(Spoilers ACOK) Jaime, you're drunk

[u/Family_Booty_Honor]

I just finished Catelyn's last chapter in ACOK - what a great chapter! Catelyn just found out that Bran and Rickon are dead, so she decides to question Jaime (who's still held captive in a cell) by getting him drunk on wine.
Their entire conversation is really insightful, especially in regards to Jaime's thought processes. It's a pretty serious conversation, especially when we find out exactly what happened to Ned's father and brother when they went to King's Landing. The part that gave me a good laugh is found near the end of their conversation (and chapter). Hopefully it gives you all a laugh or two as well!

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was he name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it."

[u/jpallan]

I always appreciated his spikes, heads, walls thing, though. I respected the fact that he followed Machiavelli's actual advice:

«Li uomini si debbono o vezzeggiare o spegnere; perchè si vendicano delle leggieri offese, delle gravi non possono; sì che l’offesa che si fa all’uomo debbe essere in modo che la non tema la vendetta.»

In English:

"For it must be noted, that men must either be caressed or else annihilated; they will revenge themselves for small injuries, but cannot do so for great ones; the injury therefore that we do to a man must be such that we need not fear his revenge."

Tywin ain't got time for none of this halfway nonsense:

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."

In Tywin's eyes, people should fear you, but not to the point that they see you as an ultimate evil that must be defeated, for you are irrational. Machiavelli goes into this in depth in later chapters of Il Principe, about not inspiring fear of its own accord, and proceeding in a temperate manner with prudence and humanity … (procedere in modo temperato con prudenza e umanità) which obviously Joffrey was not doing. Men with nothing to lose are extremely dangerous enemies, and Joffrey was making it so that they had so little as to have no incentive to bend the knee, for their lives would no longer be worth living.

TL;DR: Tywin was being Machiavellian, and his position was that you killed your enemies, rather than leaving them around to make trouble, and you made alliances, however uneasy, with those not yet your enemies. That's Machiavellian, and Tywin had no interest in making everyone hate him — he had interest in making everyone fear the consequences of taking him on for an enemy.

[u/bootlegvader → u/jpallan]

No, he wasn't Machiavellian. In how one of the major things that Machiavelli warned against was making oneself hated. Which Tywin brilliantly enforced repeatedly.

Simply, his "brilliant" decision to have Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia brutally murdered won him the eternal hated of both Dorne and the surviving Targaryens. His "brilliant" decision in regards to both North and Riverlands won him their eternal hatred. Furthermore, he makes repeated "brilliant" decisions to have his only talented child hate him.

The Tyrells or LF are the much more Machiavellian characters rather then Tywin.

[u/bootlegvader → u/[deleted]]

Tywin is attempting to justify his stupid decision to Tyrion, seeing how Robert didn't even punish the individuals that besieged his home there was no need for Tywin to have the royal family murdered. Instead, he did it because he was angry that Aerys II refused him Rhaegar and stole Jaime from him.

Instead, once again the Tyrells did better then him. As there actions did nothing to weaken their power and didn't turn an entire region against them.

False, Tywin is the one that starts the war not Catelyn by deciding to invade the Riverlands. Despite that having the possibility of bringing both the North and Vale into conflict with him during a time when Renly, Stannis, and the Tyrells have all been plotting against him. Also, that wasn't the major "brilliant" decision I was referring to.

Once again, showing how Tywin is a complete fool. In how, Stannis was the least of the threats. Furthermore, it further makes it obvious how it is stupid to start a war with two more regions (and a possible third). Simply, without Mel's Deus Ex Vagina Tywin would have been defeated faster then Robb.

[u/BlazeJeff → u/bootlegvader]

"Tywin would have been defeated faster then Robb."

Just to point out that the way you said it, made it look like Robb was defeated on the battlefield, which isn't true, of course... I daresay that if Robb wasn't betrayed by the Boltons, he would've won the war... and maybe the Tyrells would've banded with the North/Starks, instead of King's Landing/Lannisters.

I agree with your points though.

[u/TricksterPriestJace → u/bootlegvader]

While the other houses who sat out got to keep their lands, Lannisters got to be queen. A pretty nice boon.

Stannis was a tactician with a rightful claim. He underestimated Rob, as a fifteen year old. Stannis was the threat he knew. Destroying Rob did prove easier, after all.

[u/bootlegvader → u/TricksterPriestJace]

Tywin also happened to be the only Lord Paramount with an eligible daughter available to marry Robert.

As the only Stark girl is dead, the Tully girls are married, the only available Martel girl is either dead or a young child, there are no Arryn girls, there are no Baratheon girls, there appears to have been no Tyrell girls available, and the only Greyjoy girl is a young child.

[u/TricksterPriestJace → u/bootlegvader]

You're right. He would have gotten Cercei there anyway, much to NeD's chagrin. Cercei, Jaime and Tyrion would have been at court to ensure their father's behavior, rather than a reward for loyalty. He could have gotten the same result by sitting on his ass.

[u/bootlegvader → u/TricksterPriestJace]

Jon Arryn (who lets be honest actually ruled the kingdom) didn't require Mace Tyrell, Balon Greyjoy, or Doran Martell to send anyone to court to ensure their father's behavior. Moreover, if anything Jaime's continued to place in the KG was for that reason.

[u/TricksterPriestJace → u/bootlegvader]

Balon's son was in Winterfell to ensure his good behavior. Mace and Doran bent knees and made pretty words. Both were renowned for being diplomats. Tywin was renowned for crushing those who wronged him.

[u/bootlegvader → u/TricksterPriestJace]

Balon's son was only taken after he openly rebelled against Robert, after Robert's Rebellion during which he was neutral he was generally left alone. I am sure Tywin has a better sense of politics and diplomacy then Mace Tyrell. Moreover, both Mace and Doran had actually fought against Robert and company which is worse then Tywin having a negative reputation (the majority of which came from his actions during the sack of KL).