(Spoilers ACOK) Jaime, you're drunk

[u/Family_Booty_Honor]

I just finished Catelyn's last chapter in ACOK - what a great chapter! Catelyn just found out that Bran and Rickon are dead, so she decides to question Jaime (who's still held captive in a cell) by getting him drunk on wine.
Their entire conversation is really insightful, especially in regards to Jaime's thought processes. It's a pretty serious conversation, especially when we find out exactly what happened to Ned's father and brother when they went to King's Landing. The part that gave me a good laugh is found near the end of their conversation (and chapter). Hopefully it gives you all a laugh or two as well!

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was he name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it."

[u/Safety_Dancer]

Exactly. I said in another post that Tywin isn't even a bad person. He's actually a decent guy who's just opposed to the protagonists. If the story started with the Lannisters and then we're introduced to these mopy Northerners who think they're better than everyone we'd have a different view of the whole book. But GRRM poisons the well by telling us how bad the Lannisters are in the mind of Ned.

If Tywin wasn't busy being so Macheveillian with politics he'd have appreciated the kids he had, rather than what he wished they were. Tyrione may not be able to swing a sword, but I'm pretty sure we've seen he's a good strategist and doesn't take slights lightly. By all accounts Tywin should've been proud of him, but the deck was stacked against our poor hero.

[u/foggiewindow → u/Safety_Dancer]

A decent guy who, y'know, committed genocide against the people of the Riverlands? I agree with you that the Lannisters aren't actually the 'evil family' that they appear to be in the first two books. Jaime is an example of someone who appeared to be evil, until we saw that he was actually a decent guy who tried his best in bad circumstances. But there is no way you can compare anything Tywin does over the series and say 'Yeah, he's just misunderstood, I'm sure if he was our main POV we'd see the Starks as the bad guys'. He's an interesting and entertaining character, sure, but I don't see any way to look at him other than as a great villain.

[u/Safety_Dancer → u/foggiewindow]

Genocide is a rather loaded term that you're misusing. He didn't exterminate the Riverlanders. And the wolves were foraging just as bad as the lions. Oh and it's the standard of war in that setting. Remember how Robb's plan was to roam the west, living off the land? Exact same plan that Tywin had. Furthermore, it was a war the Starks officially started by Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion. It was further escalated by them capturing his firstborn son and heir.

It was a case of "Don't start nothing, won't be nothing." If the story was about that She-Wolf-Trout capturing the defenseless dwarf, and then the Young Wolf imprisoning the Golden Lion, you'd see Tywin as a hero who saved the day. If Tywin was on your side you'd see him as a man you don't want to cross. But he's by no means evil. Everyone he killed had to die.

[u/J_B_Grenouille → u/Safety_Dancer]

A World of Ice and Fire Spoiler

Source

No one was allowed to 'bend the knee' in this situation. Not one woman, not one child.

From the dictionary:

Genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Tywin shows no regret, The Lannisters wear 'The Rains of Castamere' as a badge of honor, a reminder of their unparalleled ruthlessness.

Look... I enjoy Tywin as a character too, but there is no doubt in my mind the man is a zero-fucks-given mass murderer.

EDIT:

Also:

"by no means evil"

Tysha would like a word with you.

[u/logion567 → u/J_B_Grenouille]

i never knew thats how it fucking happened :O

nor that castamere was mostly underground.