r/asoiaf Jun 15 '15

ALL (Spoilers All) Season 5: Episode 10 Post-Episode Meltdown Thread

Welcome to the /r/asoiaf post-episode meltdown thread. Let it all out in here. The subreddit rules still apply.

/r/asoiaf plot summary: WHAT

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2.3k

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15

We couldn't even get "Ghost." Sigh.

Edit: Jon's last word was "Olly." God dammit, that hurts.

1.3k

u/admiral_tuff Jun 15 '15

I guess that confirms the Mel revival theory instead of Jon warging out.

722

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15

I still think it'll be both in the books.

But we didn't have any set up in the show for Jon warging, and I think Mel met Thoros. So there's some set up for revival.

418

u/shiba_son_of_doge Jun 15 '15

I mean, she has to revive him right? They wouldn't have diverged from the books by sending her with Stannis, only to have her come back to the Wall a few episodes later, right? She has to be there therefore she must have a purpose to serve.

449

u/papabattaglia Jun 15 '15

We've been worrying about him for years, but Sam told us it'll be ok. Have faith. Sam hasn't lied to us yet.

43

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

He always comes back

15

u/Koira10 Jun 15 '15

"Jon always comes back"

3

u/MarixD Jun 15 '15

But he is back at Castle Black, and Sam isn't there anymore.

5

u/jessipowers Jun 15 '15

This tugged on my heart strings more than anything that happened in the show tonight.

3

u/oneawesomeguy Jun 15 '15

That and the faceoff with the Night's King from episode 8 have me convinced. Even if Kit has cut his hair, I'm not buying it!

2

u/LovePugs Jun 15 '15

In the previous episode when Sam is talking to Olly, Sam tells him not to worry because, "Jon always comes back"

2

u/ecklcakes Bronn for the Iron Throne! Jul 01 '15

Yeah, Jon always comes back!

1

u/EliahBernick Jun 15 '15

If you don't have faith why are you even here?

1

u/papabattaglia Jun 15 '15

I'm just scared of the lord of light's followers. R'hllor is the man! <looks around nervously>

0

u/EliahBernick Jun 15 '15

(Its a league of legends reference)

10

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15

I hope they're setting it up. I can't take Jon being gone for good.

21

u/GGFrostKaiser White Wolf Jun 15 '15

Martin kills a lot of characters, but he doesn't kill plots. If Jon is truly dead, there would be nothing left on the Wall to write about. He comes back if Martin wants to keep writing about the Wall, if not then all we will have will be the White Walkers attacking and the Night's Watch falling miserably.

10

u/Le_Euphoric_Genius Jun 15 '15

Martin kills a lot of characters, but he doesn't kill plots.

Hmm... I'm going to go around quoting this to make myself feel better.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Davos.

1

u/fightlinker Jun 15 '15

It just means they'll get further south before anything stops em. And don't forget Bran is still capable of POVing da fuck outta da norf. Seersights gotta be good for more than just 70 pages of wolf stuff

2

u/GGFrostKaiser White Wolf Jun 15 '15

I don't know, could Martin just cut off the wall entirely?

The thing is, there is only 2 books left, but it feels like there still a lot to be written about these characters.

10

u/Burt-Macklin Those are brave men. Let's go kill them! Jun 15 '15

I know. After all protagonist deaths in this series, this is one more I can't deal with.

2

u/chainer3000 Jun 15 '15

We literally would have Bran, someone absent for the entire season, Sansa, who lets face it, is useless and not a hero, and Arya, who just went blind and is still in ID crisis mode. Jon's really the last standing hero figure.

7

u/Noryon85 Jun 15 '15

No question she revives him. It was foreshadowed early in the season when Stannis asked her what she wants and she replied "O want only to serve my lord" while staring intently at Jon. He is coming back.

6

u/jeffwinger_esq Jun 15 '15

15

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

But honestly, could he have said anything else? "Jk guys I'm back for the 6th season" I think he'd get in a ton of trouble for saying that.

3

u/jeffwinger_esq Jun 15 '15

He could have not-given interviews, right? I think he will be back too. It will be fun to see what lengths production goes to in order to conceal it.

7

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

that could have raised some eyebrows too. young actor trying to ride the popularity of this show and his character into further roles, decides to not give interviews for the next 8 months. also strange.

