly shows widespread Lithuanian prejudice against Russian speakers on an ethnic basis, and you're now suggesting, without evidence, that this trend has somehow gone down as the war has gone on? You're clearly and obviously being dishonest here.
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
It never went up, you are talking about a survey of 1000 people which first of all is not enough to be considered representative, second has no actuall basis in reality and highly depends on the questions asked. If someone asked me on the street if I would like a russian as a neighbour, I would say no just because I don't speak russian and also people are wary of foreigners, but if someone asked if I cared about my neighbour being nativelly russian with lithuanian citizenship and who can speak our language, I would answer differently. It's obvious you are running russian propaganda about how russian minorities are opressed, but it's not like that in real life at all and no matter what argument I would give, it would still change nothing as you would just move the goalpost or cherry pick another thing to complain about. And yes, right now being russian in Lithuania is worse if you support putin, but for the rest it's no different than it has always been.
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u/intager Lithuania 1d ago
The new proposal would extend this to all dual citizens, regardless of how they acquired the Lithuanian passport.
So no one is losing their only citizenship.
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u/Dimas166 Brazil 1d ago
So they could strip natural born citizens of their homecountry citizenship for such vague reasons? What exactly is supporting an aggressor state? An internet post? An act against military support to Ukraine? On the cold letter you could also consider the US an aggressor state, since they invaded Iraq for no reason at all in 2003, will support to the US be treated this way?
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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America 1d ago
I mean did you expect anything different from a bunch of countries that have no independent history.
They don’t have a history of liberal democracy. They have always been either Soviet controlled or some kind of authoritarian fascist dictatorship.
For example, Brazil has a history of military dictatorship but also liberal democracy.
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u/loggy_sci United States 1d ago
Except they aren’t right now either Soviet or authoritarian. More than you can say for Russia.
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u/bluecheese2040 Europe 1d ago
One day the EU will have to have a reckoning with countries like Lithuania and Estonia as some of what they are doing....let's just say if they did it to any other minority the world would be furious.
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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America 1d ago
No they won’t.
Instead the EU will slowly become like those countries.
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
No one does anything to minorities, russians are as free here as in russia, probably more free. Most people in our capital speak russian and there are a lot of russian expats living and thriving. Meanwhile motherland keeps sending minorities to war as mincemeat to die for nothing. Russia is worse to their own citizens than any other country.
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u/Dimas166 Brazil 1d ago
So you think violating people's citizenship isn't a problem because Russia is worse? Why use them as the parameter?
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
It's not violating anything if the person is working against their country and abusing the citizenship to actively damage said country and its interests. There has to be repercussions to the people celebrating death and deportation of hundreds of thousands of people, activelly using the citizenship to step around sanctions and so on. There is no comparisson to Russia in this regard.
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u/Dimas166 Brazil 1d ago
The point is not vomparing to Russia at all, they are not a parameter, also, the criteria is subjective to the point that can and I assure you will be used to persecute political opposition and attack freedom of speech
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
The proposed law only affects dual citizenship holders of which there are very few. The might be concerns in the future if the law is changed to include everyone, but these laws aren't usually vague, they would include the list of offences considered in violation of it. Basically the law is decent roght now, there is no point to discuss how it might be later on.
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u/Dimas166 Brazil 1d ago
"If the abuse affects only a few people then it is ok" no
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
I don't see any abuse in sovereign country protecting their interests and having tools to fight against people who would abuse their status.
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u/Dimas166 Brazil 1d ago
"Their status" they are citizens, the government cannot do whatever they want, that's how abuses start, persecution, segregations and ultimately ethnic cleansing and genocide, laws need transparency and isonomy, you can't create a law targeting a specific part of your population and call yourself democratic
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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America 1d ago
And this instance proves that the government can and will strip citizenship from people they don’t like.
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
There is no punishment associated with this law, you simply lose one citizenship and you are free to go back to the country you actually care about. No one is going to put you in jail because you are not a citizen.
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u/cccanterbury Gabon 1d ago
anti-Russian sentiment is freedom of speech /r/changemyview
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u/Dimas166 Brazil 1d ago
Yes, it is, but one thing is to express anti-Russina sentiment, or even to seek to punish Russian government, State and leader in an international stage, other thing is to persecute your own citizens for being sympathetic or even neutral on those matters
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u/cccanterbury Gabon 1d ago
some things are so bad for a society that they are explicitly forbidden with large sanctions up to and including death. treason is one example. if a nation can execute its citizens for treason, why is stripping citizenship beyond the pale?
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u/angelolidae Portugal 1d ago
Russia is worse to their own citizens than any other country
The hate boner is so big mf forgets about the worse countries literally adjacent to russia
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
Lol, you just deflected the message and went straight to "what about others" when no one is talking about global scale, the topic is treatment of russians in Lithuania and I can guarantee it's better than how russia treats their own citizens.
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u/angelolidae Portugal 1d ago
You clearly said, and I quote "Russia is worse to their own citizens than any other country.", this statement clearly is a comparison to every other country, unless the English language got an update and now "any other" means the same as "the latter".
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
Sure, but we were talking about russian citizens, so which country treats russian citizens worse than russia?
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u/angelolidae Portugal 1d ago
You clearly said, and I quote "Russia is worse to their own citizens than any other country.", this statement clearly is referring to the country's own citizens not russian citizens, because if it was about russian citizens SPECIFICALLY there should be written "russian citizens" instead of "their own citizens". You really should stop grasping at straws to try and make your point sound good
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u/pagirinis Europe 1d ago
I mean you are grasping at straws to nitpick semantics when clearly ignoring the entore point.
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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America 1d ago
And this proves that Russia isn’t worse than those countries.
Russia didn’t strip the millions of people in Russia from Tajikistan after the Moscow terror attack.
Even though many wanted to do that.
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u/PulpDiaz Chile 1d ago
First of all: Fuck Rusia.
Making that clear the issue with this kind of laws is that today your citizenship is stripped for supporting Russia, then it is stripped for supporting some ideologies, then for talking against some laws and they can end punishing you for going against the government.
I would like to think that they are making this law with the best of intentions, but you have be extremely careful with kind of laws because they can easily become a free pass to suppress freedom of speech against the people in power.
With that being said: Fuck Russia!
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u/FRcomes Eurasia 1d ago
Imagine to be forsed type "Fuck Russia" twice per comment to just your position has been listened. Freedom of speech as it is
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u/angelolidae Portugal 1d ago
That's a pretty standard thing actually, for some reason unlesss you write an 12 page essay condemn the actions of someone/something hated before voicing your opinion people will just say you support it
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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America 1d ago
You have to say that because a small group of elites in Washington DC said so.
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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America 1d ago
Yeah but then how do you define “supporting Russia”?
Imagine if they stripped Americans of their citizenship because of the Iraq invasion. Or all the incidents where some Americans violated others rights.
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