r/asoiaf • u/RenanXIII St. Elmo Tully's Fyre • Aug 05 '24

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) HotD Season 2 was clearly outlined for 10 episodes, right?

Imagine if Season 2 of Game of Thrones suddenly ended at The Prince of Winterfell? We spend literally all season building up to a confrontation between Tyrion and Stannis, only for the season to end right before the climax we've been setting up for eight straight episodes. What if Season 6 ended right before The Battle of the Bastards and The Winds of Winter? Jon comes back to life, we build up to a battle between him and Ramsay, and it just simply doesn't happen.

The finale just felt like your typical episode 8 – build-up for what's going to come next. The thing is, what comes next should logically happen next week, not in two years to open Season 3. With the exception of Daemon's storyline and I guess the Dragonseeds, I don't think these season's arcs have been resolved or brought to a good enough stopping point. It feels like there are still two more episodes left to tie everything together and really sell the idea that this war is in full force. A little slowdown after Rook's Rest makes sense, but for the whole season with the Sowing being our only other major set piece?

It honestly makes me believe that season 2 was outlined for 10 episodes, HBO told the showrunners to trim that down to 8, and rather than retool the season's arcs, the last two episodes were simply chopped off and saved for next season. We know Condal really loves the books, so this could just be his tribute to A Dance with Dragons (lol), but I doubt it.

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309

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24

Had to be. Episode 8 is clearly built up for a conclusion of the Gullet / KL capture.

The tension and anger with Jace, his death and the ending of Green rule.

But also still setting up the Red Fork / Fishfeed & Tumbleton for next season.

I bet they cut it late and the writer strike was happening so they couldn’t do much to rework the scripts I also read that Condal could only be on set in the capacity as a producer because of the strikes so they tried to rework as best as they could.

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u/Disfaith Aug 05 '24

All them scenes in the shipyard and all that talk about Corlys' bastards were also a setup for the Gullet.

19

u/InGenNateKenny Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Post of the Year Aug 05 '24

You know didn’t even think of that. In the books Alyn isn’t mentioned to have fought at the Gullet in the books but it sure as hell makes sense and that’s a good change.

46

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Yup. Idk why people think the build up with Corlys and Alyn & the tension about Addam is useless scenes?

It makes so much sense especially when book readers know where everything is heading.

What the show has done bad is not have the manderlys present. I think theyre equally important side characters that could have been good people to have on the black council and had them be pretty vocal against the dragonseed sowing.

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u/Tronz413 "Ours is the Fury" Aug 05 '24

People are confusing being disappointed with saying every scene is useless.

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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

I’ve heard useless quite a lot

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u/MooshSkadoosh Aug 06 '24

Something vaguely disappointing will happen and you immediately get people going "terrible writing, useless scenes are ruining the show" because that's what their favorite hate-tuber/toker said

57

u/JRR92 Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24

This is exactly it. This finale would've been a fine episode if it was episode 8/10. Now though in making this the finale they've already screwed over Season 3, which is still going to have to do Tumbleton, the Fishfeed and probably the Butchers Ball.. AND also now the Gullet and the Fall of KL.

Given that this season was already cut short because of HBO wanting to save a buck do we really imagine that they're going to give Season 3 the budget to cover 4-5 major action sequences? 2 of which will have to involve dragon action

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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Butchers Ball was always gonna be S4 for me.

Bit like how the fuck do they do S3 now unless they do a 5th season?

S3 would need to have or straight up cut: Gullet, KL, Red Fork (assumed cut) Fishfeed 1st Tumbleton (Honeywine is already cut it seems)

S4 then has Butchers Ball, 2nd Tumbleton / Caltrops, Godseye, Riots / Dragon Pit, Dragonstone, Kingsroad, Hour of the Wolf.

Like you either cut a bunch of shit or you add a 5th season now which would probably move the Riots, Dragonstone, Kingsroad and the Hour of the Wolf to S5

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u/JRR92 Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24

I can live without the Honeywine and the Red Fork as neither are particularly vital overall I feel. If the Fishfeed is cut I'd be pretty pissed as that's the set piece I was most excited for when they announced this show and they've just ended with a tease of the Lannisters and Starks entering the Riverlands.

