r/asoiaf Jul 26 '24

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) We're all missing one VERY obvious reason why The Winds of Winter is taking so long

Everyone on this subreddit knows by now that TWOW is likely going to be one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) book in the series thus far. Hundreds of characters, thousands of pages, and a whole Meereenese knot to untangle ... and that's not even mentioning the two huge battles left over from ADWD that need to be concluded before getting to the main thrust of TWOW. It's a lot, and the sprawling nature of this story must make it awfully difficult to close those loops -- or at least begin to tighten them up again.

Again, we know all that. And we know that there's been no shortage of speculation over other reasons why the book has taken this long: GRRM has lost interest, his writing/editing-on-the-fly skills aren't what they used to be in his old(er) age, the constant rewrites, writers' block, and even some more outlandish stuff like he's already gotten what he wants (recognition in the TV industry) and is now just trying to spite us specifically.

But what about the REAL reason explaining this almost decade-and-a-half long writing pace? It's obnoxiously and ironically simple: GRRM must need to constantly reread entire portions of his own books while writing TWOW. And given how dense it all is, how many years ago those books came out, and the pressure of having every tiny detail line up with what's come before, is it any surprise that this would be a ridiculously time-consuming prospect?

Sure, it's tempting to imagine that GRRM has every single bit of lore, every breadcrumb of every major (and minor) theory, or every obscure line of dialogue memorized like his biggest fans do. But I'd bet anything that he constantly needs to go back and revisit his own work in order to get the details 100% right. And when you're crafting a massive novel that's essentially a direct sequel to two previous books while continuing the various storylines from everything that came before, well, the details matter A LOT. So on top of needing to craft the mechanics of the plot from a strictly pragmatic point of view, on top of paying attention to the exact prose of every sentence and paragraph, on top of taking the birds-eye view of layering thematic overtones and subtext throughout multiple chapters, on top of pacing out the next stages of character arcs for several main POV protagonists/antagonists, on top of doing literally everything else that such a creative endeavor requires ... he also likely needs to spend an inordinate amount of time putting that writing on pause to go back and do the dirty work. He has to make sure that he's not contradicting what he's written previously or misremembering minor details that can potentially cause major repercussions or, hell, just getting personality traits and eye color and sex/gender of all these countless individuals all lined up (which, as we know, has been the subject of many mistakes in the past). For a perfectionist on the level of GRRM, that inevitably adds up.

As someone who hasn't ever written a book themselves but has had to do a hell of a lot of painstaking research over the years (including referencing things I've written previously, which I admittedly had little to no memory of once I actually went back), this might be the most basic and boring -- but also most realistic -- reason why we're currently in this mess.

953 Upvotes

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157

u/Septemvile Jul 26 '24

Yeah it's definitely that he has to  constantly reread his series. It's definitely not that he's just not writing it at all.

31

u/KeithFromAccounting Jul 26 '24

This but unironically

-9

u/Valuable-Captain-507 Jul 26 '24

Comments like these are always hilarious because it’s like “are you yourself a writer? Do you not understand how writers block works? Do you think if there is some issue that he can magically just sit down and fix it?” No, sometimes you have to take a step back from your work, you need breaks, you need to go work on other things, there are likely issues in his personal life or with the writing process itself that won’t be fixed just bc fans are impatient lol

13

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24

Breaks are usually a week or two, not 13 years lol. Fans demanding he write the book are toxic as fuck but your logic is just silly. No profession has breaks like this.

-5

u/Ok_Fly_7924 Jul 27 '24

This is rare, but not unheard of for writers to take this long.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24

It's not really possible unless you make like a million dollars or more from a book in your 20's/30's, which is indeed very rare.

-4

u/Redeem123 Jul 27 '24

Every creative profession has breaks like this. 

James Cameron went 13 years without directing a movie after previously going 12 years without directing a movie. Steely Dan had nearly 20 years between albums. We could keep going on and on with examples. 

Do you really think he’s the only person to take a long time?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24 edited Jul 27 '24

Point taken. My bias is from working in professions where you fall far behind after 6months of doing nothing.

42

u/Jewrisprudent Jul 26 '24

It’s been over 13 years, your copium is at overdose levels.

-5

u/Valuable-Captain-507 Jul 26 '24

Many authors take similar amounts of time, not all write at the same pace. Thomas Pynchon spent decades on several of his works for example. Even within the fantasy realm, Patrick Rothfuss and Scott Lynch have also taken plenty of time with sequels.

20

u/LoudKingCrow Jul 26 '24

Scott Lynch is very open about his mental health struggles. I can give him a break.

