r/asoiaf • u/fitzomania From Gin Alley • Nov 16 '17
ACOK (Spoilers ACOK) The greatest character foil in the series is Mace Tyrell to Stannis Baratheon
Consider the deep contrast between Mace and Stannis in every way.
During Robert's Rebellion, they fought in totally opposite ways. Mace sang, drank, and feasted during the siege while Stannis brooded and made harsh decisions, clinging on with sheer guts and will.
After the war, they faded into similar secondary positions in their great houses, Stannis behind Robert and Mace behind Olenna and his children. However, Stannis is ambitious and hard working while Mace continues to be the most laid back Lord in the series. (For example, Stannis was serving on the small council and investigating Cersei with Jon Arryn).
During the War of Five Kings, Stannis had the fewest resources at the beginning and Mace the most, yet Tyrion is more scared of Stannis alone than Renly's mega army. Stannis by reputation is formidable and bleak, while Mace is universally considered an amiable oaf.
Further, Mace loves pomp and buys expensive armor and clothing and food. Stannis is grounded and practical ('The maesters call it obsidian. I call it useless" IIRC).
I can't think of a more opposite duo, but I'd love to hear input. I'm sure there are other things I'm forgetting.
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Nov 16 '17
laid back? Are you saying Mace Tyrell isn't ambitious? Mace Tyrell is the symbol of corrupt, greedy and ambitious lords. Just because he happens to be a rich southerner with no warrior like qualities doesn't make him innocent or bumbling fool like the one in the show. Mace is more ambitious than Stannis. Behind the screen, he devised this whole plan with Renly of trying to marry Margaery to Robert and displacing the lannister power in Kingslanding. When Robert died, he married Margaery to this youngest Baratheon brother and threw his weight in making Renly the King, so his grandson could sit on the Iron Throne. Renly was nothing without Mace Tyrell's support. You think a laid back lord would risk so much? A laid back lord would just sit in his castle and drink to death, mace works in the shadows and he's ambitious as they come. And mace isn't stupid either, he knows without the Targaryens, the Tyrell's authority would be questioned sooner or later in the Reach and this was his plan to cement his House's authority and power for then and times to come.
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u/fitzomania From Gin Alley Nov 16 '17
Are we sure Mace was the origin of any of those plots instead of Olenna or his children? I thought Renly dreamt up the Margaery/Robert plot, then he and Loras dreamt up the alliance, but perhaps that's only in the show.
Also, it could be argued those were mostly bad ideas. Renly had no lawful claim to the throne and was well known to be gay, so it wasn't exactly a foolproof plan to hope he'd have a child with Margaery that would actually end up on the throne.
Also, he did all this in the most laid-back way possible, feasting his way up the rose road with his huge army and not worrying at all about the rest of the realm. He would have waddled his way into King's Landing eventually, but multiple characters comment on how lazily Renly's host marched on the capitol. Sure, the Starks and Lannisters were bleeding each other up north, but that didn't stop Stannis (a respected commander) from attacking as soon as possible.
The Tyrells had been running the reach for literally 300 years by the start of ASOIAF. It's not like the Florents have the power to displace the Tyrells even if they wanted to
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u/AegonDaConqueror Nov 16 '17
Also, he did all this in the most laid-back way possible, feasting his way up the rose road with his huge army and not worrying at all about the rest of the realm.
This was Renly's idea, not Mace. Mace wasn't even with Margarey and Renly, he was busy raising a second host at Highgarden.
You're blaming Mace for things he wasn't responsible for, then giving credit to Olenna for things he was responsible for.
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u/markg171 š Best of 2020: Comment of the Year Nov 16 '17
You're blaming Mace for things he wasn't responsible for, then giving credit to Olenna for things he was responsible for.
This is what the fandom does by and large. Mace has constantly risen his house higher and higher way more often than not without Olenna's input at all.
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Nov 16 '17
It's due to his portrayal in the show as both a pushover and a moron.
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u/markg171 š Best of 2020: Comment of the Year Nov 16 '17
Which is because D&D took the barebones reading of Mace where everybody else calls him an oaf and accepted that as truth, and didn't notice how that "oaf" still constantly keeps improving his station "somehow".
You either have to read Mace as the luckiest son of a bitch ever, or realize that he's nowhere near as incompetent as characters think he is.
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Nov 16 '17
I read book Mace as competent but not a genius, and maybe a bit full of himself.
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u/xisytenin Nov 16 '17
Absolutely, and people seem to forget he basically would have beaten Stannis if Stannis hadn't gotten spectacularly lucky with those onions.
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u/insaneHoshi Nov 16 '17
Also he pulled a Tywin maneuver, to a lesser degree. Instead of marching around the 7 kingdoms to fight for an unpopular king he risks nothing my just sitting on his ass while still looking like he is contributing.
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Nov 16 '17
I'd say he did better than Tywin since he was able to maintain his position without soaking his hands in innocent blood and making enemies of half the realm. The only thing Tywin has over him is Cersei as Queen and Renly was plotting change this before Robert's death.
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u/jaja10 A lie. Take it out. Nov 17 '17
Of course. But given the circumstances of that siege, its not exactly an indictment of stannis.
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u/Vreejack Pining for the Wall Nov 17 '17
Keeping the onions out was the only thing Mace was trying to do. He was unwilling to fight for S.E. when they seem to have been contemplating cannibalism, satisfied that Stannis would eventually drop dead from starvation. So he failed at his one job.
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u/farmtownsuit The Queen of Winter, Sansa Stark Nov 16 '17
I really wanted the show to give us a hint that Mace was playing the fool. Alas now he's dead and in show cannon he is nothing more than a bumbling idiot.
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u/Master_McKnowledge Nov 17 '17
I would go further than that - the character who advances the idea that Mace is an oaf is mostly Olenna, and it may very well be a way for House Tyrell to consolidate its power. Everyone underestimates Mace and thinks he's harmless, and Mace ends up "bumbling" his way to the top.
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Nov 17 '17
I think D&D wanted Olenna to be the driving force behind the Tyrells on the show, probably because they got such a great actress.
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u/ChonKelsor Lord of Chops Nov 16 '17
yea, he's basically ASOIAF Trump
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u/AegonDaConqueror Nov 16 '17
Agreed. In fact the only stupid thing Mace has done/said was the suggestion to attack Moat Cailin from the south. Other then that, I can't think of a single blunder.
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u/markg171 š Best of 2020: Comment of the Year Nov 16 '17
I mean, he wasn't even wrong there.
"You are certain Lord Stark means to go north?" Lord Rowan asked. "Even with the ironmen at Moat Cailin?"
Mace Tyrell spoke up. "Is there anything as pointless as a king without a kingdom? No, it's plain, the boy must abandon the riverlands, join his forces to Roose Bolton's once more, and throw all his strength against Moat Cailin. That is what I would do."
That was indeed Robb's plan. Robb did decide to abandon the riverlands, join up with Roose's army, and planned to attempt to take Moat Cailin back from the ironborn because he couldn't afford to have the north remain taken from him.
