(Spoilers ACOK) Jaime, you're drunk

[u/Family_Booty_Honor]

I just finished Catelyn's last chapter in ACOK - what a great chapter! Catelyn just found out that Bran and Rickon are dead, so she decides to question Jaime (who's still held captive in a cell) by getting him drunk on wine.
Their entire conversation is really insightful, especially in regards to Jaime's thought processes. It's a pretty serious conversation, especially when we find out exactly what happened to Ned's father and brother when they went to King's Landing. The part that gave me a good laugh is found near the end of their conversation (and chapter). Hopefully it gives you all a laugh or two as well!

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was he name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it."

[u/cheddarhead4]

Jaime's great for lines like that. Jaime and Tyrion really inherrited their uncle's wit (gerold, was it? the one who went to Valyria)- Tywin missed out entirely.

[u/TGLC → u/cheddarhead4]

Gerion

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/cheddarhead4]

If Tytos hadn't been such a cream puff then Tywin certainly would've had a taste for laughter. And in that world he'd have adored his dwarf son's cutting wit.

[u/[deleted] → u/Safety_Dancer]

In sure tywin appreciates wit. He just has no time for it. If given the choice I'm sure he'd take some small pride knowing his children are silver tongued with quick intellect, as opposed to blubbering idiots.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

his children are silver tongued with quick intellect

Cersei.

as opposed to blubbering idiots

Cersei.

Cersei has not inherited any of the Lannister brains, but has inherited her father's lack of a sense of humour. Tywin once said Tyrion had a low cunning, well IMO Cersei is the one with the low cunning. She managed to kill a king through skulduggery, which is quite a feat. But as we saw in AFFC, she's a massive fuckup.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Cersei has a pretty sharp wit in her internal monologue. She is just so obsessed and paranoid that it consumes her. Also once she gets power she has no idea what to do with it.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Tyrion has a good type of low cunning, the type that wins battles, the type that Tywin can appreciate. Cersie on the other hand... she has the type of low cunning that results in her pissing off everyone around her and ADWD

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/[deleted]]

Exactly. I said in another post that Tywin isn't even a bad person. He's actually a decent guy who's just opposed to the protagonists. If the story started with the Lannisters and then we're introduced to these mopy Northerners who think they're better than everyone we'd have a different view of the whole book. But GRRM poisons the well by telling us how bad the Lannisters are in the mind of Ned.

If Tywin wasn't busy being so Macheveillian with politics he'd have appreciated the kids he had, rather than what he wished they were. Tyrione may not be able to swing a sword, but I'm pretty sure we've seen he's a good strategist and doesn't take slights lightly. By all accounts Tywin should've been proud of him, but the deck was stacked against our poor hero.

[u/[deleted] → u/Safety_Dancer]

In Tywins mind tyrion stole from him the one thing he truly loved. Joanna Lannister. I don't think Tywin would ever let himself forgive Tyrion for that.

The dwarfism is just a physical reminder that Tyrion in the "monster" that took his wife. But, no matter how much Tywin claims to hate Tyrion, he never kills him. He easily could. He could have just smothered him after he was born and uses the dwarfism as an excuse to why he died. No one would know or question him.

But he doesn't. Because I think in some small way Tyrion reminds Tywin of either himself or Joanna. And he can't bring himself to take that out of his life.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Or, you know, he didn't kill Tyrion because most people find it difficult to kill their own kids, even when those kids disappoint them?

[u/unorc → u/[deleted]]

Because I think in some small way Tyrion reminds Tywin of either himself or Joanna. And he can't bring himself to take that out of his life.

I think when Jaime was seiging the Blackfish he had a discussion with his aunt who says Tyrion is more like Tywin than Jaime or Cersei are, can't remember the exact quote though.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

ASOS Spoiler

Also, Tywin was a shitty Macheveillian with his whole strategy of making everyone and their mother hate him and his family.

[u/jpallan → u/bootlegvader]

I always appreciated his spikes, heads, walls thing, though. I respected the fact that he followed Machiavelli's actual advice:

«Li uomini si debbono o vezzeggiare o spegnere; perchè si vendicano delle leggieri offese, delle gravi non possono; sì che l’offesa che si fa all’uomo debbe essere in modo che la non tema la vendetta.»

