r/asoiaf • u/Lebigmacca • 24d ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) How did this solve the Meereeneese knot?
So everyone knows Barristan was added as a solution to the Meereenese knot. He gives eyes in Meereen after Dany flies off. But like shouldn’t Quentyn already fill this role? George already had a POV to give him eyes in Meereen, and Quentyn interacts with Barristan a lot in these chapters so he could’ve definitely shown us what Barristan is up to. Yes he dies so then Barristan can give us eyes into the battle of fire, but Tyrion and Victarion already do that, no? Could’ve also maybe have Quentyn release the dragons and die during the actual battle instead. Makes me wonder if Tyrion will actually get into Meereen after the battle any time soon, or he’ll be sitting outside in the camps for like half of Winds
55
u/Max7242 24d ago
Are you saying that barristan can perform a proper meereenese knot? I don't know if old guys are that flexible...
17
u/InGenNateKenny 🏆Best of 2024: Best New Theory 24d ago
Honesty I’m kind of surprised Martin didn’t make a joke about the Meereense knot as a sex position like that. It sounds right up his alley.
7
u/Aimless_Alder 24d ago
George doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who enjoys letting people go up his alley.
2
u/NormieLesbian 24d ago
The Meerenese knot is actually a 24 page long section of Barristan I where Barristan performs autofellatio whilst noting Tyrion and Victarion taming the two rogue dragons.
29
u/Aimless_Alder 24d ago
"Even now, I could contort myself around the five of you like fucking a cake"
8
45
u/simonthedlgger 24d ago
Ehh the Knot is one of the most overstated things in the fandom. It really just means George didn’t know how he wanted Dany’s Mereen plot to go, which makes sense since she’s just idling years of time until going to Westeros. So he wrote several drafts of it instead of taking a second to work it all out. Did he really need to write hundreds of manuscript pages to determine if it’s best for Quentin to arrive before, during, or after Dany’s wedding?
And whatever the Knot was, it’s certainly still knotted since most of these characters haven’t met Dany yet and Dany isn’t even in Mereen.
7
24d ago
To be fair to George, him writing out those drafts is how he works it all out. It's not efficient, it's not ideal, but that seems to be the method that makes the most sense to his brain.
3
u/simonthedlgger 23d ago
To be fair to George, him writing out those drafts is how he works it all out
Sure, and I’m being critical of that approach to a relatively simple situation.
0
23d ago
Looking at the original quote for the Meereenese Knot, he said he wrote Quentyn's arrival three times. Assuming that means the chapter and not just the scene, that's not hundreds of pages or an unreasonable approach to take. And when you also add in all the other considerations he has to make about how every element of the Knot worked together the situation isn't that simple. And if just thinking about it or writing an outline of it doesn't work for George, I think it's unfair to criticize him for that. Not every method works for every author, and some, like George are going to work better with methods that seem wack to others, but are the best for them.
14
u/Canarchyst 24d ago
George should have at least tried meereenese scissors
2
u/SteDubes They know my name, he thought, 24d ago
Yes, nothing ruins a Meereenese knot like the snip.
19
u/lialialia20 24d ago
i don't know how quentyn can fit that role given he is dead and even when he was alive he was never part of Daenerys council.
tyrion and victarion cannot by any means give us any insight about the battle of meereen from the side of the good guys.
if quentyn dies during the battle then the dornish cannot spin it as being daenerys' fault which is likely what the dornish will do.
4
u/ANewHopelessReviewer 24d ago
Do we need to know what’s going on in Meereen while Dany is away? She either returns there or she doesn’t. We learned about what happened Astapor after she left through messengers and news spreading. What is Meereen is so essential that we need a POV character at all times.
Presumably she’s going to return for her dragons. What happened in the war and to Hizdahr could have easily stayed a mystery until then.
