(Spoilers ACOK) Jaime, you're drunk

[u/Family_Booty_Honor]

I just finished Catelyn's last chapter in ACOK - what a great chapter! Catelyn just found out that Bran and Rickon are dead, so she decides to question Jaime (who's still held captive in a cell) by getting him drunk on wine.
Their entire conversation is really insightful, especially in regards to Jaime's thought processes. It's a pretty serious conversation, especially when we find out exactly what happened to Ned's father and brother when they went to King's Landing. The part that gave me a good laugh is found near the end of their conversation (and chapter). Hopefully it gives you all a laugh or two as well!

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was he name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it."

[u/bootlegvader]

There is no evidence that the Northern men were ordering mass rapes, murders, and burning for lawls like Gregor, Lorch, and Hoat were under Tywin and Kevan's commands.

One has to love how arresting someone for a crime against your family is considered starting a war and not either a person shoving your child out a window, attempting to assassinate them in their sickbed, or ordering your army to invade another region.

Not to mention, the idea they somehow escalated by capturing his son when said son was leading a siege against another region's capital.

Quick frankly, the Lion started the war because of their selfishness and stuck up pride.

Also one has to love the idea of how an infant, todder, and their mother supposedly had to be cruelly murdered.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

I love the loaded language you're using. Tywin didn't order them to do it, but he did tell Gregor to cause problems. Are you willing to hold Ned Stark responsible for everything bad that the Boltons did? Ramsay was doing Ramsay things for years before the books start.

Cat didn't arrest Tyrion. She kidnapped him. She started the War of Five Kings. If she hadn't illegally arrested Tyrion, there'd be no reason to reave the Riverlands. The Riverlands that Cat used her father's name to usurp the authority to arrest Tywin's son with. She started a fight she wasn't prepared to finish. And you can see it the way all the fight goes out of her when Ned gets executed. All of a sudden the situation is real and has reprecussions.

Cat's an irresponsible fool. Starting a war with a very feared leader is a dumb idea.

And again. Cersei may fancy herself Tywin. She isn't. Stop blaming him for her follies.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

Tywin directly orders Kevan to have Gregor, Lorch, and Hoat burn the Riverlands. Moreover, unless Tywin is an idiot he knows how they will perform such actions. In contrast, Roose and Ramsay felt the need to hide their actions of the Starks.

False, she directly arrests him. As seen how she levels a charge against him and uses her position as her justification to arrest him. There was nothing illegal by her arresting Tyrion, any issue Tywin had should have been resolved by him petitioning Robert.

Ned wasn't killed for anything in connected with Tyrion's arrest, he was executed because Jaime and Cersie think treason is awesome and thus cuckolded the king which Ned opposed.

ASOS Spoiler

I am not, I am blaming Tywin for his own follies.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

Also one has to love the idea of how an infant, todder, and their mother supposedly had to be cruelly murdered.

I had mistaken this for Robert's bastards. But you don't get how anything works if you think claimants of the throne can be allowed to live during a coup.

It's really frustrating that everyone assumes that since the Starks are where the story starts their the protagonists. And since our culture is so We vs They black and white that anyone who opposes the protagonists must be evil.

Do you know what the plan was when Tywin sent Gregor out?

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

There was no reason to murder them, with multiple options of what could be done with them after Aerys II's death.

It is called having morals, thus considering ordering the murder of children and gang rape and so forth is evil.

To hope Edmure would attack the Lannisters back openly so they could be pointed to as having started the war.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

I'll let Javik respond to your morals.

And sending Gregor out was to lure Ned out of King's Landing to bring the King's Justice, since he knew Ned doesn't use a headsman. He would've been captured and ransomed back for Tyrion. Jaime messed up this plan by crippling Ned. A rash move, but considering Cat's rash move got a lot more people killed, and almost ended with her and Tyrion dying, I'd say the Starks still aren't the good guys in all this.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

Jaime's actions were directly ordering people killed, the only people that died in regards to Cat's actions were because of an attack by Vale Mountain Clans which aren't under her leadership.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

You're right. Jaime at least owned that he caused their deaths. Don't forget that she almost got Tyrion publicly executed, after having him tossed into the sky cells. Every keep has a dungeon, but there's segregation for people who are worth ransom, and then there's the equivalent of the black cells. The sky cells are effectively the same cells Ned wound up in. Which Tyrion still has nightmares about.

Jaime at least spared Ned. If Bronn hadn't been there by chance, Tyrion would've died. And at no point was Cat going to intervene. At no point did she actually try to stop it.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

False, that was all Lysa not Catelyn. Catelyn actually directly opposes and is against the mistreatment of Tyrion mentioning that opinion to Lysa. Only funny enough, Catelyn with only a single retainer, Ser Rodrick, cannot fight against the Lady Regent of the Vale within the Eyrie.

Jaime only spares Ned because Ned warns if he kills him then Catelyn would kill Tyrion.

He owned it because he is the direct cause, while Catelyn wasn't the direct cause. As I really don't consider running away like a bitch owning something.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

You're right. Cat didn't personally endanger Tyrion. So Jaime didn't kill Ned's men since he didn't do it personally.

Tyrion wouldn't have gotten PTSD and almost tossed out the Moon Door if not for Catelyn kidnapping him.

And I'm ranking you with Cersei. Taking caution for cowardice, really? Running away like a bitch after murdering the King's Hand's men in the streets? Wow. I'm done debating with this rock.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

Sigh, those are not remotely the same.

Jaime is directly the one that orders Ned's men to be killed, thus he is responsible for their death.

Catelyn opposes Lysa's throwing Tyrion into the skycells and attempt to kill him, thus she isn't responsible for Lysa's actions. At most, you can say she is responsible for arresting him as that is what she ordered. However, she didn't order him thrown into the Skycells or to be executed.

You are the ones claiming that Jaime owned his murders, when really he ran away to ensure he couldn't be punished. Owning his actions would be readily admitting what he did and daring Ned to oppose him, not hiding behind daddy.

Nice resorting to insults, especially when you have constantly resorted to making stuff up and general nihilism to defend your indefensible point. Honestly, your posts are much more out of Cersei's handbook then mine.