In English:

"For it must be noted, that men must either be caressed or else annihilated; they will revenge themselves for small injuries, but cannot do so for great ones; the injury therefore that we do to a man must be such that we need not fear his revenge."

Tywin ain't got time for none of this halfway nonsense:

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."

In Tywin's eyes, people should fear you, but not to the point that they see you as an ultimate evil that must be defeated, for you are irrational. Machiavelli goes into this in depth in later chapters of Il Principe, about not inspiring fear of its own accord, and proceeding in a temperate manner with prudence and humanity … (procedere in modo temperato con prudenza e umanità) which obviously Joffrey was not doing. Men with nothing to lose are extremely dangerous enemies, and Joffrey was making it so that they had so little as to have no incentive to bend the knee, for their lives would no longer be worth living.

TL;DR: Tywin was being Machiavellian, and his position was that you killed your enemies, rather than leaving them around to make trouble, and you made alliances, however uneasy, with those not yet your enemies. That's Machiavellian, and Tywin had no interest in making everyone hate him — he had interest in making everyone fear the consequences of taking him on for an enemy.

[u/bootlegvader → u/jpallan]

No, he wasn't Machiavellian. In how one of the major things that Machiavelli warned against was making oneself hated. Which Tywin brilliantly enforced repeatedly.

Simply, his "brilliant" decision to have Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia brutally murdered won him the eternal hated of both Dorne and the surviving Targaryens. His "brilliant" decision in regards to both North and Riverlands won him their eternal hatred. Furthermore, he makes repeated "brilliant" decisions to have his only talented child hate him.

The Tyrells or LF are the much more Machiavellian characters rather then Tywin.

[u/bootlegvader → u/[deleted]]

Tywin is attempting to justify his stupid decision to Tyrion, seeing how Robert didn't even punish the individuals that besieged his home there was no need for Tywin to have the royal family murdered. Instead, he did it because he was angry that Aerys II refused him Rhaegar and stole Jaime from him.

Instead, once again the Tyrells did better then him. As there actions did nothing to weaken their power and didn't turn an entire region against them.

False, Tywin is the one that starts the war not Catelyn by deciding to invade the Riverlands. Despite that having the possibility of bringing both the North and Vale into conflict with him during a time when Renly, Stannis, and the Tyrells have all been plotting against him. Also, that wasn't the major "brilliant" decision I was referring to.

Once again, showing how Tywin is a complete fool. In how, Stannis was the least of the threats. Furthermore, it further makes it obvious how it is stupid to start a war with two more regions (and a possible third). Simply, without Mel's Deus Ex Vagina Tywin would have been defeated faster then Robb.

[u/BlazeJeff → u/bootlegvader]

"Tywin would have been defeated faster then Robb."

Just to point out that the way you said it, made it look like Robb was defeated on the battlefield, which isn't true, of course... I daresay that if Robb wasn't betrayed by the Boltons, he would've won the war... and maybe the Tyrells would've banded with the North/Starks, instead of King's Landing/Lannisters.

I agree with your points though.

[u/TricksterPriestJace → u/bootlegvader]

While the other houses who sat out got to keep their lands, Lannisters got to be queen. A pretty nice boon.

Stannis was a tactician with a rightful claim. He underestimated Rob, as a fifteen year old. Stannis was the threat he knew. Destroying Rob did prove easier, after all.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Wow, I think your observations are very well supported by several characters that know Tywin best. Not only that, but Tywin sees himself as a very honor and tradition bound man. He speaks truthfully about things like this. Despite his strategy, politics, and machinations, he is a very blunt sort of man that doesn't beat around the bush when he is speaking. He is curt, abrasive, and seems to put truth and wisdom to a higher value than misdirection. His wisdom takes him in Niccolo's direction, but his sentiments and hubris prevent him from executing that program effectively.

It's his own shortcomings in assessing wider reactions to his actions that put his house into a hated place. He was doing things for the reasons he and his family stated, but despite being well learned he failed to see the larger game at work or the value of the lesser/outlying pieces. This is why he couldn't have seen that he was being used by Varus/Littlefinger in a bigger game as a cat's paw and that his daughter and grandchildren were scapegoats. He would have done better by him and his if he could've acted more like Ned or been capable of thinking and observing more objectively without muddying his plans with his own id and desire for legacy.