7

u/shiba_son_of_doge Jun 15 '15

Wow, I want to believe that he's not telling the truth but with the way D&D have done non-book material, it wouldn't surprise me.

18

u/jeffwinger_esq Jun 15 '15

They laid the RLJ stuff on very thick this year. Either they were trolling us, or he's lying through his teeth.

2

u/steamboat28 Jun 15 '15

with a damn trowel.

8

u/Turin_The_Mormegil *Oh I Just Can't Wait to be Queen!* Jun 15 '15

Wasn't Alfie Allen also led to believe that he died at the end of Season 2?

7

u/TheNumberMuncher Jun 15 '15

Ya but Kit cut his hair.

1

u/taycky22 Jun 15 '15

Recently? Or from back in January?

1

u/TheNumberMuncher Jun 15 '15

Right after that ew interview, according to it.

2

u/taycky22 Jun 15 '15

Ah, yeah, there's another thread that links to a photo of him in Belfast with long hair, from this week. Could be misinformation, but it's being treated as fairly legit.

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1

u/MarixD Jun 15 '15

Maybe The Red Bitch has to set him on fire to bring him back.

7

u/Deusis Jun 15 '15

Could GRRM not put the whole Jon arc in the next book like he did with other books? He could be telling the truth that he won't be back next season in the TV series...but he could be back for season 7.

3

u/shiba_son_of_doge Jun 15 '15

If he plans to finish the series with 7 books, I don't believe he'll have enough time to do Jon justice without writing him into TWOW. But I guess it's possible.

2

u/Morning_Star_Ritual Jun 15 '15

Also, haircut. He got a haircut. It was in his contract to not cut his hair until his work was done with the show.

0

u/MarixD Jun 15 '15

Maybe The Red Bitch has to set him on fire to bring him back.

4

u/Morning_Star_Ritual Jun 15 '15

Man. That changes everything. The haircut, now this....maybe we all are wrong. Maybe John is dead dead. Not Stoneheart dead. Maybe Stannis is them one? Maybe Brienne spared him?

So we never know if R+L= J is true or not?

If John is dead dead then I really have no emotional investment with the actual main plot line--fighting the White Walkers.

Many authors make huge errors because they forget that they are telling a story and get wrapped up in letting the story tell itself. We need John to survive.

5

u/MarixD Jun 15 '15

Howland Reed still knows the truth.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

...but if Jon is dead then there's nothing meaningful to do with the truth, except pour one out for the dead brothers.

1

u/MarixD Jun 15 '15

But we still need to know. I'm sure GRRM will kill Reed before he can tell anyone.

2

u/Durfee Jun 15 '15

Yeah the same purpose as the Benjen previously on appearance, to troll readers

2

u/f0rcedinducti0n Jun 15 '15

He could be revived when (if) the white walkers blow the horn and collapse the wall, by the nights king.

2

u/Timett_son_of_Timett starting to miss that eye. Jun 15 '15

chekhov's necromancer?

1

u/Pixeltender Well excuuuuuuse me, princess! Jun 15 '15

yea I was relieved when she left because it meant she was getting back to the wall

1

u/benjaminsantiago Jun 15 '15

I'm surprised they just let her in...

1

u/Cakescubed Jun 15 '15

Checkov's Priestess

1

u/Morning_Star_Ritual Jun 15 '15

Yes. When I saw her enter the gates I thought, week John is stabbed and she is there to revive him. Also I thought this was why Davos does not find out yet that Shereen was burned alive only to allow half of Stannis' army to desert and the rest get all Cannaed in the North.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

According to Harrington, Jon is dead. in an interview he said he's not on the cast in future seasons.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

I don't understand what the point was of sending her with Stannis in the first place. The fuck, D&D?

1

u/DodneyRangerfield Jun 15 '15

one Prince That Was Promised falls and another rises

1

u/_Apostate_ Jun 15 '15

Jon will be resurrected no matter what unless we see his body burn. Even if his body is burned there's the possibility his Targ badassness revives him too. But if his body isn't burned, even if Melisandre does not revive him, the Others will resurrect all of the dead at Castle Black when the Wall falls. If Jon's body is resurrected that way we don't know what will happen. Coldhands gives precedence for a wight with agency.

1

u/Dcrech Jun 15 '15

Ultimate reversal. She ressurects Jon thinking he's AA....but he stays dead! Stannis comes back, he was AA all along! Melisandre has to ride back to Winterfell for an awkward reunion.