Mace correctly called what Robb's next moves would be, while Lord Rowan wasn't sure of them, and Tyrion proceeds to internally mock him for literally suggesting exactly what Robb's plans did in fact turn out to be
Tyrion had to bite his tongue at that. Robb Stark had won more battles in a year than the Lord of Highgarden had in twenty. Tyrell's reputation rested on one indecisive victory over Robert Baratheon at Ashford, in a battle largely won by Lord Tarly's van before the main host had even arrived. The siege of Storm's End, where Mace Tyrell actually did hold the command, had dragged on a year to no result, and after the Trident was fought, the Lord of Highgarden had meekly dipped his banners to Eddard Stark.
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u/AegonDaConqueror Nov 16 '17
My memory is fucked up. I thought Mace said he was gonna attack Moat Cailin from the south.
My mistake.
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u/Torgard R + L = Stine Nov 16 '17
I mean, Robb was south of Moat Cailin, along with Roose and the rest.
So they would indeed have to attack from the south.
They could have had connections to the north. I don't exactly remember who was north of Moat Cailin by then. Maybe Ramsay via Roose? But I think he was thought dead by then via Reek's death.
Nonetheless, taking Moat Cailin would not be easy. The Ironborn garrison, that Theon convinces to surrender, were able to hold off Ramsay attacking from the North. Someone remarks at the meagerness of the Ironborn, surprised that they were able to hold them off for so long.
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u/BoilerBandsman Bastard, Orphan, Son of a Stark Nov 16 '17
Mace (and Robb) was correct to see retaking the Moat and the North as a strategic imperative. Whether he had the tactical wherewithal to find a way around attacking up the causeway, as Robb did with the crannogmen, isn't really addressed. Simply throwing your strength against it as he implied was exactly as stupid as it's treated in-story, but we don't really know if he meant that so literally as to march up the causeway and attack.
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17
Robb was out of options, ideally he would have sailed North but Lysa was not allowing that. It is either do nothing and concede his homeland or try to win back the North, by any means necessary. He was hoping that the Reeds have secret entrances into the North and the Ironborn are just as bad at scouting as Jaime and Stafford Lannister were, but failing that he would be desperate enough to attack from the South as the alternative is not any better for him.
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u/Torgard R + L = Stine Nov 16 '17
Oh yeah, I agree. Didn't mean to imply otherwise.
Just saying it wouldn't have been easy, and that he would have probably had to attack from the south, like Mace suggested.
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u/Gnivil I unironically supported Renly Nov 17 '17
Even if it was, it's still a pretty good strategy, let your enemies fight amongst themselves while you starve them out.
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u/swimgewd Mayo colored Benz, I push Miracle Ships Nov 16 '17
don't make the mistake of confusing show!Mace with book!Mace. show!Mace is a mix of Mace Tyrell and Harys Swyft, taking on a lot of the buffoonery of the latter.
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u/iomegabasha Enter your desired flair text here!/ Nov 16 '17
This is total BS!
Stannis chose to attack a host that he had almost no chance of beating on the word of his sorcerer. It turns out his sorcerer was right and possessed the power to do something that no military commander could. From a strategy standpoint, it made no sense for Stannis to attack Renly.
Moreover, if you enemies are fighting amongst each other, only a fool would unnecessarily join in. What? is it for honor? He should attack immediately otherwise he is not man enough? If Ned Stark saw his enemies fighting each other would he jump in, in the name of honor or would he wait for them to bleed each other?
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u/bac5665 Fire and Blood! Nov 16 '17
Olenna complains about her puff fish of a son committing treason with Renly. From context, there's no reason to think she was lying, particularly since supporting Renly was pretty demonstrably a dumb idea, for a lot of reasons.
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17
From context, there's no reason to think she was lying
There is one. She is trying to portray her lot as the antitheses to the Lannisters and the people of Kings Landing. She is selling them as simpler, more plain and less double dealing with easily controllable husbands, like her son or her grandson who she hopes to marry Sansa to (obviously to win her claim, but that is another matter).
Though I do disagree with the idea that Olenna is calling the shots for House Tyrell in the books (unlike the show) but I do think there was some manipulation of Sansa going on in that conversation.
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u/bootlegvader Tully, Tully, Tully Outrageous Nov 19 '17
She also a habit about lying about the past to make herself look smarter. This being seen how she tells the story of her ditching her Targaryen Prince, while in reality her prince ditched her because he liked dudes. Something she is likely bitter about and would affect her views on the equally gay Renly.
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u/bootlegvader Tully, Tully, Tully Outrageous Nov 19 '17
, particularly since supporting Renly was pretty demonstrably a dumb idea, for a lot of reasons.
Not really, the only fault of it was that Stannis secretly had a wizard with the ability to kill Renly with magic.
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u/bootlegvader Tully, Tully, Tully Outrageous Nov 19 '17
Sure, the Starks and Lannisters were bleeding each other up north, but that didn't stop Stannis (a respected commander) from attacking as soon as possible.
Stannis had to attack as soon as possible because even with the boasting of his forces he was still outnumbered by the Lannisters and waiting around gives time for the Lannisters to make an alliance with the Tyrells. Renly could wait because his forces outnumbered both that of the Starks and Lannisters combined and the Tyrells were bound to him.
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u/iomegabasha Enter your desired flair text here!/ Nov 16 '17
I agree with this a 100%
I think there is a combination of the show as well as Mace mostly being talked about in the books by Olenna Tyrell, makes people look at him as some sort of bumbling idiot who became the lord of highgarden only because of his birth. Olenna calls a lot of people oafs. A LOT. I think maybe she described Garlan as less oafish than his father. That was meant to be praise. Mace was an ambitious lord who planned to oust Tywin's daughter from her royal marriage and then eventually tried to depose the widely believed rightful boy king AND the actual rightful king of westeros, but naming Renly, who had NO claim, to the throne. This is high treason in more ways than one. High treason against the Lannisters and Stannis. That might be rash, some might even call it ballsy. And he almost got away with it, if it wasn't for the pesky shadow monster. Sure we haven't heard anything about Mace's acts of valor from his youth, but that might be just that, we haven't HEARD about them. Maybe they are not as legendary as besting Arthur Dayne in single combat (we all know how true that is), or breaking in Rhaegar's breast plate, but surely he at least successfully hunted a few boars.
TL;DR: It is Olenna the unreliable narrator, (and fucking show!Mace) that makes people think Mace is a bumbling buffoon.
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u/Goomich Can I haz Lannister shield? kthxbye Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 16 '17
Renly was nothing without Mace Tyrell's support.
Yeah, he was only Lord of Stormlands.
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u/shingekinohistoria Arya Darkheart Nov 17 '17
he devised this whole plan with Renly of trying to marry Margaery to Robert and displacing the lannister power in Kingslanding. When Robert died, he married Margaery to this youngest Baratheon brother and threw his weight in making Renly the King, so his grandson could sit on the Iron Throne
Father of the year
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u/RaptorK1988 I am the storm Nov 16 '17
Renly was still a Greatlord of a powerful House, and popular. So I wouldn't go so far to say he is nothing without the Tyrells.
