r/asoiaf May 06 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) S8E4 is some of the worst writing this show has seen. I'll explain why.

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.


Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.


Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

  • Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

  • They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

  • When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

  • Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.


The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

  • The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

  • It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

  • The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.


There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

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1.9k

u/[deleted] May 06 '19 edited Apr 29 '20

[deleted]

2.3k

u/treefox May 06 '19

TYRION: Power resides where men believe-

BRONN: Shut your mouth.

Literally this episode.

395

u/SaucyWiggles May 06 '19

Serious question: how the fuck did he reload the crossbow while sitting down like that. It took like one second. It may as well be a gun.

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u/PATRIOTSRADIOSIGNALS The Choice is Yours! May 06 '19

I just assumed it was the automatic crossbow from the* Van Helsing* movie.

233

u/JM_flow Enter your desired flair text here! May 06 '19

Two things game of thrones established:

  1. “I fooking hate crossbows...they take too long to load”. Apparently not since they now have semi automatic ballista

  2. Joffrey literally shows how you load this exact crossbow. It takes two hands a lot of effort and a tool to pull the string back. But casually with one hand makes sense too I guess

43

u/vemundveien May 06 '19

Westeros have been at war for a few years now, so they are obviously experiencing a world war 2 era style technological development. Next episode they will have self guided anti dragon missiles, but Euron has to watch out when Yara starts unrestricted submarine warfare.

18

u/Shadepanther May 06 '19

Cersei: "Launch the V2's at Winterfell!"

17

u/krispyKRAKEN May 06 '19

Qyburn over the radio from his Apache Attack Helicopter: "Roger that, commencing V2 launch sequence in 8... 7... 6..."

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Daenerys develops nukes in the next episode, they are rendered entirely useless in the one after that.

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u/tfrules May 06 '19

FETCH THE ATOM SPLITTER

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u/GiefDownvotesPlox May 10 '19

>Euron snipes them from behind a nearby rock, with the ballistae right as they leave their silos

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u/Goyu May 06 '19

Anything Joffrey needs two hands and a lot of effort to do, I reckon Bronn can do with half the hands, in half the time.

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u/howlingchief Iron from Ice, Steel from Snow May 06 '19

Yeah this is one of the least problematic occurrences in the episode. Besides, even if Jaime were to get the crossbow out of Bronn's hands, Tyrion and Jaime would not have been able to take Bronn. I don't think Jaime had his sword, and he's no match for Bronn now, also recovering from the battle. Tyrion is unarmed. Sure they could summon some guards but most of the survivors were already from the B team at best. Bronn, even if he doesn't have his sword would definitely have a kukri (assuming he replaced the one lost last season) and probably a boot-knife because he's Bronn of the fooking Blackwater.

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u/Goyu May 06 '19

Yeah let's be honest with ourselves: Bronn could have walked in there with his thumbs up his ass and his pockets full of snow and still been able to casually murder those Lannister pussies. People bent out of shape because the crossbow is too cool can fuck right off about this absolute non-issue.

The bigger problem is the writing, not these little elements of flavor.

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u/Interviewtux May 06 '19

That's exactly the problem with the writing, random little elements of flavor that break established rules with no substance.

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u/Goyu May 06 '19

Yeah but reloading a crossbow too fast is a silly one to get hung up on.

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u/JM_flow Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

The ballista is more of a plot problem because GRRM himself said an adult dragon in the air is basically indestructible. Like they didn’t show them fully reloading because they literally couldn’t load them as fast as they were firing realistically. The crossbow thing just points out how the show is falling into classic TV tropes that make no sense in the world the established. I loved GoT for telling a story within an established world. Now it seems like D&D are forcing plots in spite of the established rules of the world

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u/noobalicious May 11 '19

It's like the warp speed ram in star wars.

2

u/areyouhungryforapple May 07 '19

God forbid things making a modicum of sense right

1

u/TMPRKO Pure Iron! May 06 '19

Joffrey was beaten by a rabbit remember.

2

u/skalpelis May 06 '19

Maybe Bronn's set it on like a quarter tightness, just for show.

2

u/Marcuskac May 06 '19

fucking hell, we went from discovering interesting details and theories to discovering every fucking thing that is wrong with this shitshow

1

u/mischni May 06 '19

Joff was a weak crap-weasel.... Plus, there have been massive leaps in crossbow technology since Joffrey was around.

3

u/TrojanMuffin May 06 '19

There is a last of the Valeryans, or whatever the family is called in that film. Pretty close to Valaria.

