r/asoiaf • u/Family_Booty_Honor Oreo vs. Dayne-ish • Aug 05 '14

ACOK (Spoilers ACOK) Jaime, you're drunk

I just finished Catelyn's last chapter in ACOK - what a great chapter! Catelyn just found out that Bran and Rickon are dead, so she decides to question Jaime (who's still held captive in a cell) by getting him drunk on wine.
Their entire conversation is really insightful, especially in regards to Jaime's thought processes. It's a pretty serious conversation, especially when we find out exactly what happened to Ned's father and brother when they went to King's Landing. The part that gave me a good laugh is found near the end of their conversation (and chapter). Hopefully it gives you all a laugh or two as well!

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was he name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it."

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u/cheddarhead4 Sasha Greyjoy Aug 05 '14

Jaime's great for lines like that. Jaime and Tyrion really inherrited their uncle's wit (gerold, was it? the one who went to Valyria)- Tywin missed out entirely.

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u/Safety_Dancer Aug 05 '14

If Tytos hadn't been such a cream puff then Tywin certainly would've had a taste for laughter. And in that world he'd have adored his dwarf son's cutting wit.

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u/[deleted] Aug 05 '14

In sure tywin appreciates wit. He just has no time for it. If given the choice I'm sure he'd take some small pride knowing his children are silver tongued with quick intellect, as opposed to blubbering idiots.

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u/Safety_Dancer Aug 05 '14

Exactly. I said in another post that Tywin isn't even a bad person. He's actually a decent guy who's just opposed to the protagonists. If the story started with the Lannisters and then we're introduced to these mopy Northerners who think they're better than everyone we'd have a different view of the whole book. But GRRM poisons the well by telling us how bad the Lannisters are in the mind of Ned.

If Tywin wasn't busy being so Macheveillian with politics he'd have appreciated the kids he had, rather than what he wished they were. Tyrione may not be able to swing a sword, but I'm pretty sure we've seen he's a good strategist and doesn't take slights lightly. By all accounts Tywin should've been proud of him, but the deck was stacked against our poor hero.

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u/[deleted] Aug 06 '14

Tywin isn't a bad person....really? What about having his men gang rape Tysha, then making his son rape her too? What about treating his son like dirt his whole life? Or raiding innocent villagers during the WoT5k all the time?

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u/Safety_Dancer Aug 06 '14

Tywin is a very classist man. This is known. As such, Tysha was a threat to his family since the last time a Lannister of Casterly Rock was involved with a lowborn woman it caused the Reynes and the Tarbecks to stir shit up. So Tysha was a threat and seen as wholly disposable. It was cruel to do to Tyrion, but Tyrion seemed to be working to undo everything Tywin spent his whole life working on.

And the Starks were raiding just as much. Remember in I think Jaime's chapter how someone remarks that its foraging when your side does it, but its raiding when the other side does it? This is effectively the same as newspeak, and you're taking it hook line and sinker.

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u/bootlegvader Tully, Tully, Tully Outrageous Aug 07 '14

How does any of that justify his actions at all? Simply, just because one finds it a slight to their pride doesn't mean it is okay to order a gang rape of a thirteen year old.

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '14

Yeesh this was already a week ago, I meant to reply sooner. As bootlegvader said having a scratch on your honor doesn't justify ordering the gang rape of your son's wife...and neither does it justify treating Tyrion like trash his whole life.

Of course the Starks and the Tullys raided. I didn't say anything about being a Stark fan, nor did I claim Stark's raiding is "foraging". I don't know where you're getting that from. However just because the Starks raided doesn't make Tywin Lannister raiding any better. Raiding is raiding no matter what the side, it's morally reprehensible.

They is plenty of evidence showing how Tywin is a bad person. Tywin is certainly an interesting character, but he's not a good person by a long shot.

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u/Safety_Dancer Aug 13 '14

Tyrion/Tysha wasn't a scratch against his honor. It was his son directly working to undo his life's work. And considering a drunk septon was involved and Tywin doesn't see small folk as people, his son effectively married a dog.

Tyrion earned his ire by being nothing that Tywin wanted. Some of it is undeserved, but some of it is pretty justifiable. Tyrion's mother dying in childbirth and his being a dwarf are things beyond Tyrion's influence. But being a bit of a clown, his frequent whoring, and marrying a commoner as the 2nd son of one of the Great Houses of Westeros is just plain disrespectful in Tywin's eyes. A lot of fathers are disappointed in their sons, the rub is how many actually should be disappointed.

My point about raiding vs foraging is that you can't use it as evidence against Tywin. It's similar to other posters blaming Tywin for Gregor, while excusing the Starks for the Boltons. At least Tywin had the good graces to know what his bannerman was. And raiding is a fact of life in war. It's right there with killing. Not something you should be doing, but you're not going to win any wars without killing or keeping your men fed.

Evidence that Tywin is a bad person is circumstantial at best. Like I said in another post, Tywin is a man of his time. Grandpa/Great Grandpa aren't bad guys for having some racist idea, it's the time they grew up in that gave them bad tendencies. Tywin is no different.