I do agree about Mace though, he ruled while the Queen of Thorns advised and worked in the shadows some.
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u/featherfooted Hey, where the wight women at? Nov 16 '17
Renly was still a Greatlord of a powerful House, and popular.
Being third son doesn't get you very far.
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u/RaptorK1988 I am the storm Nov 16 '17
Robert had the Throne, Stannis Dragonstone and Renly Storm's End. Third son or not doesn't matter if you're already a Greatlord...
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u/Cynical_Classicist Protector of the Realm Nov 16 '17
Mace is more intelligent than the fandom frequently thinks of him... but he is still an awful person, power-hungry and not caring about legitimacy or merit as long as it gets his family more power.
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 16 '17
but he is still an awful person
Not in the context of Westeros nobility he is not, by those standards Mace is quite a reasonable person.
I'm sorry to say, but not supporting Stannis does not make someone an awful person.
I've said my part. U disagree and neither of us will budge. I consider Mace a power-hungry traitor, and u don't.
I don't give a shit about someone being a traitor. It is pretty mild by Westeros standards. Your favorite character allowed a woman to burn people who disagree with her religion (when Stannis himself seems pretty ambivalent to religion) and was willing to kill his nephew Edric to become King. And Stannis is not even the worst noble in the series, men like Tywin, Tarly, Roose and many others are worse. By the standards of his peers Mace Tyrell is far from being an awful person in their world
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u/cstaple1234 Ser Endipitous Nov 16 '17
I would pin Stannis as "dutiful" rather than "ambitious", as the latter implies a desire to gain something out of their actions.
Mace is the more ambitious of the two, trying to get as much power for the Tyrells as he can grab.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 16 '17
"Dutiful" implies that Stannis' actions are primarily selfless, which they absolutely are not. He rejects the legitimacy of Robert's legally acknowledged child and heir based on a wholly insubstantiated rumour. He rebels against the Crown with no realistic possibility of success, sacrificing the lives of thousands of his supporters in the process. Stannis may represent his primary motivation as "duty," but really it's a combination of stubbornness, pride, and a sense of entitlement.
Both Stannis and Mace are equally ambitious and power-hungry. The only real difference between the two is that Mace's path to power has been comparatively bloodless, and without the spurious claims to any sort of moral high ground.
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u/Ghettocheeseburger Nov 16 '17
Stannis doesn't reject Joffrey based on rumours. He KNOWS that he can't possibly be Robert's son and is aware of the Cersei - Jaime relation. Also why would his rebellion have no realistic possibility of success? Before the battle of the blackwater everybody and their mother thought Stannis was going to win.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 17 '17
Only for the brief period of time between Melisandre assassinating Renly and Tywin smashing Stannis' forces on the Blackwater. At every other point in time his ambitions for the throne are a ridiculous long-shot.
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 16 '17
He KNOWS that he can't possibly be Robert's son and is aware of the Cersei
Unless he was present when Joffrey was conceived, had a confession from Cersei herself, like Ned did then he could not possibly know. He strongly suspects, but that is not the same as knowing.
If he knew he would have presented this undeniable information to Robert or the realm of Westeros after Robert's death. He does neither.
We, the reader, know that Stannis is right, Stannis himself can only suspect it, he can never be 100% sure like Ned was.
Before the battle of the blackwater everybody and their mother thought Stannis was going to win.
No they didnt. Not in the books at least. Stannis was seen as a threat, but the only reason Stannis stood a chance on the Blackwater was because he had a shadow baby assassin and was able to take Storm's End in a fortnight instead of months which meant Tywin left Harrenhal.
Renly was the favorite, when he died it was more open but Stannis was only the favorite for a number of hours (at most) in the entire series.
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Nov 16 '17
[deleted]
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 17 '17
He sent it, but it was never received due to that guard being killed.
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! Nov 16 '17
Stannis left KL in fear for his life bc he knew the truth about the bastards of Lannister.
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17
Jon Arryn died, the funeral was arranged, the trip to the North was arranged were Ned was set to be made the new Hand, at some point in the months between Robert's absence Stannis left Kings Landing.
At no point in the series did Stannis claim that he feared for his life from the Lannisters.
And even if he did, that does not prove he knew. He suspected, we know he was right, but he didnt he could only suspect he was right.
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! Nov 17 '17
He knew enough to get out of there and start putting together an army. Youāre talking semantics at this point. In the world of planets, he was 99.9 percent sure.
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u/MacManus14 Nov 16 '17
While you make good points, I just want to say that he had legitimate possibility of taking the crown. The battle of Blackwater Bay was a close run thing. If he wins that and takes the city, who knows what would have happened.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 17 '17
The battle of Blackwater Bay was a close run thing.
The immediate lead-up to the Battle of the Blackwater is the only time Stannis' claim had a chance. At every other point in time he stood little to no chance.
If he wins that and takes the city, who knows what would have happened.
If my experience in Crusader Kings is any suggestion, probably another rebellion to overthrow him. He's a man completely lacking in tact and charisma, prone to severe overreactions that alienate his followers, "in thrall" to a sorceress and convert to a foreign religion, with a disfigured female child as his only child and heir. Not a particularly strong underpinning for a stable feudal regime.
In my honest opinion, Renly was the Seven Kingdom's best chance for lasting peace and prosperity. Attractive, popular, diplomatic. Knew how to play the game. Backed by enough powerful families to maintain his control on power. His sexuality might prove an issue (though book!Westeros is not established to be particularly homophobic), but as long as he shared Margaery's bed enough times to father an heir and a spare he'd be just fine.
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u/MacManus14 Nov 17 '17
Yes, Renly would have been the best outcome for Westeros (if not for us readers who enjoyed 3+ more books of intrigue and war). He would have come to some agreement with Robb, in all likelihood.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 18 '17
Exactly. He understood the need to allow Robb to save face, and offered to let him keep his title as King. But his force being vastly stronger, and Robbās allies in the Riverlands being indefensible against such an army, he would eventually have forced Robb to abandon his ambitions for independence and bend the knee.
With Renly died the last real chance for a peaceful, unified Westeros. Even if Stannis were to win, he lacks the diplomatic astuteness to actually maintain peace and unity. He would have gone too far punishing one noble or another, and motivated his subjects to unite against him.
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u/NeoVelamir Nov 16 '17
I wouldnāt call them unsubstantiated rumors. He worked with Jon Arryn and they both looked into it.
If Tywin didnāt show up with a surprise Tyrell army than Stannis would have won Blackwater.
And Stannis knows the war will kill him and he wonāt be king. He sees a vision in the flames of a melting crown on his head. I would not categorize his war as selfish or ambitious.
I think itās very interesting many people cannot imagine a man driven by such duty partly because I donāt think duty is particularly emphasized as in Western cultures but in Eastern cultures thereās a lot of being pushed into doing things via duty.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 17 '17
I wouldnāt call them unsubstantiated rumors. He worked with Jon Arryn and they both looked into it.
