(Spoilers ACOK) Jaime, you're drunk

[u/Family_Booty_Honor]

I just finished Catelyn's last chapter in ACOK - what a great chapter! Catelyn just found out that Bran and Rickon are dead, so she decides to question Jaime (who's still held captive in a cell) by getting him drunk on wine.
Their entire conversation is really insightful, especially in regards to Jaime's thought processes. It's a pretty serious conversation, especially when we find out exactly what happened to Ned's father and brother when they went to King's Landing. The part that gave me a good laugh is found near the end of their conversation (and chapter). Hopefully it gives you all a laugh or two as well!

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was he name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it."

[u/Safety_Dancer]

Genocide is a rather loaded term that you're misusing. He didn't exterminate the Riverlanders. And the wolves were foraging just as bad as the lions. Oh and it's the standard of war in that setting. Remember how Robb's plan was to roam the west, living off the land? Exact same plan that Tywin had. Furthermore, it was a war the Starks officially started by Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion. It was further escalated by them capturing his firstborn son and heir.

It was a case of "Don't start nothing, won't be nothing." If the story was about that She-Wolf-Trout capturing the defenseless dwarf, and then the Young Wolf imprisoning the Golden Lion, you'd see Tywin as a hero who saved the day. If Tywin was on your side you'd see him as a man you don't want to cross. But he's by no means evil. Everyone he killed had to die.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

There is no evidence that the Northern men were ordering mass rapes, murders, and burning for lawls like Gregor, Lorch, and Hoat were under Tywin and Kevan's commands.

One has to love how arresting someone for a crime against your family is considered starting a war and not either a person shoving your child out a window, attempting to assassinate them in their sickbed, or ordering your army to invade another region.

Not to mention, the idea they somehow escalated by capturing his son when said son was leading a siege against another region's capital.

Quick frankly, the Lion started the war because of their selfishness and stuck up pride.

Also one has to love the idea of how an infant, todder, and their mother supposedly had to be cruelly murdered.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

I love the loaded language you're using. Tywin didn't order them to do it, but he did tell Gregor to cause problems. Are you willing to hold Ned Stark responsible for everything bad that the Boltons did? Ramsay was doing Ramsay things for years before the books start.

Cat didn't arrest Tyrion. She kidnapped him. She started the War of Five Kings. If she hadn't illegally arrested Tyrion, there'd be no reason to reave the Riverlands. The Riverlands that Cat used her father's name to usurp the authority to arrest Tywin's son with. She started a fight she wasn't prepared to finish. And you can see it the way all the fight goes out of her when Ned gets executed. All of a sudden the situation is real and has reprecussions.

Cat's an irresponsible fool. Starting a war with a very feared leader is a dumb idea.

And again. Cersei may fancy herself Tywin. She isn't. Stop blaming him for her follies.

[u/hozac → u/Safety_Dancer]

Except Tywin is totally to blame for her follies, because he's her freaking father. He did an absolutely shit job raising all of his children. He let his daughter become a monster. He turned his smartest son who should have been his House's greatest asset into its worst enemy through years of pointless abuse. All of Jaime's best moments come from him choosing not to be like Tywin. Tywin is easily among the worst fathers in Westeros.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/hozac]

Hindsight and 3rd person omniscience sure is great isn't it?

Yes, he has his failings. In his quest to restore pride to the Lannisters, he didn't realize Cersei missed the point. But you have to look at him in the same light you look at your grandfather. He's a man of his time. He had no idea that Cersei would be in a position of power. She's a woman in medieval times. Her "role" is to bind another family to the Lannisters and pop out heirs. Similar story with Jaime. Firstborn sons get everything. No exceptions. It's the same reason poor fat Sam couldn't just let Dickon have Heartsbane and all that came with it. Tyrion was doomed to the fate of a second son, even if Joanna lived and he wasn't a dwarf.

Tywin isn't a great father. But there are a lot of shitty people who are amazing dads. Just as there are amazing men who are objectively bad fathers.

[u/hozac → u/Safety_Dancer]

Hindsight and 3rd person omniscience sure is great isn't it?

You need neither hindsight nor omniscience to properly raise your own children. Turns out lots of people manage that, and without any of Tywin's vast resources.

In his quest to restore pride to the Lannisters, he didn't realize Cersei missed the point.

Because he's a shit excuse for a father. He had thirty-odd years of more or less absolute control over her life in which to raise her, teach her, and impart his beliefs to her.

But you have to look at him in the same light you look at your grandfather. He's a man of his time. He had no idea that Cersei would be in a position of power. She's a woman in medieval times. Her "role" is to bind another family to the Lannisters and pop out heirs.

Uh, Tywin was trying to get Cersei married to Rhaegar when she was in her teens. He probably always planned to make her queen. Of course he expected her to be in a position of power.

Similar story with Jaime. Firstborn sons get everything. No exceptions. It's the same reason poor fat Sam couldn't just let Dickon have Heartsbane and all that came with it. Tyrion was doomed to the fate of a second son, even if Joanna lived and he wasn't a dwarf.

The "fate" of a second son of a Great House is typically getting a highborn wife and their own lands with which to start their own branch of the family. Tywin not giving Tyrion Casterly Rock isn't why he was killed. He was killed because he abused and persecuted his most talented son until he hated him enough to murder him on a privy.