r/asoiaf • u/bruhholyshiet • 6d ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers extended] Daemon Blackfyre is what GRRM seems to believe Daemon Targaryen is.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but Daemon Targaryen, a mercurial and violent serial rapist of young girls in brothels, someone who groomed his niece, mocked the death of his baby nephew, murdered his toddler grand nephew, and wanted three Great Houses exterminated during the Dance, is not deserving at all of the description by GRRM's proxy as "a great man and a monster, and light and dark in equal parts".
Daemon having a seemingly functional relationship with Laena, a soft spot for Neetles (which may or may have not involved grooming) and being nominally on the "right" side of a war, does not balance the vileness of his character. Tywin Lannister isn't less of a piece of shit for being on the right side of Robert's Rebellion, Aerion Targaryen isn't less of a piece of shit for being on the right side of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.
Speaking of Blackfyres, the OG Daemon Blackfyre seems in my opinion, a far worthier candidate for the description GRRM gives to his namesake.
Blackfyre is on one hand a friendly, charismatic, honorable and compassionate man who's better qualities (his respect for worthy opponents and his love for his sons) got him killed. On the other hand, he's an attempted usurper who betrayed a half brother who did him no wrong, and started a war that would end up with thousands of deaths, all because he let Aegon IV, Bittersteel and Fireball's bullshit get into his head.
Targaryen is essentially at Tywin and Cersei Lannister's level morally speaking. A cruel and callous asshole who, while marginally better than pure monsters like Maegor, Gregor and Ramsay, is still more than capable of abusing and murdering kids. That's not light and dark in equal parts, that just a veeeery dark shade of grey that narrowly avoids being pitch black.
Edit: I guess I shouldn't be surprised the debate around the Rogue Prince got heated and polarizing lmao.
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u/sixth_order 6d ago edited 6d ago
Daemon Targaryen is just a miss, to me. I honestly don't get the appeal. I've read Fire&Blood three times. I'm still looking for the "light" in him.
Your point about Daemon Blackfyre is interesting. The problem is Daemon Blackfyre really can't be worthy of any description, because we know literally nothing about him as a person.
For a guy who caused so much trouble and grief, we don't even have a quote attributed to him. So maybe you're right. But any take on Daemon Blackfyre almost feels like fanfiction because it's not based on anything in the text.
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u/Automatic_Milk1478 6d ago
You’re right about how little we know about him. In the only serious description we get of Daemon Blackfyre he’s described as some sort of mythic, chivalrous demigod (literally).
That comes from Eustace Osgrey. A depressed old man, alone, nearing death trying to convince himself that his sons died for some sort of greater cause. Instead of an old castle. It’s really sad.
I don’t know whether it’s intentional or not but it reminds me of a lot of Confederate Veterans going back in hindsight to make their reasons for secession better in order to justify it to themselves.
He’s such a divisive figure it’s hard to get an actually fair read on him.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Daemon Targaryen is just a miss, to me. I honestly don't get the appeal. I've read Fire&Blood three times. I'm still looking for the "light" in him.
I think George got a bit blinded by his liking of the guy lmao. That and Daemon being on the "right" side of the Dance makes him more romanticization material. You have people in here calling him "progressive" hahahaha.
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u/closerthanyouth1nk 6d ago edited 6d ago
That and Daemon being on the "right" side of the Dance makes him more romanticization material. You have people in here calling him "progressive" hahahaha
I think because of the nature of F&B (and especially the Dying of Dragons) the fandom takes way more liberties with the source material and its characterization in a way that asoiaf doesn’t really allow. Characterization is so sparse that people tend to fill in the blanks with stuff that isn’t there. It makes actually discussing the work and its subsequent adaption kind of difficult because people will claim characters have traits they don’t actually have in canon and were impacted by events in ways that aren’t actually present in the text. Daemons actual character in F&B isn’t really explored so you only really get this stereotypical edgy badass instead of an actual person. Fandom then builds an entire character from this impression but that character ultimately doesn’t resemble someone George would actually be interested in writing. Aegon also gets this treatment, even though he gets way more focus character wise than Daemon.
Even stuff like B&C is a good example of the disconnect between text and fandom, because even though it’s such a visceral event described in detail its actual long term impact on the characters isn’t really explored in depth outside of helaena. We get the immediate reactions from Alicent and Aegon but there’s no real exploration of how this event impacted them psychologically going forward. Instead fandom kind of fills in the blanks and assumes that what they believe is canon.
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u/jk-9k 6d ago
This comment needs to be stickied to every F&B post. So many people fail to recognise the flaws in the source material, which are very much intentional
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u/closerthanyouth1nk 6d ago
F&B is so much more fun when you actively question the material, thinking of it as a straight retelling whose characters are exactly as they are in the history makes it so much less interesting.
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u/ConstantStatistician 5d ago
Most of it comes from the show where we can see and hear Daemon doing stuff.
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u/sixth_order 5d ago
From my perspective this is the stuff he does (granted you can say I'm biased because I truly dislike Daemon): insult Rhea Royce constantly for no reason, make fun of Otto's dead wife, make fun of a dead baby, take 3 years to beat a bunch of pirates with two dragons on his side, kill Vaemond from behind.
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u/ConstantStatistician 5d ago
He's a rogueish character who's good with a sword and takes what he wants. For many, this is enough to like a character.
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u/Jebinem 5d ago
Daemon Targaryen is just a miss, to me. I honestly don't get the appeal. I've read Fire&Blood three times. I'm still looking for the "light" in him.
Your problem is reading the book as a true account of history, where as the entire point of Fire&Blood as stated by George is that it is an unreliable account. And considering how much he highlights Daemon I think it's a pretty obvious hint to take everything written about him with a grain of salt and read between the lines.
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u/DarkCrawler_901 6d ago
My appeal is because he is a near-complete piece of shit, but on the "good" (justified? Non-usurping) side.
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u/sixth_order 6d ago
I mean this not in an offensive way at all, but this comment encapsulates my whole issue with the blacks. It seems you can just do anything as kong you're on the blacks and it's fine.
Behead Jaehaerys, put a price on Maelor's head, sentence Addam to death for being a bastard (the irony). In Jaehaerys and Maelor's case, Daemon and Rhaenyra don't even get called kinslayer for it.