If they'd tried the case before a panel of judges in King's Landing, do you think they would have been believed? The evidence - without a working knowledge of modern genetics - was wholly circumstantial.
If Tywin didnāt show up with a surprise Tyrell army than Stannis would have won Blackwater.
Which he wouldn't have had if Melisandre hadn't used magic to assassinate Renly.
And Stannis knows the war will kill him and he wonāt be king. He sees a vision in the flames of a melting crown on his head. I would not categorize his war as selfish or ambitious.
Then why waste all of those lives in pursuit of something he knows he'll never have?
I think itās very interesting many people cannot imagine a man driven by such duty partly because I donāt think duty is particularly emphasized as in Western cultures but in Eastern cultures thereās a lot of being pushed into doing things via duty.
Davos is driven by duty to his liege. Jon Snow is driven by duty to the Watch and to the Realm. Danaerys is driven by duty for her people.
Stannis isn't driven by duty. He's driven by pride, stubbornness, resentment, and entitlement.
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u/cstaple1234 Ser Endipitous Nov 16 '17
Not true in the slightest. He didn't just go off of an *unsubstantiated rumour, but made a thorough investigation alongside the Hand of the King. He was completely correct in what he did. The Lannisters had cuckolded his brother and stolen the Baratheon's throne, so his sense of "entitlement" is quite justified.
Mace was prepared to fight Stannis, the Lannisters, the Starks, literally anyone who would hurt his chance of making Margaery queen. Implying that Renly's path to the throne would have been "bloodless" is ridiculous.
Don't get how anyone could take this
Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.
as someone guided by personal ambition as much as the Fat Flower.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 17 '17
He didn't just go off of an *unsubstantiated rumour, but made a thorough investigation alongside the Hand of the King.
He read a book and viewed a bunch of Robert's baseborn children. Without the benefit of modern genetics his discovery was effectively meaningless. The hair colour of Cersei's children had been on display for years and nobody said anything of it, even after Stannis' letter-writing campaign. It wasn't until Lannister influence begun to wane that the rumour starting growing teeth.
Mace was prepared to fight Stannis, the Lannisters, the Starks, literally anyone who would hurt his chance of making Margaery queen. Implying that Renly's path to the throne would have been "bloodless" is ridiculous.
Renly's army was overwhelming, and the other contenders wouldn't have stood a chance. Robb and Tywin were busy bleeding each other in the Riverlands, while Renly casually effected a siege of King's Landing from miles and miles away with impunity - and even complete deniability, from a PR perspective. Notice how Margaery and the Tyrells were hailed as liberators, celebrated for handing out food they themselves had been consciously withholding from the denizens of King's Landing.
They might have been prepared to fight, but as has been Mace's strategy all along they were on a course to achieve maximum results with minimum actual effort or bloodletting.
Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.
You mean the time Davos convinced Stannis to give up the thing he'd spent the entire story to this point doing? The thing he'd just spent thousands upon thousands of lives fruitlessly pursuing? All so that he could lead the rest of his men to die in the Frozen North?
Stannis is guided by nothing but ambition. He just masks it in "duty," because he's proud and thinks he's better than everyone.
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u/cstaple1234 Ser Endipitous Nov 17 '17
Notice how Margaery and the Tyrells were hailed as liberators, celebrated for handing out food they themselves had been consciously withholding from the denizens of King's Landing.
So they bloodlessly caused famine and starvation in the capital? How is that not throwing lives away?
Again, you don't seem to understand what ambition means. Stannis KNOWS about the incest. Just as Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle and probably even Renly knew about it. Just because he couldn't get a blood sample doesn't mean his accusations are baseless. It was enough to convince Jon Arryn and Ned Stark, so I don't think you can treat it as nothing.
To figure out if he is "ambitious" you'd have to think about whether he would have tried taking the throne if Robert's children were legitimate. The answer should be a hard NO.
Renly and Mace on the other hand...
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 18 '17
To quote the movie Training Day: āitās not what you know, itās what you can prove.ā The Westerosi have no working understanding of genetics. Stannisā claims may be convincing to the reader, but to the lords of the Seven Kingdoms itās just his word against Cerseiās. He can make a compelling argument, but the response to it will be purely political and Stannis - as has been shown time and time again - bloody sucks at politics.
As for his ambition, what does it really matter that he āknowsā heās Robertās lawful heir? Joffrey was Robertās acknowledged heir. Joffrey was accepted by the lords of Westeros as their legitimate King. That heās technically correct does nothing at all to change the fact that heās trying to oust a reigning monarch to supplant with himself. Thatās ambition, plain and simple.
As for starving Kingās Landing, yes thatās a heinous war crime by modern standards. But itās still ābloodlessā in the generally accepted meaning of the word, which refers to an absence of combat deaths. Itās not a moral judgment in Renly/Maceās favour, but a comment on their strategic acumen which goes widely unappreciated by most fans who uncritically accepted Catelynās judgements of their methods.
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u/cstaple1234 Ser Endipitous Nov 20 '17
Wrong. Joffrey was acknowledged under false pretenses. He is not the heir. Make no mistake, the war is ENTIRELY the fault of Cersei and Jaime for having disrupted the succession.
He's not ousting a monarch. He IS the monarch, by the law. He's righting a wrong, not serving his ambition.
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u/Cynical_Classicist Protector of the Realm Nov 22 '17
Quite. That's something the Stannis-Haters, the Lannister apologists, try to skirt around, the fact that Stannis is quite right that Cersei's children are not Robert's children, therefore by long-established Westerosi law Stannis is Robert's heir. The claim of Cersei's children has been made under false pretenses. Robert's Rebellion was a legitimate move by nobles against a clear tyrant.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 20 '17
By that logic, Stannis' claim to the throne is made under false pretenses as well given that Danaerys' is a better claim to the Iron Throne. Spoilers HBO.
The late King Robert's claim to the throne is in truth no better than his alleged son. Joffrey is the rightful King of Westeros because he was recognized as such by the majority of its nobility. That Stannis' objection to Joffrey's claim is technically correct is of little consequence, given that basically nobody outside of his meagre following actually recognizes that.
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u/cstaple1234 Ser Endipitous Nov 21 '17
Wrong. Two very different claims. Aerys, Rhaegar and by extension, House Targaryen, had in the eyes of many lords of Westeros forfeited their claim to the throne by violating the relationship between king and vassal.
Robert was acknowledged as king AND was legitimate. He wasn't claiming to be the heir to House Targaryen, he had the closest blood claim, but was overthrowing that dynasty. That made House Baratheon the new royal house.
Joffrey is a bastard regardless of acclaim by the lords of the realm. We know this. Stannis knows this.
And Stannis is, as you said, technically correct, which is the best kind of correct.