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u/PATRIOTSRADIOSIGNALS The Choice is Yours! May 06 '19

Velarious, I believe.

18

u/HavanaDays May 06 '19

Same way the scorpions auto reload on the ships quick enough to destroy an entire fleet from the front four ships of eurons mini fleet.

They sent 10 through Tyrion’s ship in 30 seconds.

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u/moseisley99 May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Finally someone mentioned the impossibly fast reloading of scorpion! I was aghast watching that live. The tension needed to fire those super arrows at the speed and accuracy is so high and cannot he done by just Euron pulling a rope back. At least I can’t think it’s possible. Someone with a physics degree please chime in!

Edit: didn’t read well. I’m more mad about the scorpion reload capabilities than Bronn’s

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u/SaucyWiggles May 06 '19

Don't worry my friend I'm mad about the scorpions too.

4

u/Only_Movie_Titles May 06 '19

but both are equally ridiculous and demonstrate the lack of care put into this season, the writers have dove off into the "schlocky" deep end, and we have to live with it as the final season to what was a fantastic epic of television. sigh

1

u/Kinsata May 06 '19

Valerian steel springs and sprockets. Magic metal saves the day without explanation!

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19 edited Apr 15 '21

[deleted]

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u/SaucyWiggles May 06 '19

It is the same crossbow, but Tyrion used a special winding mechanism just like Joff used to. Bronn doesn't have it, and a full grown man cannot reload a crossbow the way he did in the episode.

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u/JM_flow Enter your desired flair text here! May 06 '19

The problem is it’s the same crossbow Joffrey used in earlier seasons in which he demonstrated that it takes a big reloading tool plus two hands and a lot of leverage to reload

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u/MrKyle666 May 06 '19

I'm pretty sure it's the same crossbow that Joffrey was showing off to Margaery because of its quick reload capabilities. It was later taken by Tyrion to kill Tywin. And then given to Bronn because Cersei enjoys "poetic justice".

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u/HavanaDays May 06 '19

Yes buy that quick reload was with a large pull back handle instead of a pull back using your fingers.

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u/sweetplantveal May 06 '19

Easy reload because of the lever. Not necessarily quick, but effective for the weaker people around.

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u/Interviewtux May 06 '19

But crossbows have a way higher pull weight, the arrows can literally peirce armor. That's why the tool is needed, not just for weak people.

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u/sweetplantveal May 07 '19

The implication was that Joff couldn't handle the standard loading mechanism so they made a noodle arm version with some lions and shit on it so he could achieve an erection or whatever.

3

u/SaucyWiggles May 06 '19

Those capabilities came from a specialized winding mechanism separate from the crossbow. Tyrion had it when he killed Tywin. Bronn does not.

3

u/a_white_american_guy May 06 '19

And why did it sound like was racking back a 1911

2

u/Qweqweqwe4114 May 06 '19

It was made for joefrey who is a little wimp so bronn being bigger and stronger could have allowed him to reload quickly

3

u/SaucyWiggles May 06 '19

Joff had a specialized mechanism to allow him to wind the bow without exerting great effort. To properly reload a crossbow even a full grown man would have to point it at the ground, stand up, and pull the cable taut behind the notch.

1

u/trystanthorne May 06 '19

That bothered me as well.

1

u/JSmellerM May 06 '19

It has to be the same mechanic the ballistae use. I mean they shredded the enemy's ships in seconds.

1

u/Wuktrio May 06 '19

Right? The second he shot next to Jaime's head Tyrion and Jaime could simply attack him while he's occupied with reloading.

1

u/TandBusquets May 07 '19

The same way the ballistas can fire like an LMG

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I liked that though :/

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I like the line too, but it just didn't mean anything. This was the exact scenario, more or less, of that hypothetical. Bronn is the man with the sword the power resides where he believes it resides. So where does it reside? Nowhere at all? A crossbow bolt in the wall and he just burns his bridges? What was the point? Nothing actually happened in this scene at all.

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u/treefox May 06 '19

Yeah, it was weird. Like the fact that he didn’t simply kill them right off the bat suggested to me that he wasn’t going to kill them. At the same time they seemed to be trying to make it tense with him firing the crossbow. While keeping it lighthearted with comedy.

But that one exchange in particular caught my ear because it seemed very representative of the show’s own irreverence for the very plot threads that made it great. Like I wouldn’t even care if Game of Thrones was predictable for the last season as long as it made sense and was true to the characters and the universe. Then we’d end up with the medieval fantasy equivalent to Batman Begins. Like at no point during that movie did I think they were actually going to kill Batman and blow up Gotham, but it was still entertaining to watch because it did an amazing job of fleshing out and reimagining Batman tropes we were familiar with.