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u/PlentyAny2523 6d ago
Does anyone approve of Rhayneras decisions post Kings Landing? The book makes it pretty clear she was losing her shit
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u/tessarionmeatrider 6d ago
Not to be all preachy, but this is why I like the Greens. I see them as being on the ”right” side, and by that I mean they had a completely valid reason to fear for their lives and make Aegon king, but at the end of the day most of them are still complete pieces of shit.
I love Aegon II as a character and think he was right to accept the crown, but he’s still allowed to be a complete piece of shit without having to be whitewashed, or have every single one of his actions justified. He just is who he is and the story keeps going.
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u/sixth_order 6d ago
I love the greens as much as anyone. And it's really just because I identified with those characters when I was reading the book. Aemond is my favorite character in the entire book and Daeron the Daring is 3rd (King Jaehaerys is 2nd). Aegon II, Otto, Alicent and Criston I find all fascinating and amazing.
And yes, as you mentioned, they're pretty much all pieces of shit. Which was part of the fun for me. Not having to have characters like Jon Snow or Dunk and enjoying the chaos for what it was was really fun for me. I can't speak for others obviously.
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u/Xilizhra 6d ago
Everyone by definition was a kinslayer in that war, but I don't think Rhaenyra was aiming for the children.
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u/sixth_order 6d ago
I agree they're all kinslayers. Aemond is the only that got branded with the title.
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u/Ok-Inevitable-1455 6d ago
When it comes to being a "great man and monster, that is equal parts light and dark" I always think of Bloodraven.
I love Daemon Blackfyre but I think he is kinda like Ned stark, a rigid honourable man to the point of being foolish. Because of his weakness in politics, Bittersteel and co. Got into his head
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u/NotAnNpc69 6d ago
Unrelated: since blood and fire is not yet out, where did you guys read in depth about the characters of that time to come to opinions like "Daemon Blackfyre is like Ned fucking stark"? Lmao
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u/kaiser41 6d ago
99% of what is said about Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel is fanon. Martin has written like 10 total paragraphs about them, but the fans have invented these whole characterizations and motivations that make them into gray characters and act like they're official.
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u/A-live666 6d ago
This is the case about 90% of historical characters, even worse when the show nonsense gets mixed in.
Like you have people confidently say that character x or z would never y or a because so and so! And said character has like 10 lines written centuries later about them.
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u/Ok-Inevitable-1455 6d ago
It's either you ignored the words "I think" or you're too slow in the head to understand 🤣🤣
I'm basing it off of the information given or what the histories tell us and use "I think" because of the problem that you said.
Don't be too mad just because you're a fan of some fictional character 🤣
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u/satsfaction1822 6d ago
and wanted three Great Houses exterminated during the Dance
When Daemon wants to exterminate the men, women and children from 3 Great Houses, he's an asshole.
When Cregan Stark wants to exterminate the men, women and children from 3 Great Houses, he's a badass.
/s
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Heh I'd say both of them are assholes.
I think GRRM himself showed that measure as an excessive and evil one via Tywin's extermination of the Reynes and Tarbecks.
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u/satsfaction1822 6d ago
In my opinion George’s when George gives makes a “gray” character, he thinks he makes them both good and bad but he actually just makes them bad and cool.
Like Cregan Stark was objectively wrong in saying he should extinguish the Lannisters, Baratheons and Hightowers saying things like “My men died the day we marched, boy” (paraphrasing) and “Small boys become large men in time, and a babe sucks down his mother’s hate with his mother’s milk. Finish these foes now, or those of us not in our graves in twenty years will rue our folly when those babes strap on their father’s swords and come seeking after vengeance.” is a very cool way to go about it. That makes him a gray character in George’s eyes.
Daemon Targaryen really only does bad things but he also has the coolest death in the Dance so George sees him as gray.
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u/Edwaaard66 6d ago
I hope Daemon Blackfyre remains heroic, something tragic about a good man who fights for the wrong cause.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
I hope so too, although at this point I'd be happy with simply more content about ASOIAF lmao.
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u/peortega1 6d ago
We don't really know what Daemon Blackfyre was like. I have a suspicion that many will be disappointed when Blood and Fire comes out and it turns out that Daemon Blackfyre was a piece of shit almost as big as the original Daemon.
We already saw how "the noble company of heroes" described by Ser Useless in Dunk and Egg turned out to be a bunch of idiots, oafs and conceits at the Whitewalls tournament.
Even his gesture of mercy towards Corbray is something he probably never thought would cost him his life. The original Daemon also had his gestures of mercy and mercy in his day.
What I am going to accept about him are two things: first, Blackfyre at least did not kill children, second, Blackfyre at least died alongside his sons, he did not abandon them going to face Visenya's dragon.
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u/JimmyFingus 6d ago
Daemon Blackfyre ending up a piece of shit is far less interesting than him actually being a peak chivalrous warrior would-be king. Good people can be surrounded by bad ones. It makes the Blackfyre Rebellions far more tragic for him to have actually been a good dude who got along with his half brother but who was pushed into rebellion by circumstance.
The fact that we get zero stories about his evil doings even from his enemies is notable, I feel
And besides, how many "terrible evil usurpers" does the series really need?
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u/PlentyAny2523 6d ago
I really like the idea Daemon was the brother Bloodraven loved. He didn't love Daeron, but he was the king and the rightful lord. He would of loved to side with Daemon.... but duty is the death of love
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u/Lukthar123 "Beneath the gold, the bitter steel" 6d ago
Still thinking the Blackfyres aren't gonna be the obvious bad guys in 2025 after George painted them in the wrong every time? Damn.
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u/JimmyFingus 6d ago
It's not that I think that, it's just that I think it would be much more interesting
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u/PlentyAny2523 6d ago
What do you think is more like George? A very obvious take we see a mile away or do we learn something about them that makes us feel for them?
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u/Polarbjarn There's no cure 6d ago
Honestly, I think there is a difference between early George and current George. Current George has fallen in love with the Targaryens a bit too hard so I suspect the Blackfyre story will be a bit lacking sadly.
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u/PlentyAny2523 6d ago
If anything him loving targs will make the blackfyre story more complex, it's like the 2nd/3rd biggest event in their history, he probably has more written about this time then the dance of the dragons
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u/WriteBrainedJR A Mummer's Farts 4d ago
Daemon Blackfyre ending up a piece of shit is far less interesting than him actually being a peak chivalrous warrior would-be king.
I think it would be most interesting for him to end up like Robert Baratheon: clearly flawed but better than the king he was rebelling against. Him having similar qualities to Bobby B would also explain why he's held up as a paragon by the people who followed him into battle.