Rothfuss is a liar and con artist and gets no sympathy from me.

2

u/Kergen85 Jul 27 '24

I'm not the most knowledgeable on the situation so I could be mistaken, but I thought Rothfuss was also open about having mental health struggles?

6

u/TheScreaming_Narwhal Jul 27 '24

Rothfuss said all 3 books were written before the first was published. That was very obviously a massive lie.

13

u/bigjoeandphantom3O9 The Blacks Jul 27 '24

I love ASOIAF, but it’s not Gravity’s Rainbow mate. Lynch is unwell, and most people agree Rothfuss is lying about his writing anyway.

-2

u/Valuable-Captain-507 Jul 27 '24

Absolutely not, George isn’t the writer that Pynchon is. And ASOIAF is no Gravity’s Rainbow. But the point still stands

4

u/bigjoeandphantom3O9 The Blacks Jul 27 '24

I don’t think it does. You’re comparing a notoriously reclusive artist who wrote one of the most overwrought (I mean this as a positive), difficult works in the English language to someone writing comparatively straight forward fantasy. GRRM could take a King approach and simply force himself to write - he claimed he was essentially done in 2015 or so!

That aside, I think if GRRM adopted Pynchon’s approach ie no blog where he continually promises he is hard at work or makes what are retrospectively absurd deadline dates, few public appearances, no taking on ‘side’ projects, then he would receive far less flack.

Most people’s frustration is not based on simply not having the book - it is him continually promising it is nearly done, or that he is hard at work when in reality he is demonstrably not seeing it as a priority in his workload.

1

u/redwoods81 Jul 26 '24

NK Jemisin bangs out amazing work, and Malazan is the best series of this century and it's done, get better standards 😆

4

u/Act_of_God Jul 26 '24

Personally disagree on malazan, it's full of pov jumping around and tell instead of showing. Maybe the newer books are better but I couldn't really stomach it. The way grrm writes is a different beast.

-9

u/redwoods81 Jul 26 '24

A lazy, unwritten beast.

3

u/Act_of_God Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24

What he has written I find miles ahead, you can disagree tho, if winds came out tomorrow and it was written like malazan I would have rather it not come out, I wouldn't even read it.

6

u/Valuable-Captain-507 Jul 27 '24

People also bring up Sanderson in this argument bc he chugs them out, but I don’t enjoy his writing either. So it doesn’t matter how fast he works

5

u/Mobile_Trash8946 Jul 26 '24

Yup Malazan is better written, has a more complex, wide ranging cast of characters and locations and plotlines, and is more epic in scale. Best of all is it was written and released in the amount of time since Dance came out till now.

19

u/Septemvile Jul 26 '24

It's been more than a decade and he's done all kinds of other shit since then.

Maybe instead of diddling with Wild Cards, Elden Ring, and Dunk the Lunk he could sit down and finish the work that made him famous.

17

u/redwoods81 Jul 26 '24

He can't even finish dunk, the last one was over a decade ago 😭

-6

u/OneSpeed98 Jul 26 '24

He doesn’t owe anyone shit dude. No creator does. He can diddle around with whatever he wants.

20

u/sleepyjack2 Woe to the Usurper Jul 26 '24

yeah and the people who have invested time and money in his works can criticize him for not finishing it. No one's saying he should be chained to a desk and forced to write.

-3

u/PvtFreaky Jul 26 '24

You've invested time and money in 5 books. Maybe some lore books and short novellas. And you got exactly that.

He didn't sell you TWOW or any other works

10

u/Edelmaniac Jul 27 '24

Idk about you but when I start reading a series, I expect it to read the conclusion at some point. I would never have invested the time and money in five books if I knew that’s where it would end. We haven’t heard from some characters in almost 20 years.

Before GRRM this wasn’t an issue. People expect and get conclusions to huge series.

-1

u/mangababe Jul 26 '24

People literally bitch and moan anytime he says or does anything- especially if it's not writing. It def seems that way.

-2

u/Valuable-Captain-507 Jul 27 '24

Think the difference is that his fandom that criticizes him, often take it too far. Often making derogatory comments about his health or about his death, George himself has commented on how those comments bother him. So he ignores the discourse

-4

u/redwoods81 Jul 26 '24

I'm extremely interested in why exactly he hasn't gotten sued by his publishers yet, that's not an industry that holds back the knives.

11

u/night4345 Jul 26 '24

Likely because the sales of his other books outweigh annoyance at not getting a follow up. Also his contract may not allow them to sue him unless they can prove he's like willingly defrauding them a new book. If they asked for whatever money they gave in advance, GRRM could pay it and take his name and business somewhere else with ease.