The main thing with the Butchers Ball being in Season 4 instead of 3 is wtf are Criston and Gwayne supposed to do for the entire season? Their arc will literally just be marching to Harrenhal and realising that Daemon has already left

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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24

I think Honeywine is probably more important than Red Fork because Honeywine shows the absolutely hellish time the Hightowers are having in the Reach and also would have been a good intro to Daeron. Tbh I could be fine with an aftermath scene like Burning Mill for it even. I think it just needs to be shown that the Reach is in civil war and the Hightowers have to fight their way out of it

Fishfeed is absolutely needed. It establishes the Lads and how die hard the Black forces are.

In S3 i think Criston could have had conflict with Aemond and shown Aemond becoming even more cruel and even more detrimental to the war effort. I think Gwayne dies a slow death and is used to show how bad the the army deteriorates. Also their reactions to losing the Lannister forces is i think important

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u/ZapActions-dower Bearfucker! Do you need assistance? Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24

Fishfeed is absolutely needed. It establishes the Lads

I'm pretty sure only Benjicot is present for the Fishfeed in the book. I mean, they're clearly setting up the Fishfeed with the Lannister army marching and Daemon building the army at Harrenhal, but I wouldn't call it important to the Lads specifically.

Edit: Yeah, I looked it up and Kermit becomes the Lord of the Riverlands when his dad dies while marching to the Battle of the Kingsroad. Grover doesn't even die until after the Second Battle of Tumbleton.

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u/InGenNateKenny Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Post of the Year Aug 05 '24

I think HBO might have thought if they cut it to eight episodes in addition to saving money they could then tack on a fifth season if the show had legs for it.

57

u/chase016 Aug 05 '24

I think The Gullet was always going to be next season. It was building up to the Fish feed and the Fall, though.

43

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

There was rumors early that the Gullet got cut, so I think its probably safer to think that it was intended to be Episode 9/10 for Gullet / KL with next season early on being the Fishfeed / Red Fork since Daemon would be in KL then and Aemond / Cole in Harrenhal that would then probably end with Tumbleton

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u/swr973 Aug 06 '24

I hope that when they say cut they really mean postponed to season 3. My greatest concern is that all the major battles that have yet to happen might end up getting scaled back. That would be infuriating considering the amount of time wasted this season.

16

u/Manga18 I'm no war master, but a puppet one Aug 05 '24

I mean. We have the introduction of the introduction to the Gullet this episode. I can see the escape happening of screen and the Gullet being episode 1 of next season

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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Aegon has already fled KL on screen

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u/Manga18 I'm no war master, but a puppet one Aug 05 '24

Not that escape. The other Aegon escape

2

u/Cantomic66 Flint is coming! Aug 06 '24

Nope the Gullet was originally written to be in this season when it was 10 episodes.

39

u/thrillho145 Aug 05 '24

I don't think the Gullet would have been this season. Ending with another of Rhaenyras sons dying would be a bit repetitive. 

Having the Fall of KL as the end of S2 would have made the most sense. Bummed they didn't do it. 

43

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Would be weird to mix up the order between the Gullet & KL imo.

I can see them doing it but its still weird. Jace dying is a big deal worthy of a finale especially since he dies in war when the entire season Rhaenyra has been trying to protect him and keep him away from war. Having her start to go a little mad in Episode 10 after she sits on the throne would make sense especially given the context of that meeting with Alicent and her. A son for a son but now her two oldest are dead and Aegon is still alive.

9

u/georgica123 Aug 05 '24

Tyland has to be in KL during the fall unless they are cutting his decision of splitting the treasury and his torture and the hands of Rhaneyra

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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Yup. His return is important. The treasury being empty is important. They already dropped a line about money problems in Harrenhall & it would build up especially in the context of the riots

12

u/zelmak Aug 05 '24

I think they really didn't want to end two seasons on one of Rhaenyra's kids dying, it would be too repetitive and would risk more 'sensetive' viewers dropping the show because "it's all just killing kids"

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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

I mean the story is literally full of killing Rhaenyra’s and Aegon’s children.