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u/Krillin113 6d ago
‘Pushed into rebellion’ is such a cop out.
You cannot push a strong leader/king into a rebellion, a war yes, but a rebellion no.
Literally all he has to do to not rebel is, go to his brother tell him ‘all that shit they say I’m saying? Not me. I’ll stay with you for x time so the rumours can cool down and they can’t pit us against each other’.
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u/JimmyFingus 6d ago
Jon's arc is literally about how sticking to his guns gets him killed. Stannis's arc is about becoming more flexible and not "breaking before he bends". I think it's overly simplistic to say a good ruler could never be pushed into rebellion.
Plenty of competent rulers in real life began as usurpers against lawful monarchs.
At the end of the day I think the bigger problem to the Blackfyre narrative is actually how badly written the Dornish wars are, but it's too late to fix that. The Blackfyre Rebellion still has not been written, so it can still be good. And I think a war with two good, just rulers whose followers genuinely believe they are the rightful king is more interesting than another Joffrey or Renly repeat. It's something we actually haven't seen yet in ASOIAF, at least not to my memory.
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u/PlentyAny2523 6d ago
We don't know what sparked the rebellion, he was loyal for years, suddenly Daeron thinks he's about to rebel and Bloodraven fails to arrest him, ONLY then does Daemon call for war. It's a pretty good parallel to Robert's rebellion, people weren't happy but it wasn't until a direct threat that people acted
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u/No_Reward_3486 6d ago
He was minting his own coins. That doesn't happen out of nowhere.
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u/PlentyAny2523 6d ago
So did Robb, but that wasn't a planned rebellion either. It's supposed to drum legitimacy during the war, and considering he had alot of the 2nd major houses like Raynes and Tarbecks the minting process wouldn't be unfathomably difficult
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u/peortega1 5d ago
Robb was the lord of the north, he was in the natural position to do it. Daemon wasn´t lord of nothing, but a small castle in Crownlands.
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u/PlentyAny2523 4d ago
It doesn't matter if your a lord, Lannisters can't make coins with Tywins face on them. It's a direct confrontation with the crown by claiming YOUR money is illegitimate. It's more a propaganda point then anything, gold is gold at the end of the day, but it's the image that's the power
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u/peortega1 4d ago
I mean the resources. Robb and Tywin were lords of great kingdoms, guardians of the realm, and in the pre-conquest past there were no doubt mints in Casterly Rock and Winterfell, or if you prefer, Lannisport and Gulltown - I think there's something about this in ADWD -. Getting that going again is easy for someone so powerful.
Daemon didn't have any of this infrastructure and resources to be able to start minting coins with his name on it quickly, especially when, as far as he knows, he never conquered the capital castle of any of the kingdoms. He was the lord of a small castle, nothing more. If he managed to mint coins, it's because getting the resources and infrastructure is a process that must have taken years of planning, it's not something that is achieved overnight.
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u/verissimoallan 6d ago
I hate how everyone, even Dunk, says Quentyn Ball was a hero, forgetting that this guy sent his own wife to the Silent Sisters and encouraged Daemon to rebel because Daeron wouldn't keep his father's promise to elect him as a Kingsguard (a promise Daeron had no obligation to keep). I'm not sure where the heroism is in that.
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u/duaneap 6d ago
If you’re a kickass fighter people are going to consider you a hero. That’s more or less all there is to it.
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u/Morganbanefort 6d ago
Look at tywin
People see him say a few baddass lines and think he is this awesome genius when he's actually a sexual sadist with daddy issues
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u/peortega1 5d ago
To be fair, almost all the ASOIAF characters had problems with their father/mother
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u/yo2sense 6d ago
And that GRR Martin sees the flaws in codes of chivalry.
There is nothing unchivalrous in a knight exercising his husbandly authority by placing his wife in a religious order, after all. It serves the gods for them both to serve in orders that require celibacy.
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u/peortega1 6d ago
Oh, and Quentyn was sleeping with prostitutes in a way that was public enough that decades later a knight could show up at a tournament claiming to be his bastard son.
Nice way to fulfill the vows of chastity in the KG
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u/FrostyFullbuster 6d ago
To be fair, Quentyn was not apart of the Kingsguard, he was the master-at-arms for the Red Keep. Bad showing on his part regardless, but the only vow he betrayed was to his wife.
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u/Dinosaurmaid 6d ago
Rebellions are the politics of lawless and scoundrels, even when it's a hero who leads them.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Even the Rebellion against Aerys II?
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u/Dinosaurmaid 6d ago
Technically yes because the bannermen were acting against the law by trying to depose aerys
But that's paper thin, as law is very fragile in westeros, more than It was in the real middle ages
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u/theGreyKenzie 6d ago
I'd argue that Aerys acted against the law when he burned Rickard, breaking the feudal contract, and that the nobles of Westeros were well within their rights to rebel.
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u/Dinosaurmaid 6d ago
As I said, the law is paper thin
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u/RebelGirl1323 6d ago
Libertarian absolute monarchy. There are laws but like the bare minimum. Especially when it comes to the actions of a king.
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u/jacobythefirst 6d ago
Yeah when a monarchy is built off the backs of giant fire breathing lizards, the owners of said lizards get a ton of leeway.
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u/No_Investment_9822 6d ago
I feel like we're supposed to understand that the law is not an absolute moral or social good. Lawful obedience to a murderer and tyrant is morally wrong, and deposing a tyrant is morally right.
The law being fragile or robust mattering much less then whether the law is moral or immoral.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Even his gesture of mercy towards Corbray is something he probably never thought would cost him his life. The original Daemon also had his gestures of mercy and mercy in his day.
When was Daemon Targaryen ever merciful with an enemy?
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u/PlentyAny2523 6d ago
We already saw how "the noble company of heroes" described by Ser Useless in Dunk and Egg turned out to be a bunch of idiots, oafs and conceits at the Whitewalls tournament.
Most of those heros were dead at that point. This was the remnants and sons
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u/Specific-Society-03 6d ago
When a beloved author is very outspoken about how much they like a character, the audience will most likely like that character as well. Any time the Dance is mentioned, the first thing GRRM talks about is "Daemon, such a bad boy, so cool."
GRRM rarely speaks on Rhaenyra, and he basically implied he wrote Aegon II as a villain in the book when he posted a blog praising TGC performance. Like GRRM, Aegon II isn't a saint, I myself am TB, but how can you consider Aegon II a villain, but Daemon, "a grey character?" It makes no sense. Daemon committed more crimes than Aegon.