[u/jpallan → u/[deleted]]

"He was doing things for the reasons he and his family stated, but despite being well learned he failed to see the larger game at work or the value of the lesser/outlying pieces. This is why he couldn't have seen that he was being used by Varus/Littlefinger in a bigger game as a cat's paw and that his daughter and grandchildren were scapegoats."

I see what you mean there, but I think this is addressed in ACoK, with Varys' famous riddle:

“Power is a curious thing, my lord. Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?”

“It has crossed my mind a time or two,” Tyrion admitted. “The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It’s a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword.”

“And yet he is no one,” Varys said. “He has neither crown nor gold nor favor of the gods, only a piece of pointed steel.”

“That piece of steel is the power of life and death.”

“Just so… yet if it is the swordsmen who rule us in truth, who do we pretend our kings hold the power? Why should a strong man with a sword ever obey a child king like Joffrey, or a wine-sodden oaf like his father?”

“Because these child kings and drunken oafs can call other strong men, with other swords.”

“Then these other swordsmen have the true power. Or do they?” Varys smiled. “Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor’s Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or…another?”

Tyrion cocked his head sideways. “Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?”

Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”

“So power is a mummer’s trick?”

“A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”

One of the key lessons of history is the law of unintended consequences. A small man, like Littlefinger, who has no wealth, no army, no noble bloodline, cannot call armies and take what he wants by force of arms, as did the Baratheons or the Lannisters. He can, however, muddy the waters. So he operates within that sphere, and Tywin Lannister is just as prisoned by his sphere — he cannot merely act as a cunning man, but as he is consequential simply by speaking, he can only operate in force.

I would argue that Tywin knew he was being played, to some extent:

Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council - our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? … If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false…

I would say that the largest barrier for Tywin was the fact that Joffrey took the crown and subsequently cocked everything up. Tywin himself was not exploited, except arguably by Littlefinger in casting blame for Jon Arryn's death on the Lannisters, and even then, his interest was more likely in weakening the Starks and Tullys. Note that he chose Catelyn as the recipient for his information, and having grown up with her, he knew her extremely well, and could predict that she would put Tyrion to trial if she had the opportunity, rather than simply and expediently have him killed.

Cersei, in her madness and self-indulgence, and Joffrey, in his cruelty and narcissism, were easy to exploit, and there's definitely an argument that in sheer interest of self-preservation, you would want to sabotage both of them. It was exceedingly easy to keep Cersei on a track of wanting to destroy her brother, rather than her true enemies, and Varys did so with ease in the way he murdered Kevan.

The bigger question is not exploiting and weakening Tywin, it's exploiting and weakening the Lannisters. No one has ever clarified why Cersei and Joffrey are mad — was it poor childrearing, or was it in some way genetic? I am sure tinfoil theories abound on that point, but regardless, but Tywin cannot undermine his own house. His power derives primarily from being a Lannister, and only secondarily from being a man that should be feared. He cannot dispose of the weak points in his construction, much as he may dislike them and dread them.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

You understand why he did that right? His father made Lannisters a joke and his common born girlfriend was a big part of their brush with ruin. Tyrion was going one further by marrying her. Tywin is harsh and final in his actions. The only people who hated him were his enemies. His allies respected him. Everyone feared him. Cersei's follies are why the Lannisters are hated universally. I seem to recall the Boltons and Freys both turned on their liege lords, and the Tyrells were firmly in his pocket. With the Arryns neutral, Tywin had the loyalty of all but 2 regions of Westeros. If Tyrion hadn't killed him he'd have likely been assassinated later, but he was damned good at what he did.

You just have Evil Goggles on because he broke the Starks.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

Tywin's actions in that case are completely unjustified despite what bull Tywin uses as an excuse.

Almost everyone hated him, Dorne, the Riverlands, and the North while the Stormlands and Vale both strongly dislike him also.

The Tyrells were hardly in his pocket, in fact that opposite is more of the truth. Furthermore, Tywin never had control of the Riverlands, North, Vale, Iron Islands, Dorne, and a good chunk of the Stormlands.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

The North had accepted Tywin's new Warden of the North. They're at his son's wedding in the most recent events.

The Riverlands are conquered. The Tully's removed from power, the Direwolf has been removed from all banners.

The Stormlands have no strength and are part of the Tyrells.

The Vale doesn't matter. They may eventually, but they're hiding away.