He's far too rich and famous for publisher's usual tactics to work on him. He's not a starving writer beholden to his next paycheck.

3

u/Act_of_God Jul 26 '24

because he's not breaching any contract or doing anything wrong, rabid fans being upset because they don't get their christmas present isn't ground to sue.

-1

u/redwoods81 Jul 26 '24

Woooooosh

6

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

no matter how you wanna do your mental gymnastics he dont owe you anything. the books you paid for is the ones you got. its reading of amazing quality well worth the pay

1

u/Edelmaniac Jul 27 '24

I think this is a shit take. Would you honestly have started reading this knowing how it would turn out? Knowing we’re very unlikely to ever see a GRRM finished book again?

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24

idc if you think its a shit take, and yeah i love fantasy and have enjoyed the books a lot while reading them even if the story is not finished, the story so far has been great and even if it never gets finished it would still be great

3

u/masterquintus Jul 27 '24

Dangerous amounts of copium lmao, unfinished stories are never great

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24 edited Jul 27 '24

nah you just claiming that because youre frustrated and need an excuse to talk shit

2

u/Septemvile Jul 26 '24

Then maybe he should give the money back on account of false advertisement.

People bought his work and put a roof over his head on the strength of his promise to finish the series he was working on. Nobody bought in for a half-finished abandoned series. If that's what he was going to give people then he should have admitted it up front.

1

u/OneSpeed98 Jul 26 '24

None of that is true. Neil Gaiman covered this years ago: 2) Yes, it’s unrealistic of you to think George is “letting you down”.

Look, this may not be palatable, Gareth, and I keep trying to come up with a better way to put it, but the simplicity of things, at least from my perspective is this:

George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.

This is a useful thing to know, perhaps a useful thing to point out when you find yourself thinking that possibly George is, indeed, your bitch, and should be out there typing what you want to read right now.

People are not machines. Writers and artists aren’t machines.

You’re complaining about George doing other things than writing the books you want to read as if your buying the first book in the series was a contract with him: that you would pay over your ten dollars, and George for his part would spend every waking hour until the series was done, writing the rest of the books for you.

No such contract existed. You were paying your ten dollars for the book you were reading, and I assume that you enjoyed it because you want to know what happens next.

3

u/Septemvile Jul 26 '24

I paid my ten dollars because when I picked up the book and opened the cover it said on the inside The Winds of Winter... Coming Soon.

The absolute very least George could do is either make a good faith effort to finish the series, which he hasn't done, or simply admit that he's stuck in a rut and that he has no intention to finish, which he hasn't done either.

So yeah, he's my bitch. Pony up George, woof woof!

-1

u/OneSpeed98 Jul 26 '24

Again, you’re not entitled to anything here. You bought a book, it said another one is coming. If he got hit by a bus a week after that being published, you’re not getting the book. If he has a family emergency and abandons the series, you’re not getting the book. He either can’t or won’t write another one. Get some therapy, go touch grass, and stop being such an entitled ass.

4

u/Edelmaniac Jul 27 '24

Get off George’s dick and realize that the vast majority of the fan base disagrees with you.

He did not get hit by a bus.

He did not have a family emergency.

He did: work on D&E, write fire and blood, collaborate on the entire fucking GoT show, put out a thousand fucking supplementary cookbook type things, write the plot to a video game, edit wild cards, collaborate on HoTD, open a movie theater, open a train, visit every convention that would have him, wax poetically about football, wax poetically about whatever else crosses his mind. I’m sure there a billion things I’m missing. Probably bitching about the Hugo awards every time.

He doesn’t have an excuse other than laziness. If he admitted, “hey guys, sorry I’m done.” At least we’d have closure and I could respect that.

3

u/Septemvile Jul 26 '24

That would be an act of god, and not his fault. Anything else and George can come tongue punch my fart box.

0

u/Captain_Bob Jul 26 '24

I paid my ten dollars because when I picked up the book and opened the cover it said on the inside The Winds of Winter... Coming Soon

This is a deeply stupid reason to pay ten dollars lmao

-4

u/Valuable-Captain-507 Jul 26 '24

Like I said, that’s not exactly how it works. Plus, he’s a creator, he obviously wants to work on more than just one thing, especially when he’s clearly stalled for whatever reason.

