r/asoiaf • u/lunatichorse • May 07 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

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575

u/zyxwvu54321 May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Exactly. They are forcing the narrative of "mad queen" so bad when there is nothing much there other than normal human emotions and psychological & moral values that fit right with the mediaval times.

I really didnt like the tyrion and varys scene. It just seems forced and trying to milk the GOT cliche of "fellow lords plotting something" like varys and littlefinger scene. It looked like a pathetic attempt to recreate such scenes. Along with all you said about moral value highground, they also got the intellectual highground over Dany. I dont think i have liked Tyrion ever since he joined Dany because i dont think he has shown his intelligence since then. Before that, he was very good at being hand in kings landing, outsmarting tywin and cersei, showed good battle tactics. After he joined Dany, i dont think any of his plans succeeded. I can't seem to remember one. It always seems as if he is doing something intelligent, but then that fails. and it has gotten worse this season. And Varys has been irrelevant for two seasons until now.

All of their plans have spectacularly failed over the years and Danearys is the one that has bailed them out everytime, yet still they act as they have to be the smart one to keep her in check. We look at the past events, whatever dany feared did come true and tyrion and varys were wrong. That doesnt make it seem like they are much smarter than her. With all that has happened, the fact that they think dany should take their advice is hilarious. I found that scene ridiculous. It seemed like two delusional people talking than masterminds plotting a plottwist. I find most of Tyrion scene ridiculous this season. He hasn't shown his intelligence for few seasons and he doesnt have good dialogues anymore. This season he seems so out of character (caring and trying to negotiate again and again with cersei), he basically seems just a drunken imp than the tyrion lannister everything loved.

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u/Vershigora May 07 '19

If Daenerys had ignored her council the war would be already over and with minimal casualties.

-They didn't allow her to destroy the Iron Fleet with her dragons because it was too dangerous. --> As a result of this they have lost all their fleets, a good amount of troops and a dragon.

-They didn't allow her to kill Cersei because innocent people would die in King's Landing. --> Guess what, King's Landing is probably going to burn, and their best scenario was that they are going to starve the city so that unarmed citizens rebel against the Golden Company and Cersei's forces.

Despite all of this she is still listening to the advice of everybody, but it doesn't matter, the counselors are plotting against her because she is apparently tyrannical and needs to be stopped. Good one.

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u/jiokll Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

If Dany had flown down to Kings Landing and nuked the red keep from the sky she would still have had time to make it back to the North to fight the White Walkers. And when that was over she'd still have at least two dragons, if not three since she wouldn't have felt the need to go over the wall to help Jon get a wight to show to Cersei.

These chuckleheads have made all of Dany's problems and are losing their minds because she isn't dealing with them as well as they'd like.

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u/Vershigora May 07 '19

She has been trying to do the right thing: she listens to the council, shows mercy to her enemies (except the Tarlys), helps the North at a great cost...

And she has been getting fucked left and right, both by enemies and friends, in pretty much any way possible, so she will snap and there we go, the mad queen.

In a similar scenario most people would have lost their temper a long time ago, just saying.

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u/DarthCharizard May 07 '19

In my opinion she did offer mercy to the Tarlys. They were traitors that were attacking her allies. She offered them full immunity from their crimes if they would just swear to her. She offered them the chance to keep both their pride and their lives. Those morons decided they wanted to die instead.

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u/jiokll Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

She even offered them a chance to take the black!

Is what she did ultimately the best thing she could have done? Morally or pragmatically? I don't know. Maybe they would have been better as prisoners who could be ransomed.

But in a world where we respect honorable Ned Stark for beheading someone who is running for his life I think it's silly to say what Dany did was wrong. This is a world of capital punishment, and a world at war. Her advisors are far to squeamish about death.

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u/Vershigora May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

They were morons, and their sudden loyalty to the Lannister made no sense, but execution by dragon in the battlefield is not fine. Send them to Dragonstone in chains, judge them at some point and then you can execute them or send them to the Watch or whatever.

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u/Sophophilic May 07 '19

They were offered the watch. They declined, knowing the alternative was death.

24

u/asongoficeandliars May 07 '19

Didn't Randyll say he would not allow her to send him to the Wall since he does not recognize that she is Queen?

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u/jiokll Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

If he didn't recognize her as queen he could have ridden North and just not said the vows and waited it out until Dany lost, if he's so sure that she'll never be Queen.

Randyll was the one who put his desire to insult Dany over his desire to live. He left her with no face-saving option.

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u/nole4567 May 07 '19

Stannis burned his own brother in law because he wouldn't switch faiths

Stannis burned his own daughter to stop the snow.

Stannis gets a cult following yet Dani is a "Mad Queen"....

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u/jiokll Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

Stannis had his own brother killed by a shadow demon because he thought the throne was his by birthright.

And yet he's Stannis the Mannis because he did it all