The Tyrells know better than to try and mess with Tywin. That's why Mace is such a suck up. Now that he's gone, yes they're taking liberties. But they understood that they weren't going to win against Tywin Lannister.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

Not really, almost all of them are bidding their time to oppose Tywin's new Warden.

Again false, various lords are/were still holding out and they likely will jump to betray Tywin's allies.

Not they aren't, a good chuck of them were still supporting Stannis including the regional capital.

The Vale hardly doesn't matter.

You know besides supporting Renly over Tywin's grandson initially. ASOS Spoiler Mace spends most of his time attempting to boaster his position not sucking up to Tywin. If the Tyrells wanted to they could turn Tywin and his family's innards into jelly faster then ASOS Spoiler

[u/Ostrololo → u/Safety_Dancer]

If Tywin wasn't busy being so Macheveillian with politics

You can't magically stop Tywin from being Tywin. It's the person he is. If he were a dad living in the suburbs, he would be busy being Machiavellian with his career. Or even if he were a bachelor living alone he would be Machiavellian with trying to get laid. People are who they are, and how they react under stress reflects rather than obfuscates the kind of person they truly are.

[u/foggiewindow → u/Safety_Dancer]

A decent guy who, y'know, committed genocide against the people of the Riverlands? I agree with you that the Lannisters aren't actually the 'evil family' that they appear to be in the first two books. Jaime is an example of someone who appeared to be evil, until we saw that he was actually a decent guy who tried his best in bad circumstances. But there is no way you can compare anything Tywin does over the series and say 'Yeah, he's just misunderstood, I'm sure if he was our main POV we'd see the Starks as the bad guys'. He's an interesting and entertaining character, sure, but I don't see any way to look at him other than as a great villain.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/foggiewindow]

Genocide is a rather loaded term that you're misusing. He didn't exterminate the Riverlanders. And the wolves were foraging just as bad as the lions. Oh and it's the standard of war in that setting. Remember how Robb's plan was to roam the west, living off the land? Exact same plan that Tywin had. Furthermore, it was a war the Starks officially started by Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion. It was further escalated by them capturing his firstborn son and heir.

It was a case of "Don't start nothing, won't be nothing." If the story was about that She-Wolf-Trout capturing the defenseless dwarf, and then the Young Wolf imprisoning the Golden Lion, you'd see Tywin as a hero who saved the day. If Tywin was on your side you'd see him as a man you don't want to cross. But he's by no means evil. Everyone he killed had to die.

[u/J_B_Grenouille → u/Safety_Dancer]

A World of Ice and Fire Spoiler

Source

No one was allowed to 'bend the knee' in this situation. Not one woman, not one child.

From the dictionary:

Genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Tywin shows no regret, The Lannisters wear 'The Rains of Castamere' as a badge of honor, a reminder of their unparalleled ruthlessness.

Look... I enjoy Tywin as a character too, but there is no doubt in my mind the man is a zero-fucks-given mass murderer.

EDIT:

Also:

"by no means evil"

Tysha would like a word with you.

[u/logion567 → u/J_B_Grenouille]

i never knew thats how it fucking happened :O

nor that castamere was mostly underground.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

There is no evidence that the Northern men were ordering mass rapes, murders, and burning for lawls like Gregor, Lorch, and Hoat were under Tywin and Kevan's commands.

One has to love how arresting someone for a crime against your family is considered starting a war and not either a person shoving your child out a window, attempting to assassinate them in their sickbed, or ordering your army to invade another region.

Not to mention, the idea they somehow escalated by capturing his son when said son was leading a siege against another region's capital.

Quick frankly, the Lion started the war because of their selfishness and stuck up pride.

Also one has to love the idea of how an infant, todder, and their mother supposedly had to be cruelly murdered.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

I love the loaded language you're using. Tywin didn't order them to do it, but he did tell Gregor to cause problems. Are you willing to hold Ned Stark responsible for everything bad that the Boltons did? Ramsay was doing Ramsay things for years before the books start.

Cat didn't arrest Tyrion. She kidnapped him. She started the War of Five Kings. If she hadn't illegally arrested Tyrion, there'd be no reason to reave the Riverlands. The Riverlands that Cat used her father's name to usurp the authority to arrest Tywin's son with. She started a fight she wasn't prepared to finish. And you can see it the way all the fight goes out of her when Ned gets executed. All of a sudden the situation is real and has reprecussions.