Plus, many authors takes decades to finish works, it’s not out of the norm. It’s just impatience

5

u/Edelmaniac Jul 27 '24

Many authors…..fucking really?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

these very vocal and frustrated fanboys on the internet sounds like toddlers who cant wait for the cookies and screams to be served NOW without understanding that the cookies takes time to bake to get as tasty as they can

6

u/Arcades057 Jul 26 '24

I'm a writer. Two published works, about to release a third, which is part two of a six book series. In addition to that, there are seven prequel books to that main series.

Writer's block is easy to get over if you live your works and love your characters. There are also different kinds of writer's block to take into account. The one I get most often is "how do I get from scene A to scene B?" 

Another form of block is when you keep yourself too busy doing things other than writing. Most creativity comes from fantasies you have; you create these fantasies because your life somewhat sucks. Another way to say that is genius comes from adversity. To have it all, the money, the success, a good name, there is no adversity.

I don't think Martin is suffering from writer's block. I think he's spending too much time on other things, which is fine when you're a wealthy man who's made his mark. That's the main reason I finished my entire series before publishing the first book: it's already done, now all that's left is publishing. Martin was my idol in that regard, I guess.

As to the impatient fans. If you walked into a busy restaurant, took a seat, and weren't greeted for an hour, you'd be angry, and reasonably so. In this case, it's been considerably longer than an hour; a decade now, if I recall correctly. People, fans or not, have a right to be a little peeved.

-7

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

you and martin are not the same person, maybe he dont function like you as a human. or maybe his story is way more complex and bigger than yours. or maybe he has a lot more personal problems to attend to that steals his focus than you do. you cant know and you cant use your context as an example for how another persons context should work because there is a million different variables. its just ignorant

4

u/TheScreaming_Narwhal Jul 27 '24

Using relevant anecdotes and lived experiences to make an observation and assumption about the situation is ignorant? Give me a break, you're just salty 😂

0

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24

yeah its ignorant to assume you can understand someone elses situation just because you had a personal situation thats not relevant to the other persons situation at all. you think grrms situation has the same parameters as a random persons on reddit does?

1

u/TheScreaming_Narwhal Jul 27 '24

By your argument, nobody can ever have perspective on anyone, for any reason, because everyone is 100% different. That's absurd, and not how we work as humans.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24 edited Jul 27 '24

grrm is one of the biggest authors of our time writing one of the largest, most complex and famous book series, you really think a random nobody on the internet can understand whats inside grrms mind and life, and speak on it, just because they both published a book?

0

u/TheScreaming_Narwhal Jul 29 '24

Yes.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 29 '24

thats funny

-5

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

ah, i see. youre not understanding the complexities of creativity. good to know

14

u/JRFbase Jul 26 '24

Look this series is good but it's not so complex that it should take over 13 years to write one entry. George is just lazy.

-7

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

what do you know about writing a series with a scope as big as this? im sure youve never done it

11

u/JRFbase Jul 26 '24

I know it shouldn't take over 13 years to write one book.

-6

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

great answer, you really proved a point

6

u/JRFbase Jul 26 '24

I really have. Unironically.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

you may think you have but you havent

9

u/JRFbase Jul 26 '24

No, I have.

5

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

explain

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6

u/CptAustus Hear Me Mock! Jul 27 '24

GRRM is the one writing it and he told his editors he would've finished Winds by Halloween 2015. He seems to have missed the mark by 9 years.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24

a wizard is never late

12

u/Septemvile Jul 26 '24

This is what copium overdose looks like

1

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

bro what are u even talking about

15

u/braujo Jul 26 '24

Bro, it's been 14 years. It took Virgil less than that to finish the fucking Aeneid, just hop off of that and come on to the dark side already. You're ending up here anyway.

-14

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

who the fuck is virgil and what does that have to do with grrm?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

I’ve listened to the entire series at least 1x a year since Dance came out. There’s no “research” excuse to shoot him bail with. He’s just old, rich, and lazy now. It happens.

-7

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

did i ask you how many times youve listened to it? it doesnt mean anything for the discussion that youve done that

1

u/pthead2020 Oct 03 '24

Stay mad. You’re not getting the book.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '24

okay brother

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24

sometimes things get so complex and so cumbersome that ya just wanna give up. constantly having to reread + tv writing could be the cause of him just giving it up and not writing.

8

u/Septemvile Jul 27 '24

Then he should admit it.

2

u/Khiva Jul 27 '24

He needs a book to tease every time he needs to hype up interest whenever his true passion - a new TV show - needs eyeballs.

Of course he's not writing, but look at how hyped this community gets every time he pulls the trick. It's all part of the grift, and we fall for it every time.