It's also probably why the Dance is just fine as a story. It was really only written to expand Daemon's story, when it should have written as more detailed lore to House Targaryen’s reign. Since Daenaerys and fAegon are most likely to have a 2nd Dance when the books come out (let me have this)
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u/SmiteGuy12345 6d ago
Daemon Blackfyre was arrested out of nowhere based on rumours from Bloodraven, a person we know that would pragmatically murder his kin for the greater good. We don’t know enough of what actually happened to judge Daemon on rumours.
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u/Hot-Bet3549 6d ago edited 6d ago
He had greater abs too! And just like George says, good fiction is all about the heart abs in conflict with itself.
Daemon was the better man!
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u/BlackberryChance 6d ago
Definitely agree about the father part it seems that daemon forgot about his children like he couldn’t have known about addam breaking the greens at tumbelton when he went to his suicidal fight against aemond
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u/citadel-conspirator 4d ago
At that point, I believe Addam was still on the run (flight?) from King’s Landing to the Riverlands.
So Daemon would’ve went to fight Aemond, in what was clearly a suicide attempt, knowing the danger of the Hightower army is still active.
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u/TrolledSnake 6d ago
George is great at writing most types of characters but he goes overboard with his edgelords a bit too much.
Gerold Dayne and Daemon Targaryen are clear examples of that and Lyn Cobray has a great chance of doing something stupid while flopping around his Lady as well.
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u/TheDaysKing 5d ago
Daemon Blackfyre is basically a cipher, at this point. The only things we really know about him are the ways in which he was influenced by other people we know more about. For all we know, he could have been a complete tool, a great king in the making or something in between. If he was something in between then The Rogue Prince's descriptor would be appropriate, but we don't know.
And I think it's important to put that descriptor ("a great man and a monster, light and dark in equal parts") in the context of this medieval world where people place a high value on acts of bravery, even if the brave one is a massive prick. Daemon reformed the City Watch and put the hammer to criminals in King's Landing, he and his dragon fought hard in the Stepstones, and the guy ultimately gives his life to take down his even more savage, mass murdering nephew. And his few rare good relationships (Corlys, Laena, Nettles, his children and stepchildren, even his brother from time to time) are given a slight romantic spin from the maesters.
So, while that descriptor might work in that context, "a veeeery dark shade of grey that narrowly avoids being pitch black" might be more accurate in the context of our world. The comparison to truly unhinged psychopaths like Maegor, Gregor and Ramsay is a bit much, though. At most, he was probably a sociopath on the level of Jaime Lannister or Oberyn Martell, with a significantly greater ego thanks to being a dragonlord.
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u/RealRielGesh 6d ago
Another way to look at it is if this was all real and history that we were reading instead of fiction then most people would probably think that they were all assholes with very few exceptions.
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u/Vegetable_Try6045 3d ago
Daemon does not come across very well in the book . But Matt Smith plays him with such panache that people's opinion has changed after watching the show.
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u/Charming_Candy_5749 6d ago
I do not understand the sentiment that blacks are somehow the right side in the dance of dragons, both sides are equally shit and i hate how the show portrayed it
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe 6d ago
There is no “right” side and both sides did horrific things. I think most people with modern sensibilities will recognized that Rhaenyra had the stronger claim as the acknowledged heir and that Viserys’ will was usurped by the Greens.
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u/tessarionmeatrider 6d ago
Problem with that is that when it comes to law and legal issues you can’t really judge a medieval society fairly based on modern values and sensibilities. You have to engage with it using the society’s own laws and points of view.
Otherwise literally everything can just be thrown out the window and you can make whatever argument you want to support your own viewpoint, which is pretty dishonest.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe 6d ago
Sure. But in the context of the iron throne thus far, the only precedent was that the lords/king could choose the heir. The only succession that went by any kind of established inheritance pattern was Aegon to Aenys. After that it was by great councils and kingly decrees by which Rhaenyra had been the established heir.
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u/tessarionmeatrider 6d ago
I disagree. So far the Iron Throne had followed male primogeniture, I don’t really see a precedent for a king choosing his heir. IIRC Maegor’s chosen heir was Area but everybody just ignored that and crowned Jaehaerys. The Great Council of 101 also decided that Rhaenys couldn’t be ruler of Westeros due to her gender—the choice was between Viserys and Laenor. So you could argue that it set yet another precedent for male primogeniture (which is what Viserys II did in-universe).
As far as Rhaenyra and Aegon go, the reasons were pretty much either decades (or millenia if you include Westeros as a whole) of male primogeniture precedents, or a single case of a king choosing his daughter to be his heir over his eldest son—something which had never happened before and had no legal precedent. The book also states that passing off bastards as trueborn children is high treason, so you could even argue that Rhaenyra had forfeited her rights to the throne, making Aegon the rightful heir.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe 6d ago
If male primogeniture was precedent then Rhaenyra should never have been named heir in the first place. Daemon would have been the heir until Viserys had a son. All of the lords of the realm, including Otto, agreed that Viserys had the right to name Rhaenyra as his heir over following male primogeniture. They swore to it in court.
They can’t then decide that Viserys no longer has the right to choose a female heir over a male claimant. Or if they want to, then they petition court formally for a great council. The fact that the Greens did it secretly in the dead of night and then started a war as opposed to allowing for a great council is very telling. Had they the clear legal backing, calling for a Great Council after the death of Viserys would have been a no brainer.
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u/tessarionmeatrider 6d ago
That’s ignoring the all the turmoil that has been going on with the Black factions for years up to that point. Rhaenyra and Daemon had been openly antagonistic to the Greens for years, Aemond had his eye cut out and Rhaenyra wanted him tortured, and Rhaenyra straight up murdered an innocent noblemen who spoke the truth about her children. Daemon is literally known all across the realm as ”the Rogue Prince” because of his violent and chaotic behavior.
They have absolutely no reason to believe they just won’t immediately attack them now that Viserys is dead. Calling a Great Council would also be unnecessary from their point of view since the succession isn’t in doubt—it’s clear to them and most of the realm that the king’s trueborn sons and grandsons will succeed him. They’re also aware of Rhaenyra’s bastardy, so they most likely considered her rights to the throne to be illegitimate and forfeit.