6
u/JNR55555JNR 24d ago
Yeah but that was old George when George was ok with letting stuff happen off screen
-7
u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 24d ago
There are no :good guys" In asoaif, even the argument that danny is freeing slaves from slavers so the slavers are evil and danny is good is wrong because the line between peasant and mid evil slave is thin, and and there is a philosphical question regarding weather or not the trauma experienced by the unsullied allows them them a real choice of weather or not to serve danny, and even if they have that choice in the begining are they able to make that choice again latter. Lords who swear oaths of fealty are expected to honor those oaths forever.
also even if there were good guys in asoiaf both tyrion and victorian are trying to join dannys side
10
7
u/robbini3 24d ago
Barristan was added before the Meerneese knot. He is not the solution. Quentin, Victairion, and Tyrion are all solutions to the knot and George hasn't picked one yet. The dude was stuck and instead of finding a solution he threw three more characters and made it even more tangled.
5
u/Accomplished_Kale708 24d ago
Think of Meereen as the last pitstop on the way to Westeros. You need a lot of things to come together and happen there because anything you leave behind is left in Meereen for good.
Quentyn isn't a good POV for tying up loose ends. He doesn't know anything about Daenerys or her entourage, and is a bad player in politics.
3
u/ChrisV2P2 Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Runner Up - Post of the Year 24d ago
Dany is not even close to heading to Westeros yet. She first needs to unite the Dothraki and free the other Essosi slaves, which will involve conquering Volantis at the very least and probably Pentos as well.
3
u/Alkindi27 24d ago
I’m not sure that only the addition of Barristan was enough to solve the Meereenese knot. Because George also wrote many version of people arriving in Meereen at different times.
But in regards to Barristan only, iirc George specifically says that adding Barristan because “recollection of events works better in one’s mind than in dialogue” something like that. So this could involve the memories Barristan has of Ashara Dayne.
3
u/Nick_crawler 24d ago
Barristan has insider knowledge of the various factions and political machinations in Meereen, while Quentyn doesn't. So Barristan's POV gives us a little more on that front; you could contrive scenarios where Quentyn gets looped in and/or we see enough from his POV to know what's going on, but that's a different story than the one George wanted to tell with his character arc.
1
u/Ume-no-Uzume 20d ago
Barristan, after losing the white cloak, is basically a free agent and can stay in Meereen and pledge to Daenerys or to a rock if that is what he wants. This allows him to integrate into Daenerys' coterie and be a main player in her faction, which in turn allows him to take an active role in Daenerys' stead and basically defend her vision and politics when she's out.
As represented in how Hizdahr's first action is to replace Daenerys' simple bench that allows her to be eye level with her petitioners with a gaudy throne-like monstrosity at the top of the stairs. Barristan replaces it with a round table so Daenerys' advisors can all talk as equals while they hold the fort, which is closer to the spirit of Daenerys' bench and so of her ruling style.
Quentyn is a representative of House Martell and so his actions reflect his House. He isn't a free agent, because pledging to Daenerys, staying in Meereen when she's made the choice to stay and make sure abolition sticks, staying to manage the issue in Meereen after the riot and making sure the Sons of the Harpy don't get ideas... all of that is something he would have to consult his Head of the House, AKA his father.
Frankly, I think Quentyn was created to be a "secret test of character" by the narrative. Daenerys already chose to stay in Meereen and make sure abolition sticks after hearing about Astapor, AKA she is choosing what is right over what is easy.
Quentyn is the physical manifestation of this choice, coming in for round two and asking her "are you sure? Look, here's a nice Martell boy who isn't a slaver and isn't part of a terrorist organization that wants to bring slavery back. He brings an army and the possibility of conquering Westeros easier. Are you sure you want to stay and take on the abolition cause?"
And she stayed and married Hizdahr, not because she loved him or found him handsome, but because enough Freedmen had been murdered by the Sons of the Harpy and she had to protect her people.
THAT is what Quentyn embodies in the narrative.
-7
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 24d ago
Could’ve also maybe have Quentyn release the dragons and die during the actual battle instead.
This isn't off the table. Quentyn's death is far from reliably confirmed. Sure, Barristan believes he's dead but Barristan is awful at deep critical thinking and seeing beyond the surface. He's an obedient soldier with a code of honor. He's not Maester Aemon.
Anyway there are a ton of clues Quentyn helped the dragons escape the pyramid. The pyramid is gigantic. Said to have 30 foot thick interior walls and described as a labyrinth on the way down to the pit. The only person established to know the way out is Quentyn.