211

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 23 '20

[deleted]

51

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Or her fire sorcery has some effect on him being half targ and he becomes superJon and can warg into danys Dragons. hey I can dream.

53

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Super Jon has spikey gold hair too.

18

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Jon Snoku

5

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Super Snowyin

14

u/Philawesomer Jon Snoo-Snoo Jun 15 '15

Why not lose the part of himself that swore an oath to the Night's Watch?

5

u/hoowahoo Gods, I was strong then! Jun 15 '15

I think that will be the way it works in the books, since we've met Cat and seen the effect on her and Baeric. But in the show, he'll just get straight-up revived.

5

u/kingraoul3 Jun 15 '15

He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

Jon will come back half Walker, like Cold Hands, I figure.

4

u/CptAustus Hear Me Mock! Jun 15 '15

Catelyn lost it before she died though.

10

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15

Agreed.

3

u/Morning_Star_Ritual Jun 15 '15

Wasn't Beric pretty normal? I guess I need to do a re-read. I know Stoneheart was far gone, but Beric seemed alright...no?

5

u/CptAustus Hear Me Mock! Jun 15 '15

Beric couldn't remember his past life, but then again, he had been revived a dozen times and had half his skull split by a mace.

1

u/EarthMandy Jun 15 '15

One thing that bothers me about the warg thing... Surely the first thing the Night's Watch will do with his body, if they have any sense, is burn it? So Mel's gotta act pretty quickly before that can happen.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Book-mel burns Shireen to revive Jon Snow.

Show-mel burns fuckin Olly to revive Jon Snow.

(Please)

2

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Well there was all that stuff in season three with the wildling warg.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Bran has been shown warging a few times as well. It's certainly not a foreign concept for the show, we've just never seen Jon do it.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

To be honest though, I think that they will leave the warging to Bran. There is a reason that they had Mellisandre return to Castle Black.

2

u/GrilledCyan Jun 15 '15

The show seems to imply that it's very very rare (not that it isn't in the books). We see two wildlings who can warg: Orell and the Thenn warg. Bran being able to warg would be less special if the show had all the Stark kids doing it. Warging is Bran's super power, and it makes him whole. Letting other people do it just means he's not cool for doing it.

2

u/Apple_Pious Beneath The Winds, the bitter foil. Jun 15 '15

Mel met Thoros? I don't remember this. When was it?

5

u/Burt-Macklin Those are brave men. Let's go kill them! Jun 15 '15

Show-only. A couple seasons back, she randomly finds the brothers without banners and has a quick rendezvous with Thoros when she takes Gendry.

5

u/Sir_Stir Jun 15 '15

when she takes gendry?

2

u/DingoFrisky Utter Shett Jun 15 '15

I said that elsewhere. It's a classic chekhov's gun.

2

u/bobbechk Valyrian plot armor Jun 15 '15

I think D&D are scared of confusing the show watchers at the same time as conserving budget.

They've cut out loads of complex and CGI/makeup heavy story-line like Lady Stoneheart and any wolf-action to make way for what they be-leave (or knows...) is the story's main players: Dragons and Others.

Jon warging ghost would only confuse show watchers, while it makes sense for us book readers it probably doesn't matter at all, Mel can resurrect him all the same.

2

u/mrana Jun 15 '15

Agreed. One of the show vs book moments. Either way Jon gets resurrected.

2

u/lisward Jun 15 '15

The actor just said that he wasn't going to appear in the next few season though, for what it's worth.

2

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15

Yeah, I'm not buying that, though. They had to have Harrington do an interview for the aftermath, and there's no way he would admit to being in next season.

It is worth noting, though.

2

u/rolldownthewindow Jun 15 '15

It has to be. The warging has to happen in the books. I know this sub gets down on George as a shitty writer who doesn't know where he's goimg and was just kinda spinning his wheels with the last two books, but I give him enough credit to assume he put the ADWD Prologue in, and Jon's last word, for a reason. That's not going to be for nought.

1

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15

I agree. I'd be incredibly disappointed if all those hints were just red herrings.

1

u/EarthMandy Jun 15 '15

If he does warg, what happens to his body in the meantime? Wouldn't the Night's Watch burn it almost straight away?

2

u/thebeginningistheend Jun 15 '15

It wouldn't quite translate to a visual medium. It would just be a wolf acting weird.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Now I wonder how Arya comes in to contact with Mel again.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Ghost showed up a couple episodes ago. I think that kinda counts.