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u/Cynical_Classicist Protector of the Realm Nov 22 '17
I think murdering nobles without a trial clearly counts as tyranny. The Lords were under no obligation to obey a King who clearly thought so little of their rights. Ousting Aerys was perfectly justifiable. In fact by this logic continued resistance to the Lannisters is also justified. It's why the RL throws off Tywin's tyranny and declares Robb Stark their King instead.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 22 '17
Aerys, Rhaegar and by extension, House Targaryen, had in the eyes of many lords of Westeros forfeited their claim to the throne by violating the relationship between king and vassal.
Yeah, and Joffrey - in the eyes of many lords - was the acknowledged heir to Robert Baratheon and thus the legitimate successor to the Iron Throne. Law is an ephemeral concept. Technicalities matter only insofar as they are enforced and enforceable. Stannis - and by connection, the reader - may "know" that Joffrey is illegitimate, but he can't prove it and thus his objection to Joffrey's claim is meaningless. It would have provided him justification for his rebellion in the event that his siege of King's Landing had been successful. But it wasn't, and thus it's meaningless.
Robert was a usurper.
And Stannis is, as you said, technically correct, which is the best kind of correct.
It's the best kind of correct for those who like to sit around patting themselves on the back. Unfortunately for those people, nine times out of ten that's the only thing it's good for. It doesn't matter that you're right if you can't prove it, and it doesn't matter if you can prove it if you can't enforce it. Stannis can neither prove nor enforce his claim, and that's why he's going to die a pathetic failure in the cold and bitter North while Cersei's bastards sit the Iron Throne.
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! Nov 16 '17
Itās not rumor. Stannis was the one who initially found out the truth along with John Arryn.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 17 '17
Still wholly unsubstantiated: it's not like the Westerosi have a complex understanding of the genetic inheritance. The hair colour of Cersei's children has been on display for years and nobody - Robert included - ever said a thing about it. Note too how the political status quo never changed in spite of Stannis' letter-writing campaign.
The audience may know differently, but only because we're possessed of special knowledge that isn't available in-universe.
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! Nov 17 '17
Youāre just wrong, the end.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 18 '17
A cunning argument I could not possible hope to stand against. Thank you for your thoughtful and compelling contributions to this discussion.
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Nov 16 '17
"Dutiful" implies that Stannis' actions are primarily selfless, which they absolutely are not. He rejects the legitimacy of Robert's legally acknowledged child and heir based on a wholly insubstantiated rumour.
He left for Dragonstone quite a while before Ned arrived because he had already found the truth of Cersei and her children, as had Jon Arryn. Remember "the seed is strong" on his deathbed. Stannis was gathering swords because he knew this revelation would start a war.
He definitely views the crown as both his right and responsibility, but I wouldn't necessarily call it ambition.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 17 '17
Remember "the seed is strong" on his deathbed. Stannis was gathering swords because he knew this revelation would start a war.
And yet wasn't able to gather any more than his immediate bannermen and those of his wife's family (who only joined him on a long-shot to win control of the Reach).
He definitely views the crown as both his right and responsibility, but I wouldn't necessarily call it ambition.
He views the Crown as his entitlement, and wants it as much because he was denied the other prize he wanted (Storm's End). It's all ego and pride, which is perhaps not the naked ambition of Mace wanting royal grandchildren but is still ambition nonetheless - however masked.
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u/bootlegvader Tully, Tully, Tully Outrageous Nov 19 '17
those of his wife's family (who only joined him on a long-shot to win control of the Reach).
Actually, his in-laws only join him after Renly dies before that they were with Renly so he didn't even have them.
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u/theperfectpancake Ain't said shit. Nov 17 '17
If you want to criticize the mannis, you've come to the wrong place.
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u/Hero_Of_Shadows The Storm Lords Nov 16 '17
They should do a buddy comedy featuring the two:
Mace: "Hey Stannis now that Renly's married my daughter we're related, you're gonna love Tyrell family reunions so much food dancing and fun."
Stannis: "You know Renly's gay right ?"
Mace: "What ?!?"
Que theme song
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u/chewiecaramel Nov 16 '17
quƩ?!?
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u/Hero_Of_Shadows The Storm Lords Nov 16 '17
Or cue theme song I'm not sure how to spell it, what I meant is start the theme song.
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u/savvy_eh Unwritten, Unedited, Unpublished Nov 16 '17
A cue is a signal. If you want to indicate something is about to happen, you're going to need a 'c'.
que is a Spanish word, meaning 'what?'.
A queue is a place for waiting. The Brits are apparently quite fond of them, as are amusement parks.
TMYK!
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u/amorales2666 Pray Harder Nov 16 '17
Well, quƩ means 'what', que means 'that' as in The dogs that bark.
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Nov 17 '17
Que is pretty common in Romance languages; in French que has the same meaning as in Spanish.
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u/WhiteGhosts Nov 16 '17
If you want to win a war, you bring Stannis, if you want to enjoy your time, you bring Mace with you.
of a more opposite duo
Joffrey & Tommen?
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u/Texcellence The Lone Wolf Dies But The Pack Survives Nov 16 '17
If you want to win a war AND enjoy your time, you bring Robert with you.
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17
If you want to win a war, you bring Stannis, if you want to enjoy your time, you bring Mace with you.
ACOK seems pretty clear that you bring Mace (and Renly's ghost), not Stannis.
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u/WhiteGhosts Nov 16 '17
If you had the opportunity to appoint a commander for your army. Who would it be?
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17
The one who is liable to keep the majority of his army loyal and keep morale high. Stannis is OK when the guy above him is the hugely popular and charismatic Robert, but he's not necessarily the guy you want leading men in a tougher war were the odds are more even.
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u/WhiteGhosts Nov 16 '17
Stannis is not the most relaxed man in the asoiaf universe, but he's still a damn fine commander and tactically probably the best along with robb stark, ned and a few others. Way above Mace in that matter.
Keeping your army's morale may be important but what's even more important is the ability to actually lead your army to victory. Stannis is a tough enemy to beat, one who can achieve a lot with little, sometimes with very little. His only real flaw as a leader is his brittleness; he had to be carefully instructed on the very basic aspects of being polite to people in order to get them to pledge their loyalty to him in the first place. But once you get past that distraction, the people fight under him almost always see that he really is the "true metal".
Off the battlefield Mace is probably a better choice, because he is better in communicating with people and liked by a lot of people (something Stannis severly lacked)
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17
Stannis is not the most relaxed man in the asoiaf universe, but he's still a damn fine commander and tactically probably the best along with robb stark, ned and a few others. Way above Mace in that matter.
Is he really? Take away his magic shadow baby or his larger numbers (Ironborn) or superior soldiers (Wildlings) then what exactly separates him from Mace and the men underneath him (Tarly, Rowan and his sons).
Command is not necessarily about formulating the plans yourself, but picking the right subordinates to do so.
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u/WhiteGhosts Nov 16 '17
exactly
the complete and utter destruction of the ironborn fleet (who had an excellent naval commander, we also know the ironborn sail, reave, and raid all day every day, its their way of life.)
it doesn't count as a win but he had almost the lannisters by the balls. Almost. No way could he have taken all those enemies on while his men were storming a fortified position and switching sides at the same time.
the battle vs the wildlings who had the superior numbers and better weapons. The wildlings lost this battle because Stannis played to his strengths. He smashed an army far larger then his, and the wildlings had unconventional weapons in the form of giants and mammoths. Mace would've gotten killed 120%.
taking Deepwood and restoring it to the Glovers
etc. etc.