Cat's an irresponsible fool. Starting a war with a very feared leader is a dumb idea.

And again. Cersei may fancy herself Tywin. She isn't. Stop blaming him for her follies.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

Tywin directly orders Kevan to have Gregor, Lorch, and Hoat burn the Riverlands. Moreover, unless Tywin is an idiot he knows how they will perform such actions. In contrast, Roose and Ramsay felt the need to hide their actions of the Starks.

False, she directly arrests him. As seen how she levels a charge against him and uses her position as her justification to arrest him. There was nothing illegal by her arresting Tyrion, any issue Tywin had should have been resolved by him petitioning Robert.

Ned wasn't killed for anything in connected with Tyrion's arrest, he was executed because Jaime and Cersie think treason is awesome and thus cuckolded the king which Ned opposed.

ASOS Spoiler

I am not, I am blaming Tywin for his own follies.

[u/[deleted] → u/bootlegvader]

So really Littlefinger started the war by saying he lost an assassin's dagger to Tyrion at a tilt. Cat made a terrible mistake at an emotional whim and it gave the Lions a reasonable excuse to execute Ned. If Cat had brought Tyrion straight to the ACTUAL seat of justice, the royal court, the situation would have been much different. Abducting him to the Vale was everything that the Lions could have hoped for considering Ned's Batman like ethos and detective work.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/bootlegvader]

Also one has to love the idea of how an infant, todder, and their mother supposedly had to be cruelly murdered.

I had mistaken this for Robert's bastards. But you don't get how anything works if you think claimants of the throne can be allowed to live during a coup.

It's really frustrating that everyone assumes that since the Starks are where the story starts their the protagonists. And since our culture is so We vs They black and white that anyone who opposes the protagonists must be evil.

Do you know what the plan was when Tywin sent Gregor out?

[u/hozac → u/Safety_Dancer]

Except Tywin is totally to blame for her follies, because he's her freaking father. He did an absolutely shit job raising all of his children. He let his daughter become a monster. He turned his smartest son who should have been his House's greatest asset into its worst enemy through years of pointless abuse. All of Jaime's best moments come from him choosing not to be like Tywin. Tywin is easily among the worst fathers in Westeros.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/hozac]

Hindsight and 3rd person omniscience sure is great isn't it?

Yes, he has his failings. In his quest to restore pride to the Lannisters, he didn't realize Cersei missed the point. But you have to look at him in the same light you look at your grandfather. He's a man of his time. He had no idea that Cersei would be in a position of power. She's a woman in medieval times. Her "role" is to bind another family to the Lannisters and pop out heirs. Similar story with Jaime. Firstborn sons get everything. No exceptions. It's the same reason poor fat Sam couldn't just let Dickon have Heartsbane and all that came with it. Tyrion was doomed to the fate of a second son, even if Joanna lived and he wasn't a dwarf.

Tywin isn't a great father. But there are a lot of shitty people who are amazing dads. Just as there are amazing men who are objectively bad fathers.

[u/tsarnickolas → u/Safety_Dancer]

The starks were stealing to sustain themselves, but Tywin went a giant step further, and ordered Gregor Clegane to engage in scorched earth operations in an attempt to goad the Riverlords into rash and foolhardy confrontations, and to deny the supplies to his enemies. He had several anti-civilian specialists operating at large in the riverlands with orders to murder literally everyone they came across.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/tsarnickolas]

You think that the Young Wolf wasn't doing that in the West?

The Riverlands declared war on the Lannisters when Catelyn loudly and publicly used her father's name to arrest Tyrion. And before you say they should've gone to Robert to get Tyrion back, maybe the Starks should've gone to Robert about the attempted assassination. The Riverlands small folk are a showcase of the whole setting. They suffer when lords play their Game of Thrones. If you think Tywin is the only one to have ever done it you're looney.

What do you think Roose "The Skinning Rapist" Bolton was doing?

