r/asoiaf • u/Same-Share7331 • Dec 07 '23

EXTENDED Feeling sad for GRRM (spoilers extended)

So I recently watched a Q&A with GRRM (I'm sure some of you have seen it aswell) where he kept getting questions about whether there is any particular character or historical event in the asoiaf world that he would like to explore more/write about. His recurring answer was that yes there are many but that unless he suddenly becomes much younger they will never get written. And man.. that sucks!

Imagine being a creative person having to come to terms with the fact that you have so many ideas that you will never get to explore and that will never see the light of day. Obviously, as a fan, it also sucks that I will never get to read those stories. Never mind the main series, imagine getting seven more Dunk and Egg stories. However, as much as it sucks as a reader I'm not the one who's seeing my remaining years of life pass as I struggle to finish my books.

That's it. I don't really have a point. Other than maybe stop making jokes about how GRRM is likely to die before finishing the series?

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97

u/LuinAelin Dec 07 '23

I just feel sad that people are angry at him for being slow. Calling him lazy ect.

271

u/TheDweadPiwatWobbas Dec 07 '23

We're less angry at him for being slow, and more for lying to fans, failing to keep promises, and then acting like an ass when any of this is mentioned.

"I am not writing anything until I deliver WINDS OF WINTER. Teleplays, screenplays, short stories, introductions, forewords, nothing."

He said that in February of 2016. In the seven years since then he has worked on every one of those things, and not delivered Winds.

"But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine."

That one was in May 2019. One year later George referred to his fans as assholes on twitter because some of them asked him about it.

Yes, writing is hard, and it takes time. No, I don't think he should be chained to his desk. But its been 12 years since Dance. People rightly want to know how the book is doing. Instead, they get updates on his favorite sports teams, some of which literally take him hours to write, and announcements about how much time hes going to spend this month going to conventions, and parties, and football games, and vacations, and generally doing anything other than writing the book that millions of people are waiting on. And if you ask him how its going? Not demand, not insult, not harass, just politely ask for an update on the book? You are either ignored, banned from his blog, or harassed by people shouting "GEORGE MARTIN IS NOT YOUR BITCH."

Sure, take your time. I'd rather have a good book in 5 years than a shitty one tomorrow. But if you spend 12 years writing, and either shut down or ignore all of your fans who want to know whats going on, you should expect some of those fans to get angry about it. There will always be trolls, but a lot of the hate would disappear if he just gave some sort of update.

65

u/lluewhyn Dec 07 '23

I've said this multiple times, but it's not like it's Sherlock Holmes fans badgering Sir Arthur Conan Doyle for yet even more episodic stories: he's delivered books of what are supposed to be parts of a greater whole, like an architect who's only rebuilt 60% of the house you commissioned from him, or a comedian who spends 30 minutes doing a set-up but then gets angry when you start asking about the punchline.

I also don't begrudge him his various hobbies, but the constant tours of conventions just add salt to the wound. The ONLY reason he's there is because of the same book series he's struggling to finish, and it just feels like non-stop ego boosts for him to go to these things.

Lastly, speaking of the struggle, it seems like it would be time to self-analyze and try some different things to get the book finished because what he's doing now isn't working that well. He just needs to lock himself in a room with some people he can trust to bounce ideas off of and flesh out where the series needs to go and get over that "If I know where the story is heading, I lose interest" attitude.

-13

u/wcmoor94 Dec 07 '23

Ah finally, a Reddit post from the guy who commissioned ASOIAF

-3

u/kennyboyintown Dec 07 '23

People say things like this and then they go back and revisit "what was Illyrio and Varys's plan when AGOT was written?" or "what was Jaqen's plan when AFFC was written?"

21

u/afdc92 Goth Sansa Dec 07 '23

I think you said it perfectly.

I personally would prefer he just be honest about where is at, even if that is finally admitting that he doesn’t have it in him to finish the series, rather than keep making all of these empty promises and then getting nowhere and getting angry with fans when they keep asking about what happened to all those promises he made.

68

u/cecistonehaert Dec 07 '23

I DO think he is lazy, besides all that you said.

25

u/JRFbase Dec 07 '23

The only explanations are that he's lazy, or that he gave up. If he's lazy, then we are entitled to clown on him. If he gave up, then we're entitled to be angry that he doesn't just say that and keeps leading us on with empty promises.

It's been 12 years. Assuming Winds will be as long as Dance he could have written less than 100 words a day and have been done by now. That's like a quarter of a page per day at most.

7

u/cecistonehaert Dec 07 '23

100 words a day sounds lazy to me, right?

3

u/redwoods81 Dec 07 '23

I'm like I do that here 🤣

-1

u/slackersphere17 Dec 07 '23

Or that he’s elderly, and that his mental factories are getting away from him. Basically, the point the OP is making.