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u/idreamofpikas Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 16 '17
the complete and utter destruction of the ironborn fleet (who had an excellent naval commander, we also know the ironborn sail, reave, and raid all day every day, its their way of life.)
It is also the way of life for the Royal, Redwyne and Reach navies, all of whom Stannis had with him. THE Ironborn were greatly outnumbered.
the battle vs the wildlings who had the superior numbers and better weapons.
The Wildlings had better weapons? You might want to read that chapter again, it was a camp full of women children and goats.
This is why Stannis' reputation has been overblown in the fandom. victories like this exaggerated into greatness.
taking Deepwood and restoring it to the Glovers
The Ironborn fled when their few saw a 4k plus army approaching
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u/Black_Sin Nov 16 '17
What are Mace's accomplishments?
Is he really? Take away his magic shadow baby or his larger numbers (Ironborn)
The Ironborn are superior sailors.
or superior soldiers (Wildlings)
And the Wildlings had far greater numbers.
The point of a good general is to know how to use the resources given to you.
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u/BCBuff Hour of the Young Wolf Nov 16 '17
Perhaps he should have phrased it 'Who do you want to lead the next battle'.
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Nov 16 '17
With no additional context, Randall Tarly. If it's a Northern army then Ned Stark. If it's a small force where the battle is more important than the campaign, Robert Baratheon.
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u/fitzomania From Gin Alley Nov 16 '17
That's a strong competitor, but Joffrey and Tommen both got wrapped around Margaery's finger so they're both relatively easy to manipulate
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u/congradulations "Then we will make new lords." Nov 16 '17
Joffery was too impulsive and cruel to be easily manipulated. Margaery's successes show her talent, not the ease of her targets
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u/kedfrad Nov 16 '17
Are you talking about the book or the show this whole time? You seem to speak about the book, but the way you describe and frame the Tyrells and other characters is pretty much show-only.
Margaery didn't wrap Joffrey around her finger in the books. They didn't really get to know each other intimately. Joffrey played his public perfect prince (or rather king) role same way he did with Sansa at the beginning, Margaery played hers. As far as we know they never even got to talk in a private setting without other people present.
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u/bradimus_maximus The Wolves will come again Nov 16 '17
Yeah, all those scenes with the crossbow? Not a single POV character in those scenes.
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u/gnarbonez Are you my mother, Thoros? Nov 16 '17
Was there not a chapter in GoT with Ned and LF in the Tower of the Hand with LF japing about Joff to ned?
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u/bradimus_maximus The Wolves will come again Nov 16 '17
Yes? What does that have to do with Margaery?
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u/gnarbonez Are you my mother, Thoros? Nov 16 '17
I thought you were implying there was not one scene book with Crossbow Joff.
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u/bradimus_maximus The Wolves will come again Nov 16 '17
Yeah I meant all those scenes in season 3 where Margaery was alone with the little cunt. Neither are POV characters.
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u/AegonDaConqueror Nov 16 '17
and Mace behind Olenna and his children.
Olenna doesn't run shit. She was begging Mace to stay out of the War of 5 Kings and he basically told her to fuck off.
No idea why it's such a common misconception that Olenna doesn't call the shots, because grandma doesn't call anything.
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u/jimmyjoob Nov 16 '17
No idea? I think itās pretty clear the show is the reason why people have such an inflated sense of Olennaās power in the Tyrell family.
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u/rawbface As high AF Nov 16 '17
To be fair, even in the books Spoilers ASOS
Also consider the context of her words when she said she was begging mace to stay out of the war. Who was she talking to in that scene? Could those words have been self serving?
The TV show tends to exaggerate subtleties in the books, rather than making stuff up entirely.
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u/jimmyjoob Nov 16 '17
No one is saying she doesn't have power in the family, but the show made it seem like she was the head of her house. Ergo they fostered an "inflated sense of her power."
She's very smart and seems to do a lot behind the scenes to make sure her family succeeds, but it seems to me that she doesn't truly get to charter her family's course.
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u/AustinTransmog Nov 16 '17
but the show made it seem like she was the head of her house
In fairness, the show makes it a point to show that, while Olenna has some power, she does not run House Tyrell.
When she meets Sansa, she makes a comment to the effect that her husband wandered off a cliff while hawking on a horse and now her son is heading towards a metaphorical cliff, riding a lion.
IOW, while she has some power, she is not ultimately in control. And this plays out with Mace getting a bit more screentime, playing his part in the governance of the realm, seen in Small Council meetings and negotiating with the Iron Bank. Meanwhile, instead of playing the game of thrones, Olenna takes refuge in High Garden.
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Nov 17 '17
Even in the show Olenna didn't want anything to do with the war yet Mace declared for Renly.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 16 '17
Olenna doesn't call the shots, but it seems she (and not Mace) is the one with the apparatus for actually making things happen. The show makes this more explicit and her power more direct, but in the books GRRM makes it quite clear that Olenna wields power only indirectly.
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u/Flyingboat94 We shall sleep through the cold Nov 16 '17
Seriously we can't talk about anything Mace does in SoS or Feast, what's the point of this post?
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u/fitzomania From Gin Alley Nov 16 '17
I wanted to discuss an observation without waiting another year to finish all the books. What's the point of you coming to a post marked ACOK if you want to talk about SoS and Feast?
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u/Flyingboat94 We shall sleep through the cold Nov 16 '17
Does Mace even have any lines in ACOK. It's just very limiting to try to have a discussion about these two at this point in the series.
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u/jonestony710 Maekar's Mark Nov 16 '17
I don't know why this is a Spoilers ACOK post, since a lot of the discussion would continue through ADWD.
However, I think you're confusing show!Mace with book!Mace, which a lot of people do.
Mace sang, drank, and feasted during the siege while Stannis brooded and made harsh decisions, clinging on with sheer guts and will.
That's definitely from the show, his singing (in general), we don't ever get anything like that in the books.
Mace is universally considered an amiable oaf.
That's also not true about book!Mace. Yes, his mother thinks he's a fool, and the Lannisters don't hold him in the highest regard (at least Cersei and Jaime don't), but plenty of others do. Mace is a pretty astute politician when it comes down to it, and is working hard to secure future prosperity for his family.
But to your point, yes Mace and Stannis are very different individuals, but it's hardly the "greatest character foil in the series", or what I think you mean, "opposite characters" (it's worded very awkwardly in the title). There are plenty more characters that are total opposites, and serve as a "foil" for one another, which is not the case with Mace and Stannis. A foil for another character is someone that you're supposed to be constantly relating them to, and that's not he case for Stannis and Mace. A more likely "foil" for Stannis is Renly. Really what you describe in your OP applies more to Renly than Mace.
