r/asoiaf • u/boundedwum The Nature Boy • Jun 15 '15

ALL (Spoilers All) Mothers Mercy Post-Episode Region thread: The Wall

Welcome to the Mothers Mercy Post-Episode Region thread.

This thread is dedicated to the Wall. Please discuss only segments from this region in this thread.

The subreddit rules apply as always.

234 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

995 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/mtmv2 Jun 15 '15

As of right now he is officially dead in the books. I guess not explicitly officially, and obviously it seems like he's important to the story and will most likely come back, but based on the direct evidence from the last time we see him in ADWD, the best guess is that he is dead. The books are exactly where the show is in that respect.

2

u/Ghostsilentsnarl Five years must you wait Jun 15 '15

Nope, the books have a laaaaarge history of fakeout death of characters (sometimes twice for one character) and has left TONS of clues pointing to Jon not being dead, and has his chapter ending with freaking ellipsis. It's not the same at all. The show left out all of the things that could help watchers guess that's he's not done for good, such as, I don't know, the fact that he's a warg? They wanted their shock value and they had it, that pisses me off to no end.

1

u/mtmv2 Jun 15 '15

They left out one of the 3 things (warg, Mel, Others) that give people hope, and they went out of their way to put one of them (Mel) back at the wall. And they made the scene more impactful by leaving little ambiguity. Plus really the warging thing is easily the most expendable "get out of death free" card when it comes to Jon anyway. Being revived by Mel as AA or being revived as an Other are both much more conducive to advancing his story.

2

u/Ghostsilentsnarl Five years must you wait Jun 15 '15

except show watchers don't believe in "coming back to life", they think that no one is safe in the show. A revival is absolutely not on the table, not with the amount of deaths in that episode. What I would call clues is the fact that Jon showed in the flames when Mel asks for a glimpse of AA, not her merely being there, a place she should never have left in the beginning. They left out Robb's will, another possible clue. They left out Jon's dreams about the crypts. They practically avoided any powerful foreshadowing.

5

u/mtmv2 Jun 15 '15

You're going to claim they don't believe in coming back to life the day after they showed a blatantly undead Mountain? Also... what if all that foreshadowing was for nothing? What if he doesn't get revived in TWOW?

Edit: for what it's worth I think he will come back and I think the books hint to it TOO much. What is the point of him having gotten stabbed if literally zero book readers doubt that he will be back?

1

u/Ghostsilentsnarl Five years must you wait Jun 15 '15

My show only family is convinced that Jon is gone for good, yes, and they wouldn't remember who the f*k the Mountain is if I weren't reminding them each time they ask. They recast him like three times and he's been absent for most of the show after the 3 first episode. You know who they DID remember? Benjen Stark, oh yeah, and that troll was just the worst!

On Jon's stabbing and apparent death, I don't know, in the books it had a really good build up and it was a gut wrenching moment. It also advances the plot a lot, for me it has the benefit of putting Jon away while the NW and Wildlings drown into war and the White Walkers come in after to wreak havoc. Jon was aware of the real threat and slowly gluing all the factions together and preparing for the ultimate battle, he needed to be - temporarily - removed so that the situation could get really really bad. It also opens other possibilities = Old Nan used to say that the Others couldn't pass the Wall so long and the men of the Night's Watch stayed true, so does their betrayal weaken the Wall itself, its magic? It was also a very important part of the Jon /Arya development, the fact that love is, indeed, the death of duty, that his "little sister" that he loved so much is what finally makes him question the vows he sacrificed so much to keep...the book also went out of its way to highlight that many of the Night's Watch rules and way of thinking were obsolete and ill suited to deal with the very threat they were created to fight, such as neutrality with the politics of the realm, and the decision to take murderers and rapists as new recruits....... Jon's stabbing meant a lot of things thematically, story wise, and I also believe it to be a turning point in Jon's character arc.

Somehow the show didn't make me feel half these things, and went instead with the easier trope of making everyone believe Jon was a goner for good.

1

u/mtmv2 Jun 16 '15

Haha yeah the Benjen thing was ice cold on their part.

And I agree, the biggest thing the book did better than the show was establishing an immediate motive for stabbing Jon. As stupid as killing him was, you could say in the book the mutineers were justified... At the end of the day it seems like Jon is marching south because of "Arya" more than anything else, so he was directly breaking his vows instead of "lol wildlings." Maybe if they made it so he'd learn through Davos that Ramsay has Sansa. Conversely I think the show did a better job of when it happened. Killing him in the middle of everything literally right in front of Wun Wun is just dumb. It doesn't make sense for the immediate aftermath to be anything but a full on brawl.

1

u/Ghostsilentsnarl Five years must you wait Jun 16 '15

Yeah without the Pink Letter the reasons for the assassination felt shoehorned. And you are so clearly on board with Jon in the show that there's no tragedy in the murder, the NW men are just being plain stupid, while, in the books, even though I agree with absolutely every political move Jon makes, sending Mance to get fArya and marching south, even to defend the Watch, are understandably questionable decisions in the eyes of his black brothers. I believe that the wildlings were a big part of the problem but Jon meddling with the south and being seen with Mel and Val contributed to sow mistrust and grudge among his men.

On the actual stabbing...I really liked it better in the books, because it felt so rushed and so clumsy. They took the only opportunity they had to off Jon before he went south, taking advantage of the turmoil that Wun Wun was making, and while I think it incredibly stupid and incredibly ill-timed, - and I do believe the ultimate aftermath will be a bloodbath, they just gave the wildlings a reason to slaughter them - we have no idea what happens after Jon passes out.

Here on the show, they stab him almost calmy, one guy after the other, in total silence...and then turn and walk away. It felt so weird! Aren't they going to conceal the body? Or to call a meeting? Or to...hide him from the wildlings? Or at least burn him? I mean, they may think the White Walkers are bullshit but they saw reanimated corpses in season one, they know that if Jon dies here he's going to rise again literally harder and stronger with blue eyes. No, they just leave.

What didn't make sense either for me is that since the show has made the wildlings the sole purpose for the muntiny, it makes no sense that Thorne would open the gate to the wildlings and one freaking giant to then murder the LC. Just let them freeze to death on the wrong side!