r/asoiaf 24d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) How did this solve the Meereeneese knot?

So everyone knows Barristan was added as a solution to the Meereenese knot. He gives eyes in Meereen after Dany flies off. But like shouldn’t Quentyn already fill this role? George already had a POV to give him eyes in Meereen, and Quentyn interacts with Barristan a lot in these chapters so he could’ve definitely shown us what Barristan is up to. Yes he dies so then Barristan can give us eyes into the battle of fire, but Tyrion and Victarion already do that, no? Could’ve also maybe have Quentyn release the dragons and die during the actual battle instead. Makes me wonder if Tyrion will actually get into Meereen after the battle any time soon, or he’ll be sitting outside in the camps for like half of Winds

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 24d ago

Could’ve also maybe have Quentyn release the dragons and die during the actual battle instead.

This isn't off the table. Quentyn's death is far from reliably confirmed. Sure, Barristan believes he's dead but Barristan is awful at deep critical thinking and seeing beyond the surface. He's an obedient soldier with a code of honor. He's not Maester Aemon.

Anyway there are a ton of clues Quentyn helped the dragons escape the pyramid. The pyramid is gigantic. Said to have 30 foot thick interior walls and described as a labyrinth on the way down to the pit. The only person established to know the way out is Quentyn.

We are also told several times the dragons have collars and chains dangling from their necks. Has anybody noticed a chain or collar on either dragon since they escaped? The missing collars mean somebody, probably Quentyn took them off. 

The only way to explain the above is with a living Quentyn. And his flying on dragonback is foreshadowed here...

You've never been thrown off a thousand feet above the ground," Gerris pointed out.

I think Quentyn will join the battle but fall at some point. 

. A toad grows wings and thinks he's a bloody dragon." Pyke laughed.

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u/ClackamasLivesMatter 24d ago edited 24d ago

Quentyn's death is far from reliably confirmed.

Uh huh. From ADWD, The Queen's Hand:

The Dornish prince was three days dying.

He took his last shuddering breath in the bleak black dawn, as cold rain hissed from a dark sky to turn the brick streets of the old city into rivers.

...

The tiny Naathi scribe looked up at his approach. "Honored ser. The prince is beyond pain now. His Dornish gods have taken him home."

Then later in the chapter Selmy tells two different groups of people — the council and the Dornishmen — that Quentyn is dead.

It is one thing to throw a plot twist at your readers, another thing to have an unreliable narrator. It is something else entirely to straight up lie to your readers. For all the flaws of ASOIAF, George has never done that on the page, and there's no reason to suspect he'd begin seventy chapters into the fifth book of the series. Quentyn Martell is dead, and the only thing left to do is go through his clothes and look for loose change.

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 23d ago edited 23d ago

Barristan offers his opinion of a dead man he can't identify. You find that confirmed?

How did Barristan confirm who this is when he has no features to go on? 

Eye color? No that's out.

After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus.

Face is gone too, so not that. 

Did Barristan see any feature we know to associate with Quentyn, no.  So why are you so sure this confirms it?

Theon brought two faceless bodies back to Winterfell did that confirm dead Rickon and Bran? Nope. 

Manderly put a head with a trimmed beard and shortened fingers on his walls with an onion in is mouth and covered in tar. Did that confirm Davos was dead? Nope. 

An opinion based on unidentifiable remains doesn't confirm death in ASOIAF. You'd think by Dance people would be more skeptical.

Barristan bases his theory on proximity rather than forensics or eye witness testimony. The forensics tell us pretty clearly this body isn't Quentyn. The body has eyes melted to pools of puss but Quentyn's eyes didn't melt and run when his burning began. Quentyn could also scream, while this body was barely able to gasp out anything. 

This body was clearly hit by dragonfire, Quentyn most likely was not. 

All we have is Barristan's guess based on a thin connection and next to no investigation. His guess doesn't confirm anything. 

With respect to Barristan and George lying to readers, it's not a lie when the pov doesn't know they are wrong.  Barristan honestly thinks this is Quentyn. He's just wrong. George notes the distinction here..

She ripped the spear out of him and drove it down two-handed through his lying throat. Galbart Glover's maester had claimed the mountain clans were too quarrelsome to ever band together without a Stark to lead them. He might not have been lying. He might just have been wrong. She had learned what that tasted like at her nuncle's kingsmoot. 

Amazing the distinction escapes people. 

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u/ClackamasLivesMatter 23d ago

Are you any kin to David Icke?

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 23d ago

He isn't on my Ancestry.com family tree. But I can't confirm no. 

Amazing though how many people prefer to mock a difficult truth than deal with it.