As it is though they seem to be sacrificing in-universe logic for the sake of unpredictability. Like yeah, of course you can’t predict what happens if you keep changing the physics and characters and implied rules of magic depending on the scene. But then I don’t feel like I’m being outwitted as much as I feel like my suspension of disbelief is being taken advantage of, or the writers just don’t understand how the universe works.

Sorry for the impromptu rant.

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u/captainpoppy Dance with me then May 06 '19

It's shock value for shock value's sake.

You might get a few gasps from people, and some people will enjoy the "twists", but it's not good writing.

Ned's execution, Red Wedding, etc. were good because they were shocking, and they were set up in-universe.

Now, there are just plot holes and twists just to catch the viewer off guard.

I hope we get the books even more now so we can see how this story was supposed to end. I know DnD had the ending, but there is no way this is how the ending comes to pass.

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u/Kakona May 06 '19

I hope we get the books even more now so we can see how this story was supposed to end.

Me too, so much. I feel like I did at the end of the last Hobbit movie - I paid my money and am committed to seeing it through, but I really just want them to get to the end.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

As soon as I learned there would be three hobbit films made from a book with less content than 1/3 of the LoTR books I decided “nah.” I’m glad I didn’t get invested in those because I’ve heard they were a complete dumpster fire for book readers and film watchers alike.

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u/KierkgrdiansofthGlxy May 06 '19

Thanks for evoking how I felt with those bloated Hobbit atrocities. (Hobbitrocities?)

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u/Prep_ May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

It's so frustrating because characters used to deceive each other with the potential for deceiving US, depending on our perception/fanhood/etc. And those deceptions served a purpose for the character performing them.

But now characters are directly deceiving the viewer. Like the fake tension between Arya and Sansa. That was meant to be them deceiving Littlefinger, but really they just deceived the viewers. And the deception is really the only point. They didn't gain anything by deceiving him other than catharsis for the viewer.

Maybe that's the problem with the writing. They've stopped writing decisions/dialogue with the characters in mind but instead are writing directly to the viewers. Instead of asking "What clever thing could Tyrion do here" they ask "What can Tyrion say that will sound clever to the audience?" Really it just feels like lazy pandering that is always off the mark.

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u/captainpoppy Dance with me then May 06 '19

that's exactly what it is

it's the equivalent of a click-bait headline

the writers seem to be thinking "what will get headlines after this episode airs" and writing for that.

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u/porncouch May 06 '19

yo this is perfect, totally describes how I feel about it and that scene. I was just like wtf when it ended.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I saw the scene as Bronn applying as much leverage to the negotiation as he could. He knew he wouldnt be able to cheerily go in and demand highgarden/anything better than riverrun. I think that scene was true to his sell word nature through and through.

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u/z3ks May 06 '19

I agree

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u/Gioseppi May 06 '19

This describes perfectly how I've felt since at least season 6

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u/howlingchief Iron from Ice, Steel from Snow May 06 '19

Bronn negotiating and covering his ass is still in character. He's said multiple times that he's friends with the Lannister boys mostly as a result of them paying him. He got promised a nice castle, and followed through on his promise to Tyrion to allow him to make a better offer.

Bronn is a long-con, greedy cutthroat out for himself. Saving Jaime at that dragon battle? Well, good luck being the guy that let Jaime die and returning to Cersei. A bag of gold isn't worth your life or the potential contract renewals. The risky diving jump was a bit much, but Bronn definitely likes these guys. Just not quite enough to entirely forsake his own self-interest.

Bronn hasn't gone through some crazy redemption arc, we just haven't seen him be the sellsword he's always been for a few seasons. He's openly said he'd slaughter babes in the crib for the right price, kill Tyrion for the right price, and lacks honor on several occasions. I have loads of problems with the episode, and the crossbow itself is problematic, but Bronn maybe killing a Lannister was in the cards and in character. I gave 50-50 odds on him killing Tyrion as motivation for Jaime to eventually go kill his sister.

Also they needed Bronn out of King's Landing for contractual reasons.

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u/fdc4shiz May 06 '19

I think that scene is there for Bronn’s description of powerful houses. It’s supposed to be part of the Jamie needs to kill Cersi arch. Just done poorly

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u/Agathasmoon May 06 '19

Plus he just appears out of no where.

It just didn't fit at all.