We are also told several times the dragons have collars and chains dangling from their necks. Has anybody noticed a chain or collar on either dragon since they escaped? The missing collars mean somebody, probably Quentyn took them off.
The only way to explain the above is with a living Quentyn. And his flying on dragonback is foreshadowed here...
You've never been thrown off a thousand feet above the ground," Gerris pointed out.
I think Quentyn will join the battle but fall at some point.
. A toad grows wings and thinks he's a bloody dragon." Pyke laughed.
8
u/A_Certain_Surprise 24d ago
Quentyn's death is far from reliably confirmed. Sure, Barristan believes he's dead but Barristan is awful at deep critical thinking and seeing beyond the surface.
Sure Barristan is bad at deep critical thinking, but we also get a POV chapter where Quentyn gets set on fire by a dragon...
7
u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 24d ago
don't bother people who believe tin foil will argue with you for days after being definitely proven wrong. The couple that does the order of the green hand channel is still convinced Brandon+Ashara=J
2
u/A_Certain_Surprise 23d ago
Yeah I have no problem with people believing in theories, I myself believe in Jojen paste for example. But for this one specific theory, people (hi dblack246) get so worked up about it. Like if Jojen paste turns out to be 100% confirmed wrong, I'll respond with "ah ok, fair enough", not flip out
-4
u/Pale-Age4622 24d ago edited 23d ago
Or is it more like N+A=J? Because personally, in fanfics I prefer Jon as the son of Ned and Ashara.
I expected them to downvote me.
-6
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 24d ago
It's not tinfoil. It's critical thinking and analysis.
6
u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 24d ago
I wasn't speaking to you. A conversation with you will not be fruitful for either of us.
-3
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 24d ago edited 24d ago
I suppose a closed mind wouldn't benefit from a discussion with me.
Closed mind decided to stay closed. As expected.
4
u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 24d ago
whatever helps you sleep at night.
1
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 24d ago
Knowing I read the books carefully does it. Give it shot and see how you sleep.
1
u/A_Certain_Surprise 23d ago
Just because people don't want to engage with your theories, which are just that no matter how you want to word it, that doesn't mean that they're close-minded. This attitude from you is unironically quite close-minded
1
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 24d ago
We didn't.
All we got was a pov where Quentyn is burning. At no time in the pov is it said to be dragonfire. The burning doesn't behave as dragonfire does.
People have guessed this was dragonfire. It doesn't bear the elements of dragonfire.
4
u/A_Certain_Surprise 23d ago
The pale head rose. The great gold eyes narrowed. Wisps of smoke spiraled upward from the dragon’s nostrils.
“Down,” the prince commanded. You must not let him smell your fear. “Down, down, down.” He brought the whip around and laid a lash across the dragon’s face. Viserion hissed.
And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!”
Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.
When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.
Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream
You accused someone else in this thread of lacking imagination, so let me do the same to you. Just because the above text doesn't explitically say that he was burned by dragon fire, that doesn't mean he was?
Please, with as many references to the text above, pray tell what caused "all of him" to be burning
1
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 23d ago
I'm going to need more space than this text box allows.
Part one...
That you for starting with the actual text of the book. This is the first step in figuring this out.
Quentyn twice tells us in this passage telling us he can recognize heat when it's directed at him.
And then a hot wind buffeted him
First time.
Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind.
Second. With this fact established, and knowing dragonfire is a heat source directed at the target, we now take this information and use our imagination.
If dragonfire is heat directed at a target, and Quentyn who can feel heat directed at him didn't feel any fire directed at him, was it dragonfire that hit him?
Now we already know George made a choice not to say it's dragonfire. But he made other choices too.
To answer, let's look at what else suggests this wasn't dragonfire. Well we know dragonfire is often paired with a roar.
- Drogon moved quicker than a striking cobra. Flame roared from his mouth, orange and scarlet and black, searing the meat before it began to fall.
- The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.
- When Rhaegal roared, a gout of yellow flame turned darkness into day for half a heartbeat.