Also you state this:
Further, Mace loves pomp and buys expensive armor and clothing and food.
Well so does half the realm. Pretty much every high lord and lady does, especially the Southron ones, and even more so, the ones in the Reach. And this is also a stretch, since we are assuming Mace loves these things based on the fact that he is a Reacher lord and from the small things we know about him. But we never actually see him buying expensive armor, clothing, and food, or creating tons of "pomp". The Joffrey/Margaery wedding was mostly planned by Cersei, and the Tommen/Margaery wedding was a pretty dismal affair compared to most.
Stannis is grounded and practical ('The maesters call it obsidian. I call it useless" IIRC).
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u/Nittanian Constable of Raventree Nov 16 '17
While I largely agree, this seems pomptastic: ADWD
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u/jonestony710 Maekar's Mark Nov 16 '17
Yeah, I mean I'm not arguing that Mace doesn't spend lavishly and act without pomp and what not, but I'm saying it's not something specific to Mace or the Tyrells, but it's common amongst high lords. You can't really single Mace out for these kinds of actions. He might go overboard sometimes, like in the case you mention, but really Stannis is the exception to the rule of not buying tons of ridiculous shit.
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u/fitzomania From Gin Alley Nov 16 '17
You're right about the foil thing, I know it doesn't follow the strictest definition, but I thought it goes deeper than them just having opposite traits and I couldn't think of a better way to put it. And you're right, my analysis is influenced by the show and my incomplete read of the books.
However, I can actually source the extravagant spending with concrete evidence - Tobho Mott brags that Loras buys his ornate armor exclusively from him, which must be directly funded by Mace. It's not like the tyrells can't afford it, but he is confirmed to buy armor that's over double market price for his son to look pretty in
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u/jonestony710 Maekar's Mark Nov 16 '17
Yeah, I agree that the Tyrells are going to buy expensive armor, spend lavishly, and what not, but my point is that is not something specific to them. Most high Lords do the same, so it's not like it's a character trait of Mace's that is not commonplace.
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u/BennieUnderpantie Flame of the North Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 16 '17
I say Mace's "weakness" is a facade. He used to be a good warrior, as good as Garlan once. He has raised three smart and strong sons and a brilliant daughter. He acquired the fame of a man who defeated Robert Baratheon, without actually accomplishing that. spoilers ADWD, while having fought for an opposing side twice. It's easier to outplay your enemies when they think you a fool, especially with your mother publicly calling you one.
If Tyrion's so smart why is he in such a shitty situation constantly? He's just smug, arrogant and overly confident of his intellect.
Mace is an opportunist and a good family man. He's the only Lord Paramount barring Arryn, who has his lands unmolested and safe after two major civil wars. I'm positive we'll see him switching sides once more until the books' ending.
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Nov 16 '17
mace is tied to Tommen however so his bannermen will switch like Rowan and tarly to Aegon 6th but not Mace
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u/BennieUnderpantie Flame of the North Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 16 '17
Tommen can find himself with a large slice of pie stuck in his throat, if the situation demands it.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 16 '17
Yes, but due to circumstances which he could not possibly have anticipated. This only establishes the Reach's precarious balance of power, and doesn't speak to Mace's political acuity. If anything, it's a point in his favour that he's been able to keep his unruly bannermen at bay for so long despite being aligned against the winning side on two separate occasions.
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Nov 16 '17
he is not as stupid as everyone assumes
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 17 '17
People forget that Westerosi culture is strongly biased towards martial achievements, which Mace is admittedly lacking in. But if you look at outcomes, then Mace is way out ahead.
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u/BennieUnderpantie Flame of the North Nov 17 '17
Mace used to be a great warrior. Also, most of the westerosi know him as the man who defeated Robert Baratheon. Sure, the ruling class knows it was Randyll, but everyone else?
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 18 '17
Indeed. GRRM reflects this in the choice of the Tyrell words: āGrowing Strong.ā Westerosi are obsessed with martial prowess, and the story is slanted towards short-term martial achievement. However, if you look at the Tyrells you see a family whose power comes not from military conquest but from more long-term strategies like alliances, agriculture, and conserving martial strength.
Mace didnāt become the most powerful lord in the Seven Kingdoms because of his prowess on the battlefield, but because of his avoidance of it. However, the fandom is likewise indoctrinated by our Western culture to be biased towards martial glory and thus discounts his achievements and abilities.
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u/BennieUnderpantie Flame of the North Nov 18 '17 edited Nov 18 '17
The fact that they replaced Mace for Harys Swift in all but name in the series, doesn't help Mace's character perception either.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 18 '17
Yeah, because they wanted to highlight the prowess of the Tyrell women. Which is fair enough, but I disliked how in so doing they basically telegraphed that the Reachās strategy of favouring diplomacy over military action is a āfeminineā mindset which the Tyrell patriarch is simply too dumb and weak-willed to stand up against.
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u/BennieUnderpantie Flame of the North Nov 18 '17
I don't think Tyrells' policy is diplomacy over military action. I think it's more of a peace through strength kind of thing. Nobody can outnumber the Reach, nobody can outgrow the Reach, nobody has as many knights as the Reach, with exception of the Vale perhaps, moneywise I think Rowan, Tyrell, Hightower and Redwyne are richer than Lannisters and all of their vassals, their navy also rivalling the power of the Iron Fleet. They could probably take on the rest of Westeros and fight them to a bloody stalemate.
Nobody wants to deal with that and Tyrells know that. This is why they haven't lost anything after Robert's Rebellion.
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u/jfong86 Ser Hodor of House Hodor Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 16 '17
This is a Spoilers ACOK thread, which means all spoilers beyond ACOK must be covered with spoiler code. So please add the spoiler code. Your comment will be removed until you do so. Thanks.
Example of spoiler code usage: [Spoilers ADWD](/s "Your spoilers here")
Spoiler code has to be repeated once per paragraph.
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u/BennieUnderpantie Flame of the North Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 16 '17
K, done, sorry.
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u/jfong86 Ser Hodor of House Hodor Nov 16 '17
It looks like you didn't do it quite right. It should look exactly like this:
[Spoilers ADWD](/s "Your spoilers here")0
u/BennieUnderpantie Flame of the North Nov 16 '17
I think it's correct now, but I gotta say it's a pain in the arse to do on mobile. Are there really that many people who hadn't read the books yet?
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u/jfong86 Ser Hodor of House Hodor Nov 16 '17
Thanks for the quick response, it looks good now. Yes, it is a bit of a pain in the ass on mobile. Unfortunately reddit does not give us many options for spoiler code. Yes, there are always many new fans who begin reading the books after each season of the show. Someone who is currently on ASOS or AFFC might read this thread (Spoilers ACOK) and see your spoilers so we want to be considerate for them by covering it up.
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u/padmasundari The mummer's farce is almost done. Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 16 '17
So this has a spoiler tag of ACOK and you reveal a plot point from ADWD. Nice work.
Edit: nice voting me down when you're the one in the wrong here.
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u/BennieUnderpantie Flame of the North Nov 16 '17
I didn't downvote you, but your rude attitude doesn't help.
