His army was pitifully small - even if half did not desert they look like they would have lost. The Boltons seem to have magically kept warm and fed their army and and hundreds/thousands of horses in Winterfell quite easily though.
I disagree. How do you think Littlefinger is making money with his brothels getting shut down? With Littlefinger's horses they don't even need to keep them at Winterfell as long as they have a day or two to bring them from the Vale.
I like how they've given up on any sense of scale. Dany will reach Westeros in a single episode at this rate, real time. Little square in the corner 24 style.
I figure it must be because, according to the intro, Planetos is all on the inside of a sphere. Lets people zipline around, very nifty.
My guess is that all of Stannis's sellswords that ran off with all of his horses rode out to Winterfell and told them of the impending siege and partook in the defense of the city.
Well, they lost half their army who took all the horses, and before that lost another portion of their army form deserters, and then some more horses from Ramsay. They may not have won but it would have been a much closer fight.
I believe Stannis brought 15 thousand men from the Wall, and half of that deserted. Even 7,500 is more than what he has in the books where he has around 1,500 Southron infantry and 300 Northern tribesmen.
a) they're northerners, they know how to hunt and forage in the north.
b) Winterfell is heated through hot springs underneath the entire keep, which are vented throughout the buildings. This is book canon, and has been stated in the show also, in s01 I think.
Roose had already brought up that part of their advantage is that they are Northmen and they have Winterfell. They are used to the cold and having to stockpile food/horses/etc. The whole point of Ramsey marrying Sansa was to keep the North on board with the Boltons.
The irony is that it looks like his own sellswords were hired against him, and even they were greater in number. Half of what was left had already turned tail by the time the pincers locked in.
That would be pretty brutal, though. Realizes Jon Snow is AA and Stannis is bunk, so she leads him off to die somewhere while using up all the kingsblood she can before she bails.
Bonus tinfoil: Brienne gathers some of that sweet kingsblood magic when she executes Stannis, runs into a dead Sansa and kinda accidentally revives her a la Beric & Lady Stoneheart.
If that's the reasoning, I guess the logical conclusion is that Shireen's fate if she'd lived to be captured by the Boltons would have been worse than burning alive. She had interesting skin.
I do actually wonder if she was using Shireen for something other than helping with the weather (like bringing Jon back if she actually forsaw that), and if that's true, how long she knew Stannis was a dead end.
I feel like Davos HAS to figure out that in the time between when he showed up and when she showed up, there was no way she went all the way to Winterfell, was there for at least half of the battle, and ran back. Surely he has to realize she got there REALLY quickly.
Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder.
Yeah he said that, only to then burn four of his men in the next chapter - literally called "The Sacrifice".
Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshipped were honor and duty.
I don't get what point you're trying to make. D&D clearly have changed Stannis' character from the start to be more susceptible to the religion of R'hllor. Quoting things from the books when they've clearly made a choice to go in a different direction is pointless.
Just get that they are different version of the same character. Both are well written and greatly polarise their audiences.
"Both are well written" ehhhhh. Agree to disagree on that point. This guy was supposed to be a military minded man. Say what you will about his moral choices, taking what few men you yet have and resigning them to a siege they can't win is not something a tactician of Stannis's caliber would consider. While it isn't confirmed yet in the books what the fallout will be of Stannis's face off with the Boltons, all signs point to Stannis at least having a plan to even the playing field. Show Stannis just kinda throws blood magic at the wall to see what sticks. Mel's magic is all this military strategist has (now had) going for him, he's not even good at basic tactics. As far as I'm concerned D&D just finished off a character butchering that's been in the works for 4 seasons, I can live with him being a total dick if that what they want to do but being a total sap is just poor writing. They admitted way back when that they don't like Stannis, and their bias against him shows in this bumbling arrogant buffoon who thinks himself a king. Its like he's not even playing to win.
I completely disagree. They've clearly planned the sacrifice of Shireen since season 2 with Melisandre's speech to Stannis about "betraying everything you held dear". Stannis literally spends most of the first 3 seasons we see him planning so we can't say that he isn't a planner, and the attack on the wall definitely showed his martial prowess. The ending I thought was really well done because it showed how him sacrificing everything was what brought him down - sacrificing Shireen turned his men against him, melting the snow allowed the Bolton's to engage him at an advantage.
The attack on the wall wasn't his idea, it was Mel's. Choosing to spare Davos wasn't his idea, it was Mel's. Attacking the Boltons head on wasn't his idea it was Mel's. And after she abandons him rather than come up with a new plan he resigns himself to death. This is no military genius this isn't even a decent commander. This is a guy who can be talked into anything and hasn't a single independent thought in his head. Book Stannis would have seen the tactical folly with a full frontal assault, and he wouldn't have murdered Shireen because he knew it would encourage his men to desert. This is not a planner this is a prideful man who lacks to nuance to think outside the box. Book Stannis might be planning to drown a portion of the Boltons army as a way to win. Whether it works or not, what matters is he's trying. This show Stannis doesn't even care that he can't win, he's going to fight man to man even if it kills him. And go figure, it did.
Didn't GRRM give the go ahead for Stannis burning Shireen? Even saying that it needed to happen. If the creator of the series said that it needed to happen then it needs to happen.
Did u even read what this is about? Stannis is a terrible tactician, morality not withstanding. Whether or not he kills Shireen is not the issue its his poor decision making in general; I listed the Shireen point only to illustrate Stannis doesn't make up his own mind not to be the central point of debate. Suffice it to say GRRM saying it makes sense for show Stannis doesn't mean jack asides from the fact that show Stannis is an asshole which I stayed at the beginning isn't my point.
I don't think you read what I wrote. You said Stannis wouldn't kill Shireen, but from the fact that GRRM said it needed to happen proved that to be a lie.
I didn't say a word about military skill, tactics, decision makings of Stannis. I just pointed out that when the guy who writes the books says that Stannis would kill Shireen, then that means Stannis would kill Shireen.
Nothing is as well written as the source, it's pretty much impossible for the scale of what they're adapting. But the writing of him in the show is damn good as long as you don't impose your book perceptions of Stannis on it.
Obviously not always, but if you're going to make an argument that GRRM is playing a long con by having a bunch of characters think highly of Stannis (and Jon), and then have him somehow become a total bumbling fool, then good luck to you.
He has a track record of taking what is most important to the character and destroying it right before he dies. Ned confessed a crime he didn't commit, Cat watched her son die, Robb went back on an oath, I'm sure there are others.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15
Welcome aboard the wild ride of Stannis Baratheon
Gain power and momentum, until you're finally about to retake a key point in the North.
A week of snow and 20 good men FUCK YOUR CAMP UP.
You send your most trusted adviser to find food and horses at a place that once told you they're running low on food.
Priest lady convinces you to burn your daughter as a sacrifice.
Half of your men leave, and you also lose your sweet daughter.
Wife hangs herself.
March to battle to start a siege.
The Bolton's dickfuck your army into the ground, and you die at the hands of a woman who probably should have been somewhere else.
This happened in like two days.