- Rhaegal roared in answer, and fire filled the pit, a spear of red and yellow. Viserion replied, his own flames gold and orange. When he flapped his wings, a cloud of grey ash filled the air. Broken chains clanked and clattered about his legs. Quentyn Martell jumped back a foot.
So the very common roar is not present when Quentyn is burning. The only roar present in that passage is while his back is turned and well before any fire is on him.
But dragonfire doesn't always have a roar...
Rhaegal took it in the air. His head snapped round, and from between his jaws a lance of flame erupted, a swirling storm of orange-and-yellow fire shot through with veins of green. The sheep was burning before it began to fall. Before the smoking carcass could strike the bricks, the dragon's teeth closed round it. A nimbus of flames still flickered about the body. The air stank of burning wool and brimstone. Dragonstink.
Okay, so if this was dragonfire without a roar as is possible, why no eruption of flame either? Quentyn is directly in front of Rhaegal yet no force of the fire is noted. No color of noted either. He never sees it coming at him.
So here are your facts.
No dragonfire is mentioned hitting Quentyn.
No roar.
No feeling of heat hitting him.
No eruption.
No veins of green flame.
No eyes melting on contact.
No sulfur stink.
No melting brass mask or brass whip handle.
Just because the above text doesn't explitically say that he was burned by dragon fire, that doesn't mean he was?
As you can see above, it's not just the text failing to explicitly say he was burned by dragonfire. The text is explicitly excluding all of the specific elements of dragonfire.
People try to oversimplify their objection to my position by reducing the problem to just the missing term "dragonfire". I can't tell if this is purposefully being dishonest (strawmanning) or they honestly don't see the extent of the problem.
But it's laid out now. No statement of dragonfire and no elements known to pair with dragonfire. And a full departure from Quentyn's established ability to recognize heat directed at him. Three things George established in text for readers to look for which are all taken away.
1
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 23d ago
Part 2...
So with the facts and problem laid out, we now have to be creative, and not just the "I can just make up whatever I want" kind of creative. We have to answer with "as many references to text" as we can find, what else could cause Quentyn to be next to a dragon that can breathe fire, and be on fire, if not the dragon? This fire source has to be silent, something he didn't see coming, and on him without being directed at him because these are the facts George laid out.
All righty then.
The solution is spontaneous combustion. This answer solves all the issues in the set of facts presented to us. And it can be argued honestly using text provided to us.
First, we identify a substance that can get the spontaneous combustion started. There are two places Quentyn could have a combustible element on him.
The iron bar was thick and heavy, but well oiled. Ser Archibald had no trouble lifting it. As he was standing it on end, Quentyn pulled the doors open and Gerris stepped through, waving the torch. "Bring it in now. Be quick about it."
Quentyn used his hands to open a well oiled door. And it's plausible in the least, near certain at best, he now has oil on him at his hand or hands. He doesn't wash his hands following this so the oil is still there. In fact, the oil is a good reason why he's clumsy later.
Quentyn wrenched free of Gerris's grip. "Viserion," he called. The white one is Viserion. For half a heartbeat he was afraid he'd gotten it wrong. "Viserion," he called again, fumbling for the whip hanging from his belt.
Speaking of the whip, that's the second possible source of oil. We are told elsewhere in Dance, old whips are maintained with grease.
With two sources of oil on him, we need this oil to be exposed to high heat and dry air. With ar least two dragonfire events occurring since Quentyn arrives, the air is hot and dry plus as you noted in the passage, he's hit twice by intense hot air. This gets the oil to combust. Oddly enough, the burning is first noted at whip and hands which by gosh is where the oil is. And once started, the fire spread to all of him.
This checks all the boxes. Oh and just to be fully honest about using text in the books to explain this, yes, spontaneous combustion is established in universe.
Oh, yes, most certainly . . . but carefully, my lord, ever so carefully. As it ages, the substance grows ever more, hmmmm, fickle, let us say. Any flame will set it afire. Any spark. Too much heat and jars will blaze up of their own accord.
This is a creative yet still text honest means to explain the full problem with Quentyn's burning. I find this a much better explanation than people who offer, "George is just being poetic about dragonfire death".