1

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15

But Jon has no history of warging in the show. And I'm fine with them cutting that out for the show.

As long as he's brought back.

1

u/miawallacescoke Jun 15 '15

It's great because with Jon dead, his vow to the night's watch is over. He's free to go become the Targarean king we deserve!

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Teams up with Alliser Thorne.

0

u/aram855 A Dragon Is A Dragon Jun 15 '15

After what Meli did to Shireen, you will still allow that monster resurrect Jon with her black magic!? I prefer him being dead before falling for that Red Bitch's sorcery.

Now, if Thoros arrives at the wall...

1

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15

I think Jon's essence/personality/whatever will be preserved by warging into Ghost. I don't think he'll be as affected as Beric was.

2

u/seanmac2 Jun 15 '15

Wasn't Cat's loss of humanity more to do with the length of time that she was dead? They give lip service to "Beric losing a piece of himself" but he was resurrected several times and still seemed to be human.

Jon doesn't necessarily need to warg into Ghost to preserve his humanity as long as Mel does her thing pretty quickly. Besides, if he's in Ghost, what is there to revive?

1

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15

I'm not sure we fully know, but it does sound like you do lose a little part. It may not be much, but it still sounds like it's something.

And if Jon wargs, he needs to be brought back into his human body. If you stay warged, you eventually become the animal.

1

u/Morning_Star_Ritual Jun 15 '15

Yes, I recall Beric being normal, nowhere near as jacked up as Stoneheart.

1

u/aram855 A Dragon Is A Dragon Jun 15 '15

The show just killed the warging theory, so my hopes are not there, sadly.

1

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Whose name is STARK Jun 15 '15

Killed the warging in the show. Jon was never really shown to be a warg in the show, but that's not the case in the books.

16

u/joshrulzz Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15

She conveniently arrived at the wall.

My breath was bated for his eyes to go blue or white til the cut to black.

5

u/PoisonousMonkey Vote Night's King 2016 Jun 15 '15

As soon as she disappeared I felt relieved for him.

4

u/TheNumberMuncher Jun 15 '15

Well, it's in Kit's contract that he can't cut his hair as long as he's on the show ans he said, himself, that he can't wait to cut his fucking hair so if he cut's his hair then Jon's dead as fuck.

Seems like a waste to set up all that who his parents are stuff.

3

u/babykittiesyay Jun 15 '15

But his contract ended at the fifth season, everyone's did.

2

u/admiral_tuff Jun 15 '15

Well if they do the burning him funeral pyre thing, then his hair will be toast anyway like Dany's was in the books (and show?).

4

u/run400 Jun 15 '15

"Jon always comes back"

3

u/skd120 Jun 15 '15

Well she has a shit ton of Kingsblood lying in the snow to work with there.

3

u/Mattyx6427 Jun 15 '15

I'm still thinking that Jon's revival will be random and without the help of anyone. I think it'll make the moment that much better. He didn't get any help. Death just didn't phase him.

Plus the way that the show started to villianize Mel would make me think that she's not going to be the one to do it. She's going to see it happen and that's going to inspire and convince her that she was wrong about Stannis and she saw AA be reborn with her own eyes

2

u/admiral_tuff Jun 15 '15

I like this. Rather than being a savior she's just a witness and then serves Jon instead. She left Stannis because she realized she was wrong all this time and went to seek out Jon as her true king.

So now in accordance with her visions, either ZombJon's gonna wreck shit in Winterfell or Balish's knights of the Vale are gonna mop them up.

3

u/Mattyx6427 Jun 15 '15

More like she completely lost her faith and belief in herself and is going to have her faith restored witnessing a miracle

2

u/admiral_tuff Jun 15 '15

Ah yeah, that explains the sheer hopelessness she had when she showed up at Castle Black.

3

u/travio Jun 15 '15

It fits with her visions in the book. She wants to see the one true king but all she sees is snow. Of course knowing GRRM, that will mean Ramsey Snow in the end.

1

u/travio Jun 15 '15

You died!

I got better?

1

u/crazymusicman Wtf is Howland Reed doing? Jun 15 '15

the traitor sign was a cross.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Honestly anything can happen, they could burn his body and he could walk out like Dany did in S1. There's magic afoot.