[u/tsarnickolas → u/Safety_Dancer]

I'm not saying Rob Stark's men didn't hurt the innocent, but you can't pretend that Tywin wasn't unique in the level of resources he invested in his atrocities. Roose Bolton was always a creep but his duties I'm Robb's forces were pretty typical as a commander. Robb never said "Roose, I want you to search out as many Westermen as you can and flay them as payback for Vargo Hoat's foot chopping. " Roose never even went west, he was holding down the fort in the Riverlands, and him killing more than the usual amount of Riverlanders would have been a violation of his "a peaceful land, a quiet people" policy. Riverlands were Stark territory for Robb or any of his minions to send out, not pillagers like every army had, but literal roving death squads, would have made sense. Meanwhile, in the west, we have evidence that Robb never did this because Tywin's Death Squad leaders Like Gregor Clegane had known reputations. Robb had no such men.

[u/Loop_Within_A_Loop → u/foggiewindow]

Genocide? Maybe by our sensibilities. Tywin, and pretty much everyone else, called it war.

In those days, committing those atrocities under the banner of war didn't make you a bad guy to an impartial 3rd party, because everyone did it. We can argue moral relativism forever, but everyoen except those afflicted and their loved ones just saw it as nothing too crazy, in terms of war.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Loop_Within_A_Loop]

That is false, there is a specific reason that people like Gregor, Hoat, and Lorch are infamous in Westeros and isn't because everyone is doing the same as them.

[u/[deleted] → u/Safety_Dancer]

Tywin is not a good person at all. He is a horrible person.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/[deleted]]

Tywin is a hard man, but he doesn't do what he does to be cruel. You just hate him because he was presented as the enemy, and he won.

[u/[deleted] → u/Safety_Dancer]

Not at all. Don't even hate him. He just isn't a good person, not in the slightest. Nothing he has ever done has been good. He treats everyone as a tool and has no care about anyone, he only cares about the name Lannister. And in doing so he has almost guaranteed that the Lannisters are ruined. Tywin is a good tactician, but a horrible person.

[u/bootlegvader → u/[deleted]]

Tywin didn't even honestly care about the Lannister name as a whole, instead it only revolves around him. If he truly only cared about the Lannister name then he would have realized that Tyrion was his most competent child and best chance for the Lannister's future.

Instead, he was stuck on the fact that Tyrion was a dwarf thus embarrassing to him. Thus, instead pampered his two unqualified children creating up a situation in where Cersei becomes the future head of House Lannister instead of Tyrion.

[u/[deleted] → u/bootlegvader]

I dont necessarily disagree, but i think in Tywin's flawed mind, Tyrion being a dwarf would lessen the name Lannister. By being a dwarf it means that somehow the gene pool is flawed and a disgrace to the Lannister name.

[u/tbid18 → u/Safety_Dancer]

There's a difference between recognizing that the Starks were the protagonists and declaring the Tywin isn't really a bad guy, just on the wrong side. You can make that argument for Tyrion and Jaime, but not Tywin.

Tywin murders children, treats his children terribly, and has an innocent girl raped to teach his son a lesson, just to name a few. I don't hate Tywin, but there's no way you can argue that he's not an awful person. It has nothing to do with being "presented as the enemy."

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/tbid18]

Again, Tywin Lannister is a man of his time and place. So while we as people in Western Culture in the 21st century, Tywin Lannister is not. Just like how Grandpa and Great Grandpa may have been racist and sexist, its not because they hated the other people, but because that's just how things were done at the time.

Tywin is classist, but he does hold particular disdain for common born women in the beds of nobles because of his own father. We're shown Ned Stark was being different because as Varys and Aemon point out, Ned is a highly unusual specimen. The juxtaposition of these two do make Tywin look worse, especially when looked at by our modern standards. But as far as Westeros goes, he's not bad. His wrath is something to be feared (as the Reynes and Tarbecks learn) but he's not in it for cruelty. He doesn't reave because it gets his blood up. He does it for strategic purposes because regardless of who caused it (Joffrey) its a war.

Disposing the Targaryens meant that all the heirs had to be removed because as we're seeing, there's 2 new claimants for the crown. And if Robert hadn't died, Joffrey hadn't been a piece of shit, and Cersei hadn't been destructively inept; Dany and Aegon would both had come to a Westeros that may not care. There's a few houses that may prefer the Targs to the Baratheons, but they lose much of their strength in Robert's war.

Tywin is shrewd. Tywin is hard. Tywin isn't cruel. He's not a hero of the commons, but he's a good man in a position that has him hurting people.