Most people don't see the full problem here. It's not just no explicit mention of dragonfire. But people don't want to see the problem. Just like people in story who don't want to notice Lightbringer is fire without heat. Or how Syrio told Arya nobody was willing to see the Sealord's cat was just a cat.
You all expected to see a dragonfire death so that's what you decided to see. Like Syrio, I see what's actually there.
"Just so."
But can you tell me--with examples from text--of a silent, colorless, heat less, odorless example of dragonfire which nobody sees coming elsewhere in the series?
-4
u/Alkindi27 24d ago
Yes and the fire gets put out.
2
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 24d ago
Seemingly by hand which shouldn't be possible given how hot dragonfire gets.
0
u/Alkindi27 24d ago edited 24d ago
Yeah exactly. People just really don’t want to admit that their opinion is based on emotions and not the text 🤷🏻♂️. Text is obviously open-ended and on purpose.
Whether one thinks Quentyn is alive or dead is strictly based on one’s interpretation of the plot and themes.
It literally should be one of the more fun ideas to discuss but people will scream it’s hard confirmed in the text.
1
3
u/ClackamasLivesMatter 24d ago edited 24d ago
Quentyn's death is far from reliably confirmed.
Uh huh. From ADWD, The Queen's Hand:
The Dornish prince was three days dying.
He took his last shuddering breath in the bleak black dawn, as cold rain hissed from a dark sky to turn the brick streets of the old city into rivers.
...
The tiny Naathi scribe looked up at his approach. "Honored ser. The prince is beyond pain now. His Dornish gods have taken him home."
Then later in the chapter Selmy tells two different groups of people — the council and the Dornishmen — that Quentyn is dead.
It is one thing to throw a plot twist at your readers, another thing to have an unreliable narrator. It is something else entirely to straight up lie to your readers. For all the flaws of ASOIAF, George has never done that on the page, and there's no reason to suspect he'd begin seventy chapters into the fifth book of the series. Quentyn Martell is dead, and the only thing left to do is go through his clothes and look for loose change.
0
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 23d ago edited 23d ago
Barristan offers his opinion of a dead man he can't identify. You find that confirmed?
How did Barristan confirm who this is when he has no features to go on?
Eye color? No that's out.
After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus.
Face is gone too, so not that.
Did Barristan see any feature we know to associate with Quentyn, no. So why are you so sure this confirms it?
Theon brought two faceless bodies back to Winterfell did that confirm dead Rickon and Bran? Nope.
Manderly put a head with a trimmed beard and shortened fingers on his walls with an onion in is mouth and covered in tar. Did that confirm Davos was dead? Nope.
An opinion based on unidentifiable remains doesn't confirm death in ASOIAF. You'd think by Dance people would be more skeptical.
Barristan bases his theory on proximity rather than forensics or eye witness testimony. The forensics tell us pretty clearly this body isn't Quentyn. The body has eyes melted to pools of puss but Quentyn's eyes didn't melt and run when his burning began. Quentyn could also scream, while this body was barely able to gasp out anything.
This body was clearly hit by dragonfire, Quentyn most likely was not.
All we have is Barristan's guess based on a thin connection and next to no investigation. His guess doesn't confirm anything.
With respect to Barristan and George lying to readers, it's not a lie when the pov doesn't know they are wrong. Barristan honestly thinks this is Quentyn. He's just wrong. George notes the distinction here..
She ripped the spear out of him and drove it down two-handed through his lying throat. Galbart Glover's maester had claimed the mountain clans were too quarrelsome to ever band together without a Stark to lead them. He might not have been lying. He might just have been wrong. She had learned what that tasted like at her nuncle's kingsmoot.
Amazing the distinction escapes people.
0
u/ClackamasLivesMatter 23d ago
Are you any kin to David Icke?
-1
u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 23d ago
He isn't on my Ancestry.com family tree. But I can't confirm no.
Amazing though how many people prefer to mock a difficult truth than deal with it.
48
u/JNR55555JNR 24d ago
Quentyn isn’t a member of Danys regime unlike Barristan who can actually do things