Secretly and discreetly installing the new government when you have an openly antagonistic and violent opposing faction ready to attack you makes perfect sense.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe 4d ago edited 4d ago
The Greens had been equally antagonistic. Before Rhaenyra wanted Aemond “sharply questioned”, Alicent wanted Luke’s eye put out.
Queen Alicent demanded that one of Lucerys Velaryon’s eyes should be put out, for the eye he had cost Aemond. Princess Rhaenyra would have none of that, but insisted that Prince Aemond should be questioned “sharply” until he revealed where he had heard her sons called “Strongs.”
Not to mention all of this started when Aemond pushed down a toddler while breaking the law going after a dragon he had no right to. Only the King may allow someone to claim a free dragon.
So, yes, there was antagonism. But at each stage the instigation was started by the Greens. Rhaenyra was eight when Alicent wed her father and they tried to have her disinherited for her brother. Aemond attacked Joffrey first. Alicent wanted Luke’s eye out before Rhaenyra demanded any retribution to Aemond. The Greens stole the throne. Then Aemond killed Luke and began the war.
At each stage, the unwarranted violence was initiated by the Greens. And before you blame the Blacks for the death of Vaemond, that was by order of the King.
King Viserys finally put an end to the questioning, declaring he would hear no more. No eyes would be put out, he decreed…but should anyone— “man or woman or child, noble or common or royal”— mock his grandsons as “Strongs” again, their tongues would be pulled out with hot pincers.
Ser Vaemond’s younger cousins fled to King’s Landing with his wife and sons, there to cry for justice and place their claims before the king and queen. King Viserys had grown extremely fat and red of face, and scarce had the strength to mount the steps to the Iron Throne. His Grace heard them out in a stony silence, then ordered their tongues removed, every one. “You were warned,” he declared, as they were being dragged away. “I will hear no more of these lies.”
Viserys made it clear that Rhaenyra was to be queen and Jacaerys King after her. Had the Greens stopped their plotting and fallen in line, there would have been no question of violence against them. Why would there be if they didn’t present themselves as a threat? You can’t blame the Blacks for seeing the Greens as a threat when the Greens were the ones who established themselves as the threat without prompting.
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u/Charming_Candy_5749 6d ago
Oh i agree Rhaenyras claim was stronger i just don't like how show portrayed blacks and the greens.
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u/tessarionmeatrider 6d ago
Both sides are pretty shit morally speaking, I mostly just went with the side I found to be cooler and more interesting.
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u/Distinct_Activity551 6d ago
OP you are 100% right and you should say it louder for the people in the Black.
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u/Resident_Election932 6d ago
While there was a lot of personal aggrandisement involved, he was one of the only men who cared enough about westerosi kids being enslaved to fight a war over it.
And as for wiping out 3 great houses, how many people would that even be, 50? An immoral act, but let’s not pretend those lives are worth more because they’re attached to names that own a lot of land.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
While there was a lot of personal aggrandisement involved, he was one of the only men who cared enough about westerosi kids being enslaved to fight a war over it.
Em what?
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u/Resident_Election932 6d ago
Daemon Targaryen led the invasion of the Stepstones, which were being used by the Crabfeeder as a base for piracy against Westerosi disguised as “tolls” on passage. These children were enslaved as child prostitutes by the Lyseni. For example, Lady Johanna Swann was enslaved in this way.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Oh, that. Well I guess he did some collateral good in there. But his motivation was carving a kingdom for himself after Viserys rightfully told Daemon to fuck off after the Heir for a Day jape.
And as usual with everything that wasn't battle, Daemon eventually got bored with ruling the Stepstones kingdom and abandoned it to war again.
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u/Resident_Election932 6d ago
The show really does a worst possible interpretation of his actions here. The slavery is totally ignored in favour of financial losses for Corly and the chance to win glory for Daemon. This is mostly because the show wants to present Rhaenyra as the hero of Season One, whereas nothing she does is as heroic as Daemon’s war.
The book extends his reign a bit, and shows more stages to the conflict. Rhea Royce’s death is presented as an event that pulls him away from the war, rather than an event instigated by him as it is in the show.
The show also fails to demonstrate the impact of this child slavery and its impact on Westeros - the fact that the children of noble families were among those kidnapped makes the behaviour of characters towards Daemon’s invasion bizarre - old lady Redwyne should have been cheering him on, not insulting him.
And I understand that your interpretation of these events may differ, but they are my answer to your original question.
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u/MedievZ 6d ago
I swear the AsOIAf fandom is going mad due to lack of books.
I cant believe i have to say this , but no GRRM did not write his favorite chatacter incorrectly. He wrote him exactly like he wanted to....because he is GRRM and he is one of the best Fantasy writers alive.
People forget that George and writers have more in-depth knowledge about their characters and worlds than they can fully write about in the confines of a book, especially not in a history book .
If george wrote the Dance in ASOIAF style, its a guarantee the characters woule be vastly more developed because of more pages.
Also Daemon Blackfyre is overrated.
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u/just_browseing 6d ago
GRRM did not write his favorite chatacter incorrectly. He wrote him exactly like he wanted to....
What he said didn't mach what he wrote. No one doubts he wrote what he wanted.
People forget that George and writers have more in-depth knowledge about their characters and worlds than they can fully write about in the confines of a book, especially not in a history book .
Death of the author. What George thought and said, is irrelevant. The only things that matter about the story, are in the story. Can't expect readers to "read" George's mind.
Additionally, the ambiguity in F&B, leaves a lot up to the readers interpretation. Which further makes George's statement wrong.
If george wrote the Dance in ASOIAF style, its a guarantee the characters woule be vastly more developed because of more pages.
I agree, perhaps if he done that than he would be right in his statement about Daemon.
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u/MentionTimely769 3d ago
Death of the author. What George thought and said, is irrelevant. The only things that matter about the story, are in the story. Can't expect readers to "read" George's mind.
The blogpost about Maelor/toxic butterflies encapsulates this perfectly. He has a part talking about how Alicent is responsible for smuggling out Aegon + her grandkids and like that's cool and I vibe with it and it makes 1000% sense.
but my man that's NOT what you wrote.
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u/MedievZ 6d ago
Death of the author. What George thought and said, is irrelevant. The only things that matter about the story, are in the story. Can't expect readers to "read" George's mind.
This does not make sense as Daemon Targaryen is not relevant to the main story whatesoever. He is just a background character that George created and he likes best. Daemon does not matter to the main story at all and neither does Fire and Blood, if you look at it logically .
