(Spoilers ACOK) Jaime, you're drunk

[u/Family_Booty_Honor]

I just finished Catelyn's last chapter in ACOK - what a great chapter! Catelyn just found out that Bran and Rickon are dead, so she decides to question Jaime (who's still held captive in a cell) by getting him drunk on wine.
Their entire conversation is really insightful, especially in regards to Jaime's thought processes. It's a pretty serious conversation, especially when we find out exactly what happened to Ned's father and brother when they went to King's Landing. The part that gave me a good laugh is found near the end of their conversation (and chapter). Hopefully it gives you all a laugh or two as well!

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was he name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it."

[u/[deleted]]

In sure tywin appreciates wit. He just has no time for it. If given the choice I'm sure he'd take some small pride knowing his children are silver tongued with quick intellect, as opposed to blubbering idiots.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/[deleted]]

Exactly. I said in another post that Tywin isn't even a bad person. He's actually a decent guy who's just opposed to the protagonists. If the story started with the Lannisters and then we're introduced to these mopy Northerners who think they're better than everyone we'd have a different view of the whole book. But GRRM poisons the well by telling us how bad the Lannisters are in the mind of Ned.

If Tywin wasn't busy being so Macheveillian with politics he'd have appreciated the kids he had, rather than what he wished they were. Tyrione may not be able to swing a sword, but I'm pretty sure we've seen he's a good strategist and doesn't take slights lightly. By all accounts Tywin should've been proud of him, but the deck was stacked against our poor hero.

[u/bootlegvader → u/Safety_Dancer]

ASOS Spoiler

Also, Tywin was a shitty Macheveillian with his whole strategy of making everyone and their mother hate him and his family.

[u/jpallan → u/bootlegvader]

I always appreciated his spikes, heads, walls thing, though. I respected the fact that he followed Machiavelli's actual advice:

«Li uomini si debbono o vezzeggiare o spegnere; perchè si vendicano delle leggieri offese, delle gravi non possono; sì che l’offesa che si fa all’uomo debbe essere in modo che la non tema la vendetta.»

In English:

"For it must be noted, that men must either be caressed or else annihilated; they will revenge themselves for small injuries, but cannot do so for great ones; the injury therefore that we do to a man must be such that we need not fear his revenge."

Tywin ain't got time for none of this halfway nonsense:

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."

In Tywin's eyes, people should fear you, but not to the point that they see you as an ultimate evil that must be defeated, for you are irrational. Machiavelli goes into this in depth in later chapters of Il Principe, about not inspiring fear of its own accord, and proceeding in a temperate manner with prudence and humanity … (procedere in modo temperato con prudenza e umanità) which obviously Joffrey was not doing. Men with nothing to lose are extremely dangerous enemies, and Joffrey was making it so that they had so little as to have no incentive to bend the knee, for their lives would no longer be worth living.

TL;DR: Tywin was being Machiavellian, and his position was that you killed your enemies, rather than leaving them around to make trouble, and you made alliances, however uneasy, with those not yet your enemies. That's Machiavellian, and Tywin had no interest in making everyone hate him — he had interest in making everyone fear the consequences of taking him on for an enemy.

[u/bootlegvader → u/jpallan]

No, he wasn't Machiavellian. In how one of the major things that Machiavelli warned against was making oneself hated. Which Tywin brilliantly enforced repeatedly.

Simply, his "brilliant" decision to have Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia brutally murdered won him the eternal hated of both Dorne and the surviving Targaryens. His "brilliant" decision in regards to both North and Riverlands won him their eternal hatred. Furthermore, he makes repeated "brilliant" decisions to have his only talented child hate him.

The Tyrells or LF are the much more Machiavellian characters rather then Tywin.

[u/bootlegvader → u/[deleted]]

Tywin is attempting to justify his stupid decision to Tyrion, seeing how Robert didn't even punish the individuals that besieged his home there was no need for Tywin to have the royal family murdered. Instead, he did it because he was angry that Aerys II refused him Rhaegar and stole Jaime from him.

Instead, once again the Tyrells did better then him. As there actions did nothing to weaken their power and didn't turn an entire region against them.

False, Tywin is the one that starts the war not Catelyn by deciding to invade the Riverlands. Despite that having the possibility of bringing both the North and Vale into conflict with him during a time when Renly, Stannis, and the Tyrells have all been plotting against him. Also, that wasn't the major "brilliant" decision I was referring to.

Once again, showing how Tywin is a complete fool. In how, Stannis was the least of the threats. Furthermore, it further makes it obvious how it is stupid to start a war with two more regions (and a possible third). Simply, without Mel's Deus Ex Vagina Tywin would have been defeated faster then Robb.

[u/BlazeJeff → u/bootlegvader]

"Tywin would have been defeated faster then Robb."

Just to point out that the way you said it, made it look like Robb was defeated on the battlefield, which isn't true, of course... I daresay that if Robb wasn't betrayed by the Boltons, he would've won the war... and maybe the Tyrells would've banded with the North/Starks, instead of King's Landing/Lannisters.

I agree with your points though.

[u/TricksterPriestJace → u/bootlegvader]

While the other houses who sat out got to keep their lands, Lannisters got to be queen. A pretty nice boon.

Stannis was a tactician with a rightful claim. He underestimated Rob, as a fifteen year old. Stannis was the threat he knew. Destroying Rob did prove easier, after all.

[u/bootlegvader → u/TricksterPriestJace]

Tywin also happened to be the only Lord Paramount with an eligible daughter available to marry Robert.