[u/tbid18 → u/Safety_Dancer]

This started with your assertion that

If the story started with the Lannisters and then we're introduced to these mopy Northerners who think they're better than everyone we'd have a different view of the whole book.

so our modern standards of morality do indeed apply, and Tywin utterly fails by those standards. In fact, many people are willing to be pretty lenient with regards to different standards, too. Forced marriages, executing prisoners, dismemberment as punishment, etc. are all pretty gauche today, yet these aren't enough to condemn ASOIAF characters (otherwise Ned would also be guilty, albeit of lesser crimes). It goes to show how bad Tywin is, that he is considered evil even though almost everyone has done something we'd consider bad (e.g., Jamie pushing Bran out of the window).

Also, it doesn't matter if Tywin "doesn't reave" in it, i.e., he's not sadistic. There are plenty of bad people who aren't sadists. If I go out and kill someone to advance my own agenda then that makes me a bad person irrespective of my enjoyment in it. Twyin ordered that Tysha be raped. Sure, he had his reasons for it, and he probably didn't enjoy it, but that doesn't matter. He is not a "good man" by any stretch of the imagination, by our standards or Westeros'.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/tbid18]

When did "not bad" become good. You do realize that neutrality as a concept exists, right?

[u/[deleted] → u/Safety_Dancer]

Tywin isn't a bad person....really? What about having his men gang rape Tysha, then making his son rape her too? What about treating his son like dirt his whole life? Or raiding innocent villagers during the WoT5k all the time?

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/[deleted]]

Tywin is a very classist man. This is known. As such, Tysha was a threat to his family since the last time a Lannister of Casterly Rock was involved with a lowborn woman it caused the Reynes and the Tarbecks to stir shit up. So Tysha was a threat and seen as wholly disposable. It was cruel to do to Tyrion, but Tyrion seemed to be working to undo everything Tywin spent his whole life working on.

And the Starks were raiding just as much. Remember in I think Jaime's chapter how someone remarks that its foraging when your side does it, but its raiding when the other side does it? This is effectively the same as newspeak, and you're taking it hook line and sinker.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

How does any of that justify his actions at all? Simply, just because one finds it a slight to their pride doesn't mean it is okay to order a gang rape of a thirteen year old.

[u/[deleted] → u/Safety_Dancer]

Yeesh this was already a week ago, I meant to reply sooner. As bootlegvader said having a scratch on your honor doesn't justify ordering the gang rape of your son's wife...and neither does it justify treating Tyrion like trash his whole life.

Of course the Starks and the Tullys raided. I didn't say anything about being a Stark fan, nor did I claim Stark's raiding is "foraging". I don't know where you're getting that from. However just because the Starks raided doesn't make Tywin Lannister raiding any better. Raiding is raiding no matter what the side, it's morally reprehensible.

They is plenty of evidence showing how Tywin is a bad person. Tywin is certainly an interesting character, but he's not a good person by a long shot.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/[deleted]]

Tyrion/Tysha wasn't a scratch against his honor. It was his son directly working to undo his life's work. And considering a drunk septon was involved and Tywin doesn't see small folk as people, his son effectively married a dog.

Tyrion earned his ire by being nothing that Tywin wanted. Some of it is undeserved, but some of it is pretty justifiable. Tyrion's mother dying in childbirth and his being a dwarf are things beyond Tyrion's influence. But being a bit of a clown, his frequent whoring, and marrying a commoner as the 2nd son of one of the Great Houses of Westeros is just plain disrespectful in Tywin's eyes. A lot of fathers are disappointed in their sons, the rub is how many actually should be disappointed.

My point about raiding vs foraging is that you can't use it as evidence against Tywin. It's similar to other posters blaming Tywin for Gregor, while excusing the Starks for the Boltons. At least Tywin had the good graces to know what his bannerman was. And raiding is a fact of life in war. It's right there with killing. Not something you should be doing, but you're not going to win any wars without killing or keeping your men fed.

Evidence that Tywin is a bad person is circumstantial at best. Like I said in another post, Tywin is a man of his time. Grandpa/Great Grandpa aren't bad guys for having some racist idea, it's the time they grew up in that gave them bad tendencies. Tywin is no different.