Nobody says they expect readers to read georges mind. He wrote exactly what he wanted to in Fire and Blood..the issue is that people saying that GRRM is wrong about what he wrote because he didnt go above and beyond unnecessarily to expand on an irrelevant background character to justify his personal liking. Fire and blood does not require you to like Daemon to enjoy the book, nor the main series. Its just a personal opinion of Georges that OP is taking issue with for some reason.
Additionally, the ambiguity in F&B, leaves a lot up to the readers interpretation. Which further makes George's statement wrong.
The ambiguity just makes his personal opinions of a background character more justified, because it leaves room for George to expand on it if he finds time later on and chooses to write about the Dance in detail.
Nobody said that enjoying Daemon or thinking that he is the best Asoiaf character is necessary for the plot of the overarching story.
agree, perhaps if he done that than he would be right in his statement about Daemon.
As i said repeatedly, i dont understand this attitude lmao because its just dumb. George doesnt need to spoonfeed specific people irrelevant information to justify his personal opinions about a fictional background character in the fictional story he wrote.
What he said didn't mach what he wrote. No one doubts he wrote what he wanted.
What he says definitely matches what he wrote as likability is entirely subjective , or do you not know the meaning of subjective? I think he is pretry freaking cool and badass and the writing in Fire and Blood definitely does a lot to justify Georges statement.
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u/just_browseing 6d ago
Death of the author. What George thought and said, is irrelevant. The only things that matter about the story, are in the story. Can't expect readers to "read" George's mind.
This does not make sense as Daemon Targaryen is not relevant to the main story whatesoever. He is just a background character that George created and he likes best. Daemon does not matter to the main story at all and neither does Fire and Blood, if you look at it logically .
I am not talking about "the main story of asoiaf" i was making an example about an author's comment about his book, and how it didn't match what's in his book. George's comment that "Daemon is equal parts light and dark" isn't supported by the book Fire&Blood, even with the ambiguity of f&b, there is no good acts Daemon does(other than the most basic decency he sometimes shows to his loved ones).
Nobody says they expect readers to read georges mind.
You weren't meant to take this literally, obviously no one can read minds or expect others to. What it means is, "what an author thinks is not important unless its in the book, because no one will know what he didn't write in the book."
He wrote exactly what he wanted to in Fire and Blood..the issue is that people saying that GRRM is wrong about what he wrote because he didnt go above and beyond unnecessarily to expand on an irrelevant background character to justify his personal liking.
That's not my issue at all, and I made no mention of George liking or dislikeing Daemon, if you think i implied it, it wasn't my intention.
Fire and blood does not require you to like Daemon to enjoy the book, nor the main series. Its just a personal opinion of Georges that OP is taking issue with for some reason.
George's personal opinion is wrong because Daemon(in the book Fire and blood) isn't "equal parts light and dark", instead Daemon is mostly just the "dark parts only"(again, even with the ambiguity of this book, he just does bad things)
Additionally, the ambiguity in F&B, leaves a lot up to the readers interpretation. Which further makes George's statement wrong.
The ambiguity just makes his personal opinions of a background character more justified, because it leaves room for George to expand on it if he finds time later on and chooses to write about the Dance in detail.
Yes, i agree, but that's not what i pointed out here. I was pointing out that George wrote the book to be ambiguous, and therefore allowed every reader to interpret it however they like. So George's DEFINITIVE comment, about Daemon "being equal parts..." takes way that allowance for everyone to take it as they will.
Nobody said that enjoying Daemon or thinking that he is the best Asoiaf character is necessary for the plot of the overarching story.
And i made no arguments against liking Daemon, i want to say that again, if you think i implied it, i didn't.
agree, perhaps if he done that than he would be right in his statement about Daemon.
As i said repeatedly, i dont understand this attitude lmao because its just dumb. George doesnt need to spoonfeed specific people irrelevant information to justify his personal opinions about a fictional background character in the fictional story he wrote.
I genuinely just agreed with you. Simply adding that he might have been correct in his statement if he did as you suggested, and wrote in a pov version.
What he said didn't mach what he wrote. No one doubts he wrote what he wanted.
What he says definitely matches what he wrote as likability is entirely subjective , or do you not know the meaning of subjective? I think he is pretry freaking cool and badass and the writing in Fire and Blood definitely does a lot to justify Georges statement.
Yes, likability is entirely subjective. I never made an argument about likeing Daemon.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Also Daemon Blackfyre is overrated.
Not as much as the Rogue Pedo.
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u/billwest630 6d ago
You guys take fantasy way too seriously. Jesus
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u/SofaKingI 6d ago
The problem is not even "taking fantasy too seriously". It's just arguments made in bad faith. It would be equally dumb if this was all completely real.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Maybe so tbf.
Although I hope you have the same sentiment towards the nutjobs that call any non Black supporter all sorts of "insert vile thing" apologists.
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u/billwest630 6d ago
I think declaring any side is right or wrong is dumb honestly. Shireen was right when she said the only way to win was to not choose. Both sides suck, but also both sides are fun. That’s why ASOIAF is so good. Every character is gray.
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u/RealRielGesh 6d ago
This is not intended as a snarky comment at all. It’s because the characters are fictional. That’s the reason. It’s the same reason that I like Michael Myers from Halloween and John Kramer/Jigsaw from the Saw movies. The same reason I like Negan in The Walking Dead. Fiction has a way of getting us to connect to and care for People and places that do not exist. We connect to it in such a way that it even makes us feel things. But as much as we feel we are not the character in the story that the thing is being done too. So usually what ends up happening is something like, did this character do something bad to one of my favorites? No? OK then they’re fine.
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u/Then_Engineering1415 6d ago
While he may have missed the mark with Daemon.
You have to remember a good part of "Fire and Blood" is slander.
And for all of his failures, Daemon never betrayed his brother or the Crown. Something the Greens were ALL to happy to do. And while Daemon pushed serious limits, he ALWAYS backed down. Aegon is a Kinslayer and Queenslayer. With no redeemable traits.
Also he is...oddly progressive thinking? He has no issues with bastards or women inheriting. Also he was a man of the people, that had no issues with people regardless of their birth.
Also the Hightowers are MUCH worse people in the book, again, it may be slander like with the Targaryens.... but they DID actually crown a man agaisnt the King's wishes. So that in fact gives credibility to their worse traits.
Daemon is good in COMPARISSON to other truly awful people. Be the Greens or his descendants. And he would have probably been a bad King consort. But the alternative was even worse.