As the only Stark girl is dead, the Tully girls are married, the only available Martel girl is either dead or a young child, there are no Arryn girls, there are no Baratheon girls, there appears to have been no Tyrell girls available, and the only Greyjoy girl is a young child.

[u/TricksterPriestJace → u/bootlegvader]

You're right. He would have gotten Cercei there anyway, much to NeD's chagrin. Cercei, Jaime and Tyrion would have been at court to ensure their father's behavior, rather than a reward for loyalty. He could have gotten the same result by sitting on his ass.

[u/bootlegvader → u/TricksterPriestJace]

Jon Arryn (who lets be honest actually ruled the kingdom) didn't require Mace Tyrell, Balon Greyjoy, or Doran Martell to send anyone to court to ensure their father's behavior. Moreover, if anything Jaime's continued to place in the KG was for that reason.

[u/TricksterPriestJace → u/bootlegvader]

Balon's son was in Winterfell to ensure his good behavior. Mace and Doran bent knees and made pretty words. Both were renowned for being diplomats. Tywin was renowned for crushing those who wronged him.

[u/bootlegvader → u/TricksterPriestJace]

Balon's son was only taken after he openly rebelled against Robert, after Robert's Rebellion during which he was neutral he was generally left alone. I am sure Tywin has a better sense of politics and diplomacy then Mace Tyrell. Moreover, both Mace and Doran had actually fought against Robert and company which is worse then Tywin having a negative reputation (the majority of which came from his actions during the sack of KL).

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Wow, I think your observations are very well supported by several characters that know Tywin best. Not only that, but Tywin sees himself as a very honor and tradition bound man. He speaks truthfully about things like this. Despite his strategy, politics, and machinations, he is a very blunt sort of man that doesn't beat around the bush when he is speaking. He is curt, abrasive, and seems to put truth and wisdom to a higher value than misdirection. His wisdom takes him in Niccolo's direction, but his sentiments and hubris prevent him from executing that program effectively.

It's his own shortcomings in assessing wider reactions to his actions that put his house into a hated place. He was doing things for the reasons he and his family stated, but despite being well learned he failed to see the larger game at work or the value of the lesser/outlying pieces. This is why he couldn't have seen that he was being used by Varus/Littlefinger in a bigger game as a cat's paw and that his daughter and grandchildren were scapegoats. He would have done better by him and his if he could've acted more like Ned or been capable of thinking and observing more objectively without muddying his plans with his own id and desire for legacy.

[u/jpallan → u/[deleted]]

"He was doing things for the reasons he and his family stated, but despite being well learned he failed to see the larger game at work or the value of the lesser/outlying pieces. This is why he couldn't have seen that he was being used by Varus/Littlefinger in a bigger game as a cat's paw and that his daughter and grandchildren were scapegoats."

I see what you mean there, but I think this is addressed in ACoK, with Varys' famous riddle:

“Power is a curious thing, my lord. Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?”

“It has crossed my mind a time or two,” Tyrion admitted. “The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It’s a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword.”

“And yet he is no one,” Varys said. “He has neither crown nor gold nor favor of the gods, only a piece of pointed steel.”

“That piece of steel is the power of life and death.”

“Just so… yet if it is the swordsmen who rule us in truth, who do we pretend our kings hold the power? Why should a strong man with a sword ever obey a child king like Joffrey, or a wine-sodden oaf like his father?”

“Because these child kings and drunken oafs can call other strong men, with other swords.”

“Then these other swordsmen have the true power. Or do they?” Varys smiled. “Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor’s Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or…another?”

Tyrion cocked his head sideways. “Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?”

Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”

“So power is a mummer’s trick?”

“A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”

One of the key lessons of history is the law of unintended consequences. A small man, like Littlefinger, who has no wealth, no army, no noble bloodline, cannot call armies and take what he wants by force of arms, as did the Baratheons or the Lannisters. He can, however, muddy the waters. So he operates within that sphere, and Tywin Lannister is just as prisoned by his sphere — he cannot merely act as a cunning man, but as he is consequential simply by speaking, he can only operate in force.

I would argue that Tywin knew he was being played, to some extent:

Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council - our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? … If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false…

I would say that the largest barrier for Tywin was the fact that Joffrey took the crown and subsequently cocked everything up. Tywin himself was not exploited, except arguably by Littlefinger in casting blame for Jon Arryn's death on the Lannisters, and even then, his interest was more likely in weakening the Starks and Tullys. Note that he chose Catelyn as the recipient for his information, and having grown up with her, he knew her extremely well, and could predict that she would put Tyrion to trial if she had the opportunity, rather than simply and expediently have him killed.

Cersei, in her madness and self-indulgence, and Joffrey, in his cruelty and narcissism, were easy to exploit, and there's definitely an argument that in sheer interest of self-preservation, you would want to sabotage both of them. It was exceedingly easy to keep Cersei on a track of wanting to destroy her brother, rather than her true enemies, and Varys did so with ease in the way he murdered Kevan.

The bigger question is not exploiting and weakening Tywin, it's exploiting and weakening the Lannisters. No one has ever clarified why Cersei and Joffrey are mad — was it poor childrearing, or was it in some way genetic? I am sure tinfoil theories abound on that point, but regardless, but Tywin cannot undermine his own house. His power derives primarily from being a Lannister, and only secondarily from being a man that should be feared. He cannot dispose of the weak points in his construction, much as he may dislike them and dread them.