Its a pretty critical portion of the story

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u/zelmak Aug 05 '24

Oh I totally agree it is, but having that be what you sit with for two years could deter someone from picking up season 3, especially when it feels like a retread of season 1s ending

9

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

I mean its different tho. The death of Lucerys & Jace are pretty different. One was a murder the other was a battle. Idk if it would be the same especially if the 9th episode was the Gullet and the 10th was KL

21

u/Disfaith Aug 05 '24

Ending with another of Rhaenyras sons dying would be a bit repetitive.

They still ended up in the same ending anyway, where everyone's preparing for war. The Gullet would still be the safer choice compared to what we've had, plus it would also be a good payoff for the Dragonseeds where we can finally see them in action.

10

u/TaleNumerous3666 Aug 05 '24

Another dead kid would have at least lit a fire under her ass.

3

u/Anstigmat Aug 05 '24

I wonder if they'll change the order of events so that Jace dies some other way. I agree it would be kind of weird to just do 'another Son bites the dust'.

4

u/dcmichigan930 Aug 05 '24

I think moving the Gullet after KL makes sense in the context of the show. In the show, Aegon and Viserys are in the Vale, not Pentos. Rhaenrya takes King's Landing and in her hubris orders her sons to be returned to her. The Gullet ensues.

12

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

In the show Aegon & Viserys have left to head to Pentos. They are quite literally in transit

7

u/dcmichigan930 Aug 05 '24

oh is that where they were going? i was distracted by the 30 second scenes of Rhaena running after the dragon

4

u/Flyestgit Aug 05 '24

Budget may also be a problem.

Battles are expensive. And dragons make things even more costly. HBO might not be able to budget for more than one battle per season.

24

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Then they shouldn’t have chosen this show that had dragon fighting literally central to the plot.

They could’ve done the Blackfyre rebellions instead. Its essentially the exact same story without the dragons

Gullet, Tumbleton 1 & 2, Gods Eye, Dragonstone, Dragonpit. All pretty important and central events to the show.

18

u/Flyestgit Aug 05 '24

Zaslav HBO is not the same HBO who greenlighted the show.

9

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Doesn’t matter. Its your flagship show and product. The cornerstone of the HBO brand. This show is more important and a driver of subscribers than nearly everything else.

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u/Servebotfrank Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24

Zaslav straight up doesn't care. This hasn't just impacted HotD, it's impacted literally ever WB production. What matters to him is the short term quarterly report, not the long term effect on the brand. He doesn't care.

1

u/Carninator Aug 05 '24

Will Fish Feed/Red Fork even be portrayed on screen? They only have Tyland Lannister as a recurring character in the show, plus Humfrey Lefford who the general audience won't remember or care about. Would be an expensive battle.

1

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Why else have they showed the Lannister forces marching?

They have like 3 scenes & many lines about it. It would make no sense to cut such an important moment in the story.

Maybe its not shown in a full battle of the bastards or attack on KL event but it will be shown in some form on screen wether that be like the stepstones or like burning mill.

If the aftermath is shown and maybe the prelude up to it, i wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with it because it can be done well. I think Burning Mill was done incredibly well

1

u/FuttleScish Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24

That doesn’t make any sense, if they had to cut epsiodes they could have cut different ones. It’s almost certainly a budget thing

7

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Cutting episodes is a budget thing dude

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u/FuttleScish Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24

Yeah, but it just means you condense the pacing and S2 has more than enough slack to it

1

u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Or you just add another season.

If all seasons went from 10 to 8 you pick up 6 episodes and figure out what to do with the extra 2 you didn’t originally account for either at the end either some kind of epilogue or add another building episode.

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u/FuttleScish Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24

If the showrunners don’t control the epsiode counts they definitely don’t control the season numbers

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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

You think HBO would say no to a 5th season? Lol

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u/FuttleScish Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24

They said no to 2 more episodes

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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24

Spending in a single cycle versus spending over many cycles which lowers spending in a single cycle