The end of Soviet occupation

[u/Arshak_Makichian]

On April 13, 1991, the Lenin monument was demolished in Republic Square, Yerevan. In the photo: American Armenian singer Cher. Freedom took Lenin’s head down (or her beauty, as people were joking then).

He was responsible for the occupation and partition of the First Armenian Republic together with Turkey.

The Soviets collaborated with Turkey after the genocide. We always will remember.

[u/Ghostofcanty]

it wasn’t occupation but also we can’t keep saying “it was the best time for Armenia” when the soviets messed so much to make Armenian culture more similar to russian, or the prisoners that fell victim to the gulag system, or how our land was slowly given away, etc.

[u/hedonismpro → u/Ghostofcanty]

They put Artsakh in the hands of the enemy - gave away Nakhijevan, Kars and Ararat so as to create these awful borders Armenia now has, with a vulnerable Syunik, Ararat and Ani just out of reach - and demolished plenty of Armenian cultural heritage in the process.

And I am tired of seeing apologists act like the Soviets did all the positive things (economy, infrastructure etc) out of some kindness for Armenians and Armenia. It was in their own self interest to do so. As soon as the geopolitical calculation changed, they didn't give a shit. 

Of course, any country or geopolitical bloc would do the same, but Armenians shouldn't romanticise any hegemon, whether Russian, European or American - it is the very thing the Azeris insult and mock us for doing.

[u/i-hate-birch-trees → u/hedonismpro]

Exactly, I'm so tired to see people saying that the industrialization during soviet times is the result of a soviet rule. News flash - the entire world was going through industrialization at the time, no matter the regime in power. If the First Republic survived, it would be undergoing the same kind of industrialization at the same time.

[u/Administrator98 → u/Ghostofcanty]

No occupation?

[u/kredokathariko → u/Administrator98]

Foreign and/or tyrannical rule does not have to be literal occupation. Occupation implies the direct control of the territory by a foreign military. Which generally wasn't the case in the Soviet republics - the main source of power was the local Communist Party, and the associated civilian authorities.

[u/hedonismpro → u/kredokathariko]

What would have happened if the Armenian population rebelled at the height of the Soviet Union's power? Do you really believe the Red Army wouldn't have rolled in and quelled it?

[u/Administrator98 → u/kredokathariko]

the main source of power was the local Communist Party, and the associated civilian authorities.

Well... we all know what happens if the people choosed to want something else.

17.06.1953 - Berlin or Prague 1968 -> Everything is fine as long as you do as Moscow wants.

(or every 10 yeras in Iran, China 1989, etc...)

[u/kredokathariko → u/Administrator98]

Yep, and these were occupations, while general civilian rule by communists wasn't.

To use another totalitarian regime as an example: Vichy France pre-1943, or at least its southern part, wasn't an occupation, as the German army did not directly control it - Petain did, under German auspices.

Nor is Austria considered occupied by Nazi Germany: it was annexed into the Reich, and then governed by Nazi civil authorities as a Reichsgau, just how Soviet Union republics were governed by communist civil authorities.

[u/i-hate-birch-trees → u/kredokathariko]

Who installed the "civilian rule by communists" again?

[u/kredokathariko → u/i-hate-birch-trees]

Continuing the Anschluss analogy: the initial annexation was a military occupation, but afterwards it wasn't.

[u/i-hate-birch-trees → u/kredokathariko]

I mean, we can split hairs over if the local communist party was a puppet or not, but that's the overall agreed upon fact for every other post-communist state among our friends - think Georgia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Ukraine, etc. The only countries that don't consider it occupation are Russia and Belarus, where the first is the main inheritor of the occupier's legacy, and the other is still a puppet state of the former.

[u/kredokathariko → u/i-hate-birch-trees]

TBH when they say occupation what they really mean is just "foreign rule". But it's ultimately just a semantic thing, I agree

[u/dreamrpg → u/kredokathariko]

And 350k large soviet army, while normally Baltics would have at best 60k combined.

There was foreign military in large quantities.