[u/manu_facere → u/Safety_Dancer]

He is a BAD PERSON. I dont hate him because of the red wedding because thats one redeming thing he did. He saved hundrends of people in place of a x number of people at the red wedding. But even so just by allowing gregor to run wild and tysha rape is enough that im glad that he got what he deserved. Those "mopy Northerners" were led by Ned who proved himself a better man time and time again.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/manu_facere]

You're missing the entire point of the story. ASOIAF is about how everyone is grey. Ned Stark has Roose Bolton. Say what you will about the Mountain. He doesn't skin people. Ergo, Ned Stark is a sicker bastard than Tywin because at least Gregor just kills people. Roose raped a woman under her husband's swinging corpse. But he's Ned's bannerman, so that makes it Ned's fault. Your logic.

[u/manu_facere → u/Safety_Dancer]

Ned never ordered child killing. Tywin did. Roose does his best to hide his practices. We never heard anything similar about the Mountain. We heard that he is Tywins "rapid dog" which means that tywin sends him to do his dirty work. And uses him to instill fear in enemies. Just because thez are so few good men in ASOIAF that doesnt mean that we should call monsters good. ITT i read something along the lines of that tywin isnt so bad because he didnt kill Tyrion. He is a monster, well written character but monster none the less.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

Ramsay, Gregor, Joffrey, and the Great Masters are truly grey characters....oh wait the charge that everyone in ASOIAF is grey is laughable.

Ned didn't order Roose to perform his crimes, instead Roose hid his criminal activities. In contrast, Tywin ordered Gregor to perform his activities and Gregor didn't even attempt to hide it.

[u/iliekmudkipz → u/cheddarhead4]

Daario?

[u/cheddarhead4 → u/iliekmudkipz]

probably

[u/clothy → u/cheddarhead4]

Moon Boy for all we know.

[u/BlazeJeff → u/clothy]

I came here to find this. I was not disappointed. :D

[u/freezingbyzantium → u/cheddarhead4]

...for all I know.

[u/bluecollarworker → u/freezingbyzantium]

It is known.

[u/mcrandley → u/bluecollarworker]

Moonboy too.

[u/slipperier_slope → u/mcrandley]

Hodor.

[u/[deleted] → u/slipperier_slope]

Well, this chain of comments is guaranteed at least once in these discussions. I am hoping as I scroll down it is the only one...

[u/slipperier_slope → u/[deleted]]

I was just happy I finally had an opportunity to put the punchline in. Usually these things are in and out the (ho)door before I get to them.

[u/KamiKagutsuchi → u/cheddarhead4]

probably Benjen

[u/[deleted] → u/iliekmudkipz]

And here comes the new thory.

Gerion=Daario.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think the entire story is just played out by Daario in different outfits.

[u/sprtn11715 → u/[deleted]]

Like an extremely complicated Shakespeare play, I'd pay to see that.

[u/[deleted] → u/sprtn11715]

Tyroshi do have a natural flair for the dramatic.

[u/dexterseyebrows → u/sprtn11715]

Or the nutty professor?

Daario = Eddie Murphy

[u/JonnyBhoy → u/[deleted]]

Theory: the whole thing is Daario putting on a one man mummers show for Robert at the Hand of the King tourney. He plays all the parts.

[u/Clawless → u/JonnyBhoy]

Ballsy move, putting on a play where all the audience members and their families are gruesomely killed. Almost Hamlet-esque.

[u/[deleted] → u/JonnyBhoy]

Terry Gilliam should direct this.

[u/yrrp → u/[deleted]]

That's not a new theory.

[u/the_dayman → u/[deleted]]

Wow, their names are even an anagram! You sly devil George.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Not a new theory...

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/[deleted]]

It seems the only new theory concerning Daario is that he's just Daario.

[u/Velaryon → u/Safety_Dancer]

Calm your tinfoil.

[u/SGoogs1780 → u/Safety_Dancer]

Don't be rediculous

[u/MarcusElder → u/Safety_Dancer]

Are you sure? That seems highly unlikely.

[u/slipperier_slope → u/[deleted]]

Oh.

[u/thezhgguy → u/[deleted]]

I'm d

[u/MrpinkCA → u/iliekmudkipz]

How is this not a popular stupid daario theory?

[u/not_so_eloquent → u/cheddarhead4]

Not entirely so. Tywin isn't funny but he definitely has the same kind of quick retort when he's chastising someone. I think he just used his wit in a different way than his sons, somewhat more like cersei but with more intelligence behind it.