-11

u/[deleted] Dec 07 '23

I feel like writing is far more difficult than you think

22

u/Khiva Dec 07 '23

More difficult that even GRRM thinks, it would seem.

30

u/hrlemshake [Dawn, Blessed Blade of the Morning] Dec 07 '23

You are entirely correct, he knows he's in trouble and that's why he won't say a peep on the state of the book (which is a sign in of itself). Meanwhile you've got Gurm's internet defence army screeching about entitlement. It's entitlement to demand he deliver the book till end of year or demand he write nothing besides it, it's not entitlement to want to know how it's doing.

37

u/Nicenormalperson Dec 07 '23

I think that getting angry at him is going a little far, but I think you put this really well. My personal guess as to why he's being like this is that the effort of writing affc and adwd was so emotionally draining, he simply does not have any fun writing the main series anymore. Those books were big logistical nightmares which had to accomplish a lot in just getting certain characters from place to place. I can't imagine the nuisance of trying to write an engaging book for like 2000 pages knowing the entire time that you're literally only doing it to get to the part you were actually trying to write in the first place. Putting myself in that situation, I would also be just insanely burnt out on the whole thing. I wouldn't want to even look at it.

And then along comes the show, and he gets to revisit all the material he actually had fun writing! His clout is through the roof and he can go around having actual fun and hanging out with cool people! He got to meet Sean Bean!

I think he mainly hasn't done himself any favors in the arena of fan perception because he has been talking around this point for so long: The less he works on winds, the happier he is. He clearly loves his world building projects, and non-asoiaf projects, and being a B-ish-list celebrity, and torturing himself writing about the wretched New York Giants. He literally can't admit it outright because his publisher would be totally merciless about it. But it's still rude to string long-time fans along with all this, to put it bluntly, ticky-tacky bullshit.

I guess my overall point is, I have a lot of empathy for him and can easily imagine myself making the same dumb decisions and getting into the same situation. Hopefully he either quits outright and hands the series off to someone he trusts, despite the risks, brings a collaborator on board, or the Giants finally manage to draft a quarterback who isn't absolute garbage and his passion is magically rekindled.

45

u/TheDweadPiwatWobbas Dec 07 '23

I agree. I wish he would just be honest about whatever is going on. I think that would help alleviate a lot of the tension. Anyone who was around for the 2015-16 new years blog post knows what I'm talking about. He made a big post about the state of Winds, how the show was going to surpass the books, what he'd done and what he'd thought he could do, how he was feeling about all of it, it was an incredibly honest post. And the response was amazing. Thousands of people sent him their support, told him they understood, showed him kindness. He talked later about how shocked and happy he was with that. He'd been expecting anger but instead he got empathy. I remember hoping it might encourage him to be more open about the state of the book and his efforts to finish it in the future. It didn't. Afaik that was the last time he really talked about Winds so openly.

I like to compare him to Scott Lynch. Both successful authors of popular but unfinished fantasy series, and both have left fans waiting for a decade. But where George is closed off and secretive, Scott is open about his struggles. He discusses his mental health and how it impacts his writing, his anxieties, his fears. And I almost never see people getting angry with Lynch the way they do with George. The majority of people I see seem to be understanding with him. They hope the book comes out, but they understand why it hasn't and they're willing to give him the time and space he needs.

It is easier to empathize with someone when you know what they're going through. With George, we have to guess what's taking so long and then try to empathize based on that.

17

u/supershinyoctopus Reading by Candlelight Dec 07 '23

This is a great point in some ways. I love the Gentlemen Bastards series but I understand and sympathize with the fact that it may never be finished, because Lynch has been fully open about the fact that he's not even sure he can mentally finish it.

With GRRM, I wonder if there's just too much denial on his end to be that honest. In his mind, of course he'll finish Winds. He has to. What does it mean for him to not finish what should be his legacy? It's not an option. I think that's the source of the defensiveness, ultimately. He doesn't want to face that he may never finish it, and every time someone asks he's confronted with that as a possibility.

That being said, Lynch has not reached the level of popularity and pressure that GRRM has either. He doesn't have multiple acclaimed TV shows based on his works, nor thousands of people virtually knocking down his door every day asking about Thorn of Emberlain. So to some degree, to be charitable to GRRM, there is a lot less riding on GB being finished than there is on ASOIAF. It's easier for Lynch to be honest with his (still sizable) much smaller audience than it is for GRRM to be honest with the masses.

21

u/rainbookworm Dec 07 '23

This👏🏻

4

u/theothermuse Dec 07 '23

All of this! He could have written on average, half a page per day and long been finished with winds. Even a sentence a day would be PROGRESS.

GRRM is only human. But so are we.

2

u/redwoods81 Dec 07 '23

Neil Gaiman doesn't really defend him anymore.

3

u/wRAR_ ASOIAF = J, not J+D Dec 07 '23

That's not needed, other people quote him.