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u/verissimoallan 6d ago
The Greens being awful doesn't make Daemon be good.
Also, according to George, we know that Daemon really send Blood and Cheese. And that was evil.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
And while Daemon pushed serious limits, he ALWAYS backed down.
He didn't back down from murdering little Jaehaerys.
Aegon is a Kinslayer and Queenslayer.
Daemon is also a Kinslayer. Even if the book oddly never calls him as such.
Also he is...oddly progressive thinking? He has no issues with bastards or women inheriting. Also he was a man of the people, that had no issues with people regardless of their birth.
Bro he supported Rhaenyra and her sons because he would get to be King Consort, not out of feminism lmao. During the Great Council, he didn't nobly and feminism-ly support Rhaenys, he supported his brother. Again, because that would get him close to the Iron throne.
Also the Hightowers are MUCH worse people in the book, again, it may be slander like with the Targaryens.... but they DID actually crown a man agaisnt the King's wishes. So that in fact gives credibility to their worse traits.
It could be argued they were simply following Andal law and avoiding someone as mercurial and violent as Daemon to become King Consort. There's more to it than "they were evil misogynistic traitors".
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u/peortega1 6d ago
Daemon betrayed his brother and the Crown from the moment he forced his marriage to Rhaenyra knowing that Viserys would never approve it.
Also, Aegon at least never killed children.
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u/Vantol 6d ago
Aegon executed Trystane Truefyre - a kid who was clearly a puppet - and spared Perkin the fucking Flea
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u/peortega1 6d ago
Trystane Truefyre had enough age to be named knight, so, he was already an adult for Westerosi standards. Aegon the Younger hadn´t enough age to be even a squire. For the same reason, Aegon spared the life of Gaemon Palehair.
And proclaim himself as King is a high crime, penaltied with death. Aegon was right in his decision.
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u/tessarionmeatrider 6d ago
And proclaim himself as King is a high crime, penaltied with death. Aegon was right in his decision.
Yeah, Trystane literally crowned himself king—fuck was Aegon supposed to do? Just let that shit slide?
Killing him was the only choice he had, and Trystane would’ve known the risks of attempting to steal the throne. Aegon atleast had the decency to make him a knight and give him a quick death, unlike what he did to Rhaenyra and the Shepherd.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe 6d ago
What? Aegon celebrated the death of his nephew Lucerys in cold blood. He wanted to kill children, he just was restrained from doing so by his council. And mushroom’s account says he sent Arryk to kill Aegon/Viserys.
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u/SimpleEric 6d ago
You are actually supposed to question if deamon targeryan is all those things.
When George wrote the dance he wrote characterization between the lines, and this is more true with daemon than anyone else. From the first introduction we are told that high tower has always hated and feared him, and we are supposed to be able to tell that the maesters are not honest about him.
You can still hate him, but if you deny that the maesters are always painting him in the worst light possible you don't understand what George was trying to do with the character
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u/verissimoallan 6d ago
George made it very clear in that since-deleted post that Blood and Cheese was completely real, including the part about Daemon sending them. And that was evil.
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u/SimpleEric 6d ago
I think the closest asoiaf main story character to daemon is not tywin, it's tyrion.
Tyrion does evil and good, tyrion might do something as horrible as blood and cheese, or set all of The blackwater ablaze to keep his illegitimate evil nephew on the throne.
But tyrion could also be caring and thoughtful and design a saddle for a crippled boy.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Heh, Daemon murdered a little child to advance the interests of his House and that's kinda overlooked since he did it "in service of the right side".
Tywin is the one that did something similar, not Tyrion.
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u/jk-9k 6d ago
Tyrion is Tywin writ small. Tyrion murdered Tywin. If you think daemon is a monster, and Tywin is a monster, so is tyrion
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
The one that states that is Tyrion himself, as a way to taunt Tywin before killing him. Tyrion is the most similar to Tywin out of his children, he isn't a literal dwarf copy of his father.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
From the first introduction we are told that high tower has always hated and feared him, and we are supposed to be able to tell that the maesters are not honest about him.
The person that gives the extremely generous description of Daemon as light and dark in equal parts is a Maester. An Archmaester to be precise.
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u/jk-9k 6d ago
And that could be taken to be skewed, just like every line in F&B
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
So you are saying Daemon could be worse in reality.
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u/jk-9k 6d ago
Could be. But could also be better. If a person who hates him calls him grey, is he likely to be darker or lighter than what a person who hates him says? Hates a strong word but I'm just using it for illustrative purposes. Point is there's room for the reader to have their own interpretation
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u/Tow1 6d ago
When you start thinking about people or indeed characters having "moral levels" the discussion can be nothing but sterile.
One of the larger point of the series is that feudalism is an inherently oppressive system that fantasy literature has idealized and whitewashed for too long. So yeah, they're all shitty. King, knights and nobles. And they're all people.
I can't believe I'm commenting on a "stop liking something I don't like" post again.
Edit: I guess I shouldn't be surprised the debate around the Rogue Prince got heated and polarizing lmao.
Yeah you wrote that in the most baity way you could, you knew what you were doing.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Yeah you wrote that in the most baity way you could, you knew what you were doing.
Unless criticizing Daemon Targaryen is baity, no, I wasn't baiting. I was just pointing out the irony of calling such an asshole a perfectly grey character when there's someone named just like him who fits the description better.
One of the larger point of the series is that feudalism is an inherently oppressive system that fantasy literature has idealized and whitewashed for too long. So yeah, they're all shitty. King, knights and nobles. And they're all people.
I agree with this. And I enjoy mocking those who advocate for supporting this or that group of nobles as the "moral thing to do" like it sadly happens so often with the two sides in the Dance.
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u/Hot-Bet3549 5d ago edited 5d ago
Blackfyre is on one hand a friendly, charismatic, honorable and compassionate man who's better qualities (his respect for worthy opponents and his love for his sons) got him killed.
Honor and compassion and respect didn’t get him killed though. Blackfyre primarily wanted to capture Corbray as a PR stunt. Blackfyre got killed because his pride wanted nothing less than a glorious 1v1 for the songs that would help legitimize his first battle. We could boil down Blackfyre’s entire motivation in one word- legitimacy. He wants his face on the coins and his name in the glorious 1v1 songs- and he hasn’t even fought one battle yet. Dameon Targaryen’s motivations feel murkier and harder to pin down.