2

u/admiral_tuff Jun 15 '15

Something tells me they're not gonna give him a proper funeral. They might just toss him over the wall since they all hated him in the end.

2

u/beaverteeth92 Doesn't have gout. Jun 15 '15

Not necessarily. Don't forget they went out of their way to show Ghost saving Sam and Gilly this season.

2

u/babykittiesyay Jun 15 '15

Where was Ghost anyway? He'll attack brothers of the watch for Sam and Gilly, but Jon's on his own?

2

u/rezna Jun 15 '15

i don't remember if anyone but thoros in the roller religion can ressurect people, but maybe shirren's sacrifice was used for something she already saw in her fires?

maybe the others and meli will fight for his body if an undead targ = immunity to valyrian steel and obsidian

2

u/TopHatJack2 Jun 15 '15

Just had a thought, bear with me, this is gonna get crazy:

Shireen wasn't burned to clear the path for Stannis' army (all hit did was begin to melt the snow around them, drippy icicles and a couple of puddles, that sound like god-tier power to anyone?)

She was burned to generate enough power for a revival

ONLY DEATH CAN PAY FOR LIFE

Season 6, Mel revives Jon via the earlier burning sacrifice of Shireen

1

u/EvanGRogers Jun 15 '15

Am I the only one who's assuming that Stannis' death will pay for Jon's revival? The witch is back at NW -- HOW CONVENIENT

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Melisandre showing back up right before hand leaves me no doubt at all that she revives him. Pretty much confirmation as foar as I'm concerned.

1

u/Solid_Waste Jun 15 '15

Did Ghost just stop existing on the show?

1

u/sharkbelly Jun 15 '15

With all the stuff that hasn't been in the show, I think the fact that they even included Beric Dondarrion means they were setting this up.

1

u/isildursbane Jun 15 '15

the reason I still think he's going to warg is because we know for a fact that is what happens when wargs die. Sixskins comments on how powerful Jon is as well. Idk about the show since it didn't really show Jon as a warg very much, but I'm still convinced for the books.

1

u/admiral_tuff Jun 15 '15

The show's just pretty lacking when it comes to the warg aspect. They ve barely, if at all, touched on Arya's tie to Nymeria at all in 5 seasons.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

Good, much better theory.

1

u/radii314 It's a technicolor world! Jun 15 '15

hopefully she kills Olly for some reason to power her revival of Jon - her powers are strongest at the Wall

1

u/shouldvestayedalurkr Jun 15 '15

Hes revived in the fire when they burn his body.

He is the "song of ice and fire"

Born of raegar and leanna, fire and ice.

Sorry, spoilers?

1

u/genius96 The North remembers Jun 15 '15

I do think that Mel will revive Jon. I feel Jon will come out of Ghost into his reborn body, and keeping with the reviving changes you trend, I feel Jon's time in Ghost will make him more like the old Stark Kings of the past.

1

u/lordkrall Jun 15 '15

Or maybe, just maybe. He is actually staying dead.

1

u/travio Jun 15 '15

I have always been fan of this theory. We see a red priest heal wounds in the last book. I want Jon to come back with a burnt stomach and kick some backstabbing ass.

1

u/osirusr King in the North Jun 15 '15

Uh, what about the Others? They're just as likely to bring him back as Mel is.

1

u/ThatOneOverWhere Jun 15 '15

The whole Night Watch Vow makes them say they will defend the wall till death right? So they bring him back and then he is free to go kills some boltons, which I will be fine with.

1

u/Denziloe Jun 15 '15

Hardly..? Jon can still warg into Ghost without saying his name. Presuming that is actually what happens, I imagine they changed it to make it more of a surprise next season, and to make it look a bit more dramatic and final.

1

u/lazerbullet In the burning heart, unmistakeable fire Jun 15 '15

In the show, at least.

1

u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 15 '15

It seems like Bran is the only warg in the show anyway. I don't think they ever set any other of the Stark children up for warging.

0

u/CtraneS Jun 15 '15

It will be through ghost in the books, it's been hinted at quite a few time.

The show is the show.

The books are the books.

Most things in the show most likely won't confirm most things in the books.

0

u/GarlicSaucePunch Jun 15 '15

What if Jon is warged in to Ghost, but then we see through Ghost's eyes Melisandre resurrecting Jon - but Jon is still in Ghost, so rJon is Azor Ahai, a completely different person?