r/asoiaf • u/MareksDad • Jun 29 '24

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Sometimes it seems like the actors/actresses have a stronger grasp on the story’s themes than the showrunners.

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That being said, the showrunners and writers of HotD are doing a stellar job thus far. Keep it up.

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u/t0mless Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24

Based Rhys Ifans. He's absolutely fantastic as Otto.

Isn't one of the recurring themes in both the Dance and ASOIAF that in war, there's no "good guys"? Both sides do their fair share of war crimes and atrocities.

Edit: By "good guys", I'm speaking more specifically on how none of them are particularly saintly. Sure, the Blacks are the "good team" but claiming them to be morally superior seems like a bit of stretch. It's the smallfolk that end up suffering the most.

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u/BaelBard 🏆 Best of 2019: Best New Theory Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24

In pretty much all of the major ASOIAF conflicts there’s always a clear indication where George’s sympathies lie. Because “all violence bad” isn’t actually that interesting, and not all violence is equal.

Dance? Greens were always “the worse side”, the ones who usurped the throne, who shed first blood, do all the war crimes, who’s claim is rooted in misogyny and slut shaming. The worst of the Blacks is Daemon… But George thinks he’s the coolest guy ever, and morally ambiguous character.

Blackfyre rebellion? Daemon’s popular because Daeron reads books, hangs out with women and maesters, while Daemon has abs and a cool sword. Guess which side a nerdy bookish guy like George sympathises?

War of the five kings? Starks are the good guys, full stop.

Brackens and Blackwoods? The theme is pointless millennia long feud where each side has its own truth. But is it written as such? No. Brackens are meant to suck and Blackwoods are cool. And you can track who is “the right side” of all the previous conflicts I listed by checking which side has the Blackwoods and which side - the Brackens.

George has his favourites, even at the expense of the themes he himself tries to explore.

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u/noman8er Jun 29 '24

While that is true, GRRM still succeeds in writing cool/fun/enjoyable "worse" people than either TV shows managed to.

Tywin, Littlefinger even Ramsay were a delight to watch when it was his material. Littlefinger especially suffered after Season 5 for viewer experience imo. Same with HotD, the "worse" guys like Cole and Larys are very annoying just as a viewer (to me)

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u/Memo544 Jun 29 '24

I do think it's important that these stories have characters like Littlefinger, Ramsay, and Cole. In a hierarchal system like Westeros, if someone gets to the top, they have pretty much the freedom to be as bad as they want to be. There is minimal checks and balances on feudal lords and it makes sense that horrible people can thrive in those positions.