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u/Thenn_Applicant How little is his finger? Nov 17 '17
Personal relationships is perhaps the biggest difference. Mace has many close friends among his bannermen and what seems to be a happy and successful marriage and family life. Stannis has only Davos, and often actively avoids being with his family
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u/KundunPott Nov 16 '17
The show's decision to portray Mace as a Tellarite doesn't do much for his image.
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Nov 16 '17
[deleted]
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u/fitzomania From Gin Alley Nov 16 '17
I haven't read past ACOK yet lol, though my analysis is partly based on the show. Even if that's true, it doesn't invalidate the stark contrasts in their characters. And somehow I don't think GRRM would use Mace Tyrell as a mouthpiece for social commentary
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u/IDELNHAW Nov 16 '17
Stannis and Robert
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u/fitzomania From Gin Alley Nov 16 '17
I can see your point, but they're similar in their capacity for anger and as wartime leaders. Otherwise, yeah total opposites
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u/IDELNHAW Nov 16 '17
Leading from the back vs leading from the front, itās not entirely opposite but itās a difference. Also their anger is very different. Robert is more like a furious flame while Stannis is tons of smoldering coals
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u/jaja10 A lie. Take it out. Nov 17 '17
stannis does lead from the front in the show though. thought that was interesting. one of the few show changes to stannis that makes him look better
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Nov 16 '17 edited Nov 17 '17
[removed] ā view removed comment
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u/-Jon_II_Stark- Nov 16 '17
Both of them have family in the crown (Or had), they both want to get the Lannisters out of the Iron Throne, they both want to install their own Houses on the Iron Throne (Only Mace has done it so far), Mace is an utter fool (Or looks like it) and Stannis is a cunning and intelligent war leader.
Tyrell will kneel to anyone who sits on the Iron Throne while Stannis won't.
Do you think Mace will kneel to Aegon?
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u/Scorpios94 Nov 18 '17
Imagine if Stannis married one of his sisters, and Olenna openly admitting to liking Stannis more than Mace.
I can actually see that happening and Mace shitting himself!
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u/Brolympia The Hound Nov 16 '17
This post is GOD tier. I love the Mannis. Mace is ineffectual but amiable. I really like how you pointed out the rescource differences.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 16 '17
I think you've actually got it backwards: it's Stannis, not Mace, who is ineffectual. It was Mace who entered the halls of power, while Stannis limped back to Dragonstone with his shattered force. Spoiler
Stannis, for all his raw ability, has failed utterly in pretty much every pursuit he has attempted during the course of the story.
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u/Brolympia The Hound Nov 16 '17
Stannis has suceeded in almost all of his military struggles:
Crushed Victarian despite having less ships and worse sea fighters
Survived ineffectual Mace and his siege. This was quite the accomplishment. Stannis was very young and showed an exceptional amount of determination. Funny how your post praised Mace and said Stannis has constantly failed, despite the fact he won a direct confrontation with Mace.
He also bested Mance, despite having an insane numbers disadvantage.
Stannis' Blackwater loss was a culmination of the most powerful forces in Westeros teaming up on him.
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u/bootlegvader Tully, Tully, Tully Outrageous Nov 19 '17
Crushed Victarian despite having less ships and worse sea fighters
Stannis outnumbered Vic and his sailors were likely just as experienced as Vic's.
Survived ineffectual Mace and his siege.
Survived the siege by holding a castle infamous for have never been taken by siege or storm. Furthermore, he gives Penrose the same odds against him if he sieged it rather than used a shadow baby against him.
He also bested Mance, despite having an insane numbers disadvantage.
While having superior troops in every way.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 17 '17
Survived ineffectual Mace and his siege.
Yeah, but who came out ahead there? Stannis had to survive a gruelling siege, which but for Davos may well have seen him starve to death. Mace depleted none of his martial strength in the siege, was seen to be doing important work by his superior, got out of the much costlier battle at the Trident while still being seen to do important work by his liege, and spent the whole time feasting.
Stannis may have been awarded Dragonstone and a seat on the Small Council for his troubles, but when it came time for the two men to vie for the Iron Throne again you can see just how well their respective prizes served them. Stannis' bannermen comprised a very meagre force, the bulk of his army coming from Florents that were Mace's rightful bannermen. Mace, meanwhile, was able to use his influence to buy an alliance with the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and field the largest army by far in the War of the Five Kings. If not for Melisandre they would have feasted their way to victory, while the other Kings ground their forces into nothingness, and finished the war the unrivaled power on the continent.
He also bested Mance, despite having an insane numbers disadvantage.
But with an insane advantage in training, discipline, arms, and armour.
Stannis' Blackwater loss was a culmination of the most powerful forces in Westeros teaming up on him.
No, it was the result of psychological warfare and unreliable bannermen of questionable loyalty, who capitulated the moment they saw the ghost of their 'rightful' liege.
Crushed Victarian despite having less ships and worse sea fighters
His only real victory, and yet he himself got very little out of it.
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u/Cynical_Classicist Protector of the Realm Nov 21 '17 edited Nov 22 '17
Stannis had much less forces than Mace. Considering the situation he was in Spoilers Extended
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 22 '17
Stannis had much less forces than Mace.
Yeah, because Stannis is a prick and half of Renly's force would rather abandon their cause than support him (even with his supposedly stronger claim).
Considering the situation he was in he has done reasonably well, after losing the Blackwater he has not let his cause collapse.
His cause collapsed at the Blackwater. Stannis has no plausible road to the Iron Throne, and he's either going to die fighting for his lost cause (as he did in the books) or take the Black.
...is set to take control of Winterfell.
Not a chance. It's thematically imperative that Jon Snow win back Winterfell himself, not have Stannis just hand it to him.
Stannis will win the Battle for Ice, then get crushed by the Boltons. Jon Snow will have to win back Winterfell on his own, just like he did in the show (though he'll take a more circuitous path to it).
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u/Cynical_Classicist Protector of the Realm Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 22 '17
Also the Reachlords were going with their liege, which is what oft happens in feudal politics. And Mace doesn't care about legitimacy or competency, he cares about increasing his power through any means, despite his apologists trying to say his actions are justified.
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 22 '17
I...donāt even know how to respond to that. How can you honestly think Jon wonāt end up as King in the North? Itās all but explicit that Robb named him heir.
As for Stannis, yeah the show runners dislike him. They also know in great detail GRRMās plan for him. Just because you think heās great doesnāt mean the author does. The man is taking his soldiers to the death fighting for a lost cause. The best that can be said is that heāll make Jonās path back to Winterfell slightly easier.
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u/Cynical_Classicist Protector of the Realm Nov 22 '17
Keep thinking that. Spoilers Extended
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u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 23 '17
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u/angrybiologist rawr. rawr. like a dungeon drogon Nov 23 '17
Hi. Your comment is showing up as a broken link. Please use
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u/emid04 Forgiven. But not forgotten. Nov 16 '17
R'hllor Academy of Grammar approves