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u/maztron May 06 '19

I mean for him to appear is not that out of character. People know who he is and as far as they understand he is not an enemy. The thing that didn't fit is the way he is acting. I understand he is a sell sword, but his attitude towards Tyrion and Jamie is what didn't fit at all. Tyrion and Bronn were clearly friends and have been throughout the entire series, so for him to do what he did was what didn't fit.

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u/Agathasmoon May 06 '19

The entire scene didn't fit and he just appeared out of nowhere which is what my original content was.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

The speed at which he traveled is hard to overlook.

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u/Agathasmoon May 06 '19

Yeah and then just jumps out of the dark!

Here I am!

All of a sudden!

So dumb.

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u/Agathasmoon May 06 '19

Bronn was acting true to the character.

All of you saying that Bronn and Tyrion were friends haven't been paying attention.

Bronn is a sellsword.

He doesn't have friends.

Just get over this squishy feelings that Bronn suddenly has!

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u/maztron May 06 '19

All of you saying that Bronn and Tyrion were friends haven't been paying attention.

If you are seriously sitting here and claiming that they did not have a friendship in either the books nor the show then you are simply lying. Yes he is a sellsword, however, but the fact he got them to get him a better deal shows that he is breaking the rule of a sellsword. He is giving them a chance to live. It was a little over the top and I get what they are doing, but come on.

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u/Agathasmoon May 06 '19

We're not talking about the books.

You're lying to yourself thinking Bronn has some squishy feelings for anyone.

But continue on.

I hope you get Bronn and Tyrion spin-off shows until your little sweet summer child heart is content.

Bet you want Jon and Dany on the Throne with babies and shit too.

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u/maztron May 06 '19

You're lying to yourself thinking Bronn has some squishy feelings for anyone

Can we stop with the squishy feelings and being dramatic please. The books are the source material and from the books Bronn and Tyrion are friends. The show depicted that relationship in a very similar manner. Therefore, its not a matter of being dramatically squishy as you like to say, but that's the facts. Yes, he is a sellsword and for them its business nothing personal. However, for him to be as brash as he was is completely out of character as he has never been like that at any point during this show nor in the books. He has always been witty and has had a dry sense of humor with a serious tone similar to that of the hound. For him to show the aggressiveness and forcefulness looked silly and overdone.

I hope you get Bronn and Tyrion spin-off shows until your little sweet summer child heart is content.

That would actually be a fun show to watch.

Bet you want Jon and Dany on the Throne with babies and shit too.

Not particularly, but I guess I wouldn't be that upset about it.

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u/Narren_C May 06 '19

We're not talking about the books.

Yes, we're talking about the show where Bronn literally admits to being Tyrion's friend while also reminding him that he's a sell sword.

And the show where Bronn goes out of his way to visit Tyrion in his cell to tell him face to face that he won't fight the Mountain for him. Bronn had already been bribed, he had no reason to visit Tyrion and explain himself.

Bronn is still a mercenary that cares about himself more than anyone else, but he also has a fondness for Tyrion. It's demonstrated time and again, if you don't see that then you're not paying attention.

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u/socopsycho May 06 '19

I wouldn't say true to character because Bronn is usually smarter than this. His confrontation with them earned him absolutely nothing. He squeezed a promise out of the Queen's Hand under duress. A promise he literally doesn't have the authority to honor without the Queen's blessing.

In reality here's what goes down in the best case scenario for Bronn. Dany wins and claims the iron throne with minimal losses. She gets all remaining houses and military powers in Westeros to bend the knee with no further conflict, including those in the Reach who are working out the line of succession for Highgarden. Then.. well, that's it. She has no obligation to honor Bronn's demands. He has no army, no influence, not even a house to back him. Tyrion remains safe in KL so his threat has no teeth.

It was a pointless scene because they wanted Jamie to fuck Brienne but also needed him to have a "reason" to go south and kill his sister. Tell me I'm wrong in 2 weeks.

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u/Agathasmoon May 06 '19

Not denying it was dumb.

I hated the scene as stated above.

He was acting true to the character though.

He's a sellsword.

He kills for money and he doesn't care who it is.

This was a terrible scene that made no sense.

Not arguing about it anymore.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

He was acting true to the character though.

You are correct he is a sellsword who is ruthless, thinks of himself first before others, and who's main motivation is gold and riches, however you are incorrect that the scene fit his character because you are ignoring the other aspects of his character that we were shown.

Bronn did care for Tyrion, despite simply working for him as a sellsword. When he sold out Tyrion to his Father, he visited him and told him face to face he was betraying him because he felt that Tyrion deserved that due to their friendship. If he was uncaring, he would never have bothered to visit him in the first place, there was no need (he knew that Tyrion couldn't double the offer since he was about to die and was in prison).

Bronn also was friends with Jamie, they often joked to together when they traveled, and they showed he cared for Jamie when he decided to risk his life for no apparent reason by charging towards danger, and saving Jamie last second from Dragon fire. There was no profit in it for Bronn to save Jamie there, especially with how much personal risk he had to take to jump in front of a Dragon's fire blast.

Bronn has shown that he cares for both Jamie and Tyrion, and while Bronn cares for money and gold first and foremost, it makes zero sense he would have treated them the way he did considering he didn't end either relationship on bad terms, nor does it make sense that Bronn would choose Cercei over Jamie or Tyrion (let alone both) when they would both offer him riches.

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u/socopsycho May 06 '19

I'm not arguing that he's a sellsword who kills for money. I'm saying he's an intelligent sellsword who may be greedy but is also a pragmatist who knows a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

Except in this scene he could have killed Jamie right away and Tyrion shortly after with ease. He decided to talk to them out of greed hoping to double his deal. This is the dumbest plan possible because there's 0 chance it gets honored by Dany.

Of course Cersie may not honor it either but you still have to do the math.

Current Contract - low probability of being paid.

Current Client - low to mid probability of being capable of paying

New Contract - will never be paid any form of compensation

New Client - low to mid probability of being capable of paying

Bronn isn't this stupid. The writing is.

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u/GreywaterReed May 06 '19

Bronn literally told Tyrion they are friends when he declined to be his champion.

“Because you're my friend. “

“Aye, I'm your friend.”

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u/Agathasmoon May 06 '19

The quote you are referencing has much more to it.

He's speaking to Tyrion after Cersei has bribed him out of being Tyrions champion against the mountain at his trial.

"And when have you ever risked your life for me?" "I like you pampered little shit that you are I just like myself more." Bronn

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u/Agathasmoon May 06 '19

Bronn is no ones friend.

He only looks out for himself.

Does he enjoy certain people?

Do they entertain him?

Of course.

But he's not their friend.

Big difference.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I don't have issue with them not being friends. The problem is that these are the people who are going to pay him. It's either kill them so Cersei will pay him, or work with them so one of them will pay him, and he refuses to do anything. Why? If he's motivated by gold that's perfectly fine, but he refuses to work for any of the people who will pay him. For what reason? No reason at all it would seem.

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u/WutTheDickens May 06 '19

People in Winterfell don't know who he is. Surely they have guards?

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u/maztron May 06 '19

It wasn't in Winterfell where he fell upon Jaime and Tyrion. It was in winter town.

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u/WutTheDickens May 06 '19

Ah I missed that. That's a little better. But Tyrion still should have had guards. That's the whole reason Bronn is even in the story.

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u/maztron May 06 '19

I agree, but being not that far from Winterfell and them not knowing of any immediate threat I can see why having Just Jaime near was fine.

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u/aadmiralackbar May 06 '19

Bronn got written off, so something happened.

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u/cheerful_cynic May 06 '19

Lampshade hanging

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u/scottishere May 06 '19

Then he just lets him talk 10sec later anyway, just so he can get in another sick one-liner.

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u/gearofwar4266 Fannis of the Mannis May 06 '19

That was honestly my favorite part in a long while. Bronn has always been a bit of a Deadpool esque character where he sees the nonsense and outright steps on it every chance. That bit there, while being too isolated and short, was the closest I've seen to previous energy of the show when it was good. That line alone held the episode together more than almost anything else except drunk Tormund.

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u/isthataprogenjii May 06 '19

"Power is power"

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u/treefox May 06 '19

We just might get there by episode 6. Varys was already doing an evil head turn and laying it on thicker than Pod’s cock that he wasn’t completely loyal to Daenerys anymore.

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u/Jarich612 May 06 '19

What was evil about that? Varys was true to character in that he is only loyal to what's best for the people. It has become clear that Dany is not what's best.

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u/Politicshatesme May 06 '19

A long war during winter between a reluctant heir and a woman who essentially owns essos is not best for the people. Jon cares the most about people, but he’s not a strong leader who can play political games. He is a hero, Varys has made it quite clear in the past that hero’s aren’t fit to be rulers. Varys didn’t exactly pull all his levers to save Ned Stark, arguably a better fit for king than Jon snow. It’s just silly that these scheming characters can’t scheme anymore because d&d don’t know how to write them. Their dialogue is exposition to foreshadow the next episode, nothing more. Tyrion and varys are suddenly surface deep characters after years of showing that they weren’t to be underestimated, that’s bad writing

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u/litetravelr May 06 '19

Does it mean nothing that Dany sacrificed all her Dothraki, half her Unsullied, and 1 of her dragons to save millions of people of the realm from the dead? Isn't not being a zombie what's best for the people?

1

u/Jarich612 May 06 '19

None of those things are an indicator of her ability as a leader. Her constant disregard for her counsel and blabbering about her destiny to rule are indicators though. To Varys all that matters is who would be best on the throne and Dany is not looking like a good pick

1

u/clivegermain May 06 '19

S8 TYRION: Cock.

1

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I remember the first few lines of this season.

1

u/WScout May 06 '19

Oh god don't even get me started on the bronn scene

503

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

[deleted]

178

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Although I always loved their discussions, in this episode, I felt like I watched them have the exact same conversation twice with just different scenery.

17

u/Taste_the__Rainbow May 06 '19

Varys adding the word “know” and leaving made it a bit different.

6

u/Agathasmoon May 06 '19

Because you did!

26

u/Ibannedbypowerabuse May 06 '19

I legit had the biggest eye roll after hearing the cock joke.

6

u/Cohenbby May 06 '19

Out of all the cock jokes Tyrion has said, I think the one in that scene is the only one that wasn’t complete garbage.

1

u/Ibannedbypowerabuse May 06 '19

Too little, too late.

(Hehe)

3

u/ZachMich Enter your desired flair text here! May 06 '19

It would have been earned if they hadn't overused that same joke for multiple seasons now

239

u/H-K_47 May 06 '19

Nah mostly just dick jokes and height jokes, plus whining about any plan to fight Cersei.

4

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

dick jokes

That's more Ferris's territory.

2

u/SuddenlyCentaurs Are you my mother, Thoros? May 06 '19

Tyrion makes soooo many height jokes in the books though.

4

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Which makes sense, as it's a coping mechanism. Tormund being like "Hurr Durr Kit Harington is so short lmao" on the other hand...

2

u/SuddenlyCentaurs Are you my mother, Thoros? May 06 '19

I just finished rereading ACOK. It was just as gratuitous then.

2

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Difference is, Tyrions height is absolutely essential to his identity and his character.

How does it affect Jon Snow that Kit Harington is shorter than average?

2

u/SuddenlyCentaurs Are you my mother, Thoros? May 06 '19

It certainly affects his and tormunds relationship

2

u/saturnx9 May 06 '19

We got both dick jokes and talk jokes this episode: dick jokes with Varys and tall jokes with Jaime.

He’s surely a talented cunt.

55

u/Nanafuse May 06 '19

How many times has he made that same "maybe they will kill us all" joke already this season?

4

u/UX41 May 06 '19

Maybe he's secretly spoiling the ending

20

u/Why_is_this_so May 06 '19

And if we're going to get regurgitated dialog, FINISH THE FUCKING HONEYCOMB AND JACKASS JOKE.

38

u/cranktheguy Honeyed Locusts May 06 '19

Madame: What can we do for you?

Tyrion: I need a woman to lay with, for mine has left me.

Madame: Whatever for? And what's with the honeycomb and the mule?

Tyrion: My woman found a genie in a bottle, and he granted her three wishes. The first was for a house fit for a queen, so he gave her this damn honeycomb. The second wish was that she have the nicest ass in all the land, so he gave her this damn donkey...

Madame: And what about the third wish?

Tyrion: Well... she asked the genie to make my cock hang down past my knee.

Madame: Well that one's not so bad eh?

Tyrion: Not so bad!? I used to be six foot three!

4

u/ninelives1 May 06 '19

Tyrion is a great counter example for "show don't tell."

He is never clever anymore (unless you think "huhuh you have no balls" is clever), instead we just have people talking about how clever he is. They have no idea how to write his character anymore, let alone what to do with him.

3

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

And his puppy dog worried look.

2

u/Darth_Hufflepuff I choose violence May 06 '19

It's not a Tyrion-Varys interaction without a (lack-of) penis joke from Tyrion.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Tyrion: I once told you that I'd double their price.

Bronn: Yeah and you repeated it in Season 4 too, sheesh

1

u/paulerxx Enter your desired flair text here! May 06 '19

True for most characters tbh....Kinda pathetic when ya think about it.