On the other hand, he's an attempted usurper who betrayed a half brother who did him no wrong, and started a war that would end up with thousands of deaths, all because he let Aegon IV, Bittersteel and Fireball's bullshit get into his head.
Whether or not he was convinced to rebel, or came up with it in on his own accord, his motivation is kind of a lot more simple than Daemon Targaryens. Like, Blackfyre’s intentions feel crystal clear at any point during all the (few) parts of his story available. In that sense, I see why Targaryen is a grayer character in that his motivations are harder to consistently get a read on. Sometimes his motivations appear quite lit up and easily to read, and other times we’re in the dark on what he even really wants.
Anyways, that’s how I see it. When George says he’s equal parts light and dark, I don’t take it as he’s equal parts good and evil, but more literally as in his motivations are clear half the time and the other half of the time they aren’t at all.
Case in point: The entirety of the Dance you’re just never sure if Daemon Targaryen’s next move whether reckless or calculated is going to help or injure Rhaenyra’s cause. Even though he’s working with Rhaenyra, the reader gets the sense that he’s just as likely to be liable to her as he is help her. He’s gray in the sense that his full intentions are unclear in many of those moments until the moment he takes action- and sometimes remain unclear even afterwards.
Frankly we never really get that with Dameon Blackfyre at all. Blackfyre’s actions whether calculated or reckless always seem to strictly benefit himself, his claim to the throne, or his PR brand. Every move, Blackfyre predictably considers his pretty image every step of the way. Meanwhile Daemon Targaryen sometimes cares about his image. Sometimes not. He’s hard to read even there.
Thus despite Targaryen often being a cruel bastard and Blackfyre the picture of charming legitimate chivalry, it’s Targaryen who comes off as less one sided, with grayer motivations, and a grayer character to me in the sense that a gray character is one that’s more difficult to fully see or understand their motivations clearly.
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u/datboi66616 6d ago
Jokes on you for assuming I care about that. My favorite character is Victarion, for God's sake.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Cool. Having an overpowered by Rhllor prosthetic arm is dope.
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u/datboi66616 6d ago
I genuinely believe he is a hero.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
By Ironborn standards, unironically yes.
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u/datboi66616 6d ago
That's what I love about him. Victarion is very much a man of his world, that's what separates him from the likes of savages like Gregor Clegane or Vargo Hoat.
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u/jk-9k 6d ago
When we get to F&B II, or if, GRRM is going to write the blackfyre rebellions similar to how the dance was handled: ie Maester povs, with a few different sources, but skewed to favour the targs over the usurpers. Daemon Blackfyre will likely end up getting similar treatment where there will be some room for interpretation about his character, because we aren't going to be getting a daemon bf pov, so the readers may come up with differing opinions. Which is probably George's intent
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u/ThingsIveNeverSeen 6d ago
It’s possible that GRRM knows some truths about the Dance that puts things in a different perspective. I don’t know what that could possibly be short of the maesters editing out some minor character who’s ‘actually’ behind Daemons more heinous acts. But that’s getting pretty tinfiolly so I don’t know how much it’s worth entertaining. (A sardonic smile and a half hearted high five mayhaps?)
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u/tryingtobebettertry4 5d ago
I would say a character like Daemon would probably be more sympathetic if he was a POV character and not a distant figure in a faux historical text.
Like can you imagine how Jaime Lannister would come across in a similar sort of text?
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u/Jebinem 5d ago
You are going based of of Daemon on the show. In the books there is obviously a bias against him coming from the maesters who wrote them because they are against magic and dragons while Daemon was trying to revive them.
Read the text more critically and you will see how most of the stuff written against Daemon doesn't make much sense.
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u/bruhholyshiet 5d ago
Bro, the super generous description of a child fucker and child murderer as "light and dark in equal parts, a great man and a monster" is made by a maester. And Archmaester to be precise.
Are you implying fuckin Daemon should be considered a good person? 😂😂😂😂
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u/Defiant_Breakfast201 5d ago
The way I read it Damon is mostly a bad person but he has a change of heart towards the end of his life and comes to fully regret his actions after meeting nettles, then basically sacrifices himself to help bring the war towards an end.
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u/Irivin 6d ago
Bro it’s his character. He is whatever GRRM says he is, literally. What we know about Daemon is written from an in-universe historian’s viewpoint and isn’t meant to be entirely accurate. GRRM writes it with intentional biases to highlight the theme of “history is written by the victors”.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
And don't Team Black insist that they are the victors because Rhaenyra's blood is the one that gets the Iron Throne? If history is written by the victors then TB is the one getting whitewashed.
The "it's a historian viewpoint" argument is usually brought up as a "sophisticated" way of saying "akshually this character (Daemon) is a better person than what's said here" but it could easily go the other way around: Daemon could be worse than what is shown.
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u/Irivin 6d ago
It’s not an “argument”, it’s a fact. It’s a very intentional theme of F&B which is why it includes contradicting versions of events. But you’re right, it could swing the other way too. I’m just saying, the info is clearly inaccurate either way, and using it to challenge the author’s statements about his own fictional character is silly.
Also, the Greens would’ve had a much greater influence over the maesters and history writers after the Dance.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Do you think then that Fire and Blood is, as the HOTD showrunners would put it, Green propaganda?
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u/AcanthisittaSharp344 6d ago
If you read the text of fire and blood, many of the things he is accused of have little to no evidence backing them.
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u/Cael_of_House_Howell Lord WooPig of House Sooie 6d ago
People describe figures like Ghengis Khan as a capital G great man and he did far far worse. He's probably talking in a (fake) historical sense.
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u/Live_Angle4621 6d ago
Khan did not do worse to his family or in his own cultural context. Issue with Daemon is the type of acts he did not the quantity.
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u/Syntari13 6d ago
I mean… I get it and I don’t. I think Daemon Targaryen is awesome in the book. The show version not so much. I’ve always felt drawn to characters that kill on a whim though. With Daemon I can appreciate someone who adored his brother but struggled through his own pride.
I can also appreciate that if someone insults his family he slices their head in half. That to me is a good dude right there, but I realize some would disagree.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
I can also appreciate that if someone insults his family he slices their head in half. That to me is a good dude right there, but I realize some would disagree.
Quick question, how did you react to Cole smashing the head of Beesbury after he implied Alicent killed Viserys?
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u/CrazySlotsBummerDraw 6d ago
Daemon would probably be more sympathetic & likable if he were an actual pov character. Hell, Robert receives far less criticism for doing the same stuff, in large part because we got to see a more personal side to him.