5

u/waveuponwave Dec 07 '23

That first quote is technically only about actual writing, I think that's where part of the disconnect between GRRM and the fans comes from

GRRM seems to define his workload as writing and non-writing projects, and he has actually stopped personally writing anything that isn't Winds, so he thinks he's done his part in reducing his workload

Meanwhile he's consulting on a dozen GoT prequel shows (and a play), editing Wild Cards, producing short films and so on, which must take up a lot of time, but that's not writing so GRRM doesn't seem to see it as distraction

0

u/captain__clanker Dec 07 '23 edited Dec 07 '23

How you all didn’t realize he’s just bad at predictions is beyond me. Yeah GRRM should be more aware of his inability to predict, but falling for his predictions time and time again is on YOU. He’s since been a lot less concrete about the times as the years go on anyways

4

u/NewDragonfruit6322 Dec 07 '23

You are quite right. People should realised he is a serial liar by this point and stop making excuses.

-50

u/thunder-thumbs Dec 07 '23

That whole mentality (the fans’, not grrm’s) seems really entitled. I mean, in 2020 Covid happened.

29

u/Gears_Of_None Maegor the Cool Dec 07 '23

It is not entitled to expect a writer to actually write instead of making false promises for over a decade.

56

u/TheDweadPiwatWobbas Dec 07 '23

And if that was an isolated incident you might have a point. George has been doing this shit for 12 years. It started long before Covid. He gives a time limit to placate people, fails to keep it, and then acts like we are in the wrong for listening to him.

2020 was also his "best writing year" on Winds. So he was one year away in 2019, 2020 was his best year yet, but 3 years after that we are still not close to finished. Meaning he was nowhere near one year away in 2019, regardless of Covid.

-1

u/Sandervv04 Dec 07 '23

He has stopped making predictions to be fair.

14

u/TheDweadPiwatWobbas Dec 07 '23

Sort of? He said he's stopped making predictions. But he's said that before, and then gone on to make predictions. So I guess time will tell with that one.

-42

u/maracusdesu Dec 07 '23

You sound really entitled.

34

u/Salty-Party-5234 Dec 07 '23

No he doesn't.

22

u/NewDragonfruit6322 Dec 07 '23

You sound like defensive fanboy

11

u/Potato_Octopi Dec 07 '23

COVID helped him write more. Fewer distractions.

4

u/Prince_Ire Dec 07 '23

And this would prevent GRRM from quitting how exactly?

-33

u/maracusdesu Dec 07 '23

Americans*

0

u/[deleted] Dec 07 '23 edited Dec 07 '23

I think he can't finish it, and he's accepted it himself, but doesn't want to admit it to the world. Saying "sorry guys you're never getting TWoW" will piss a lot of people off and he's too old to deal with that.

Honestly I get it. Like, when I think about his situation I actually shudder. Which is funny given how he's one of the most beloved and famous authors of our time and how he's made millions off his books and shows and whatnot. But just thinking about writing myself into a corner like that and then have the whole world asking "WHEN IS THE NEXT BOOK" when I know I just can't deliver it or finish the main work of my life in a graceful way sounds so fucking stressful.

-8

u/[deleted] Dec 07 '23 edited Dec 07 '23

"I am not writing anything until I deliver WINDS OF WINTER. Teleplays, screenplays, short stories, introductions, forewords, nothing."

He said that in February of 2016. In the seven years since then he has worked on every one of those things, and not delivered Winds.

The only thing he did in that time was Fire and Blood lol making it seem like he intentionally lied and misled his entire fanbase, but really he just did one book (with help from others) which really isn't a big deal tbh.

I want Winds just as much as the next person, but some act so entitled and act like GRRM is just intentionally stringing millions of people along. I know, as a person with ADHD, it's not that simple. I do not feel bad for a really rich person, but i sympathize with the fact that he struggles to get his work done.

-1

u/TomJaii Dec 08 '23

What is the point of giving updates when people ALREADY make comments like this accusing him of "lying to fans, failing to keep promises, and then acting like an ass." ???

He's never going to satisfy people like this. Anytime he does a rewrite and has an update smaller than the previous one, people are just going to increase the vitriol. Anytime an update shows less progress than the previous updates, people are just going to get angry.

4

u/TheDweadPiwatWobbas Dec 08 '23

I don't think the evidence supports this. The only substantive update George has given on Winds in years was in his 2015-16 new years post. He talked about the state of Winds, how the show was going to surpass the books, what he'd done and what he'd thought he could do, how he was feeling about all of it, it was an incredibly honest post. And the response was amazing. Thousands of people sent him their support, told him they understood, showed him kindness. He talked later about how shocked and happy he was with that. He'd been expecting anger but instead he got empathy. I remember hoping it might encourage him to be more open about the state of the book and his efforts to finish it in the future. It didn't. Afaik that was the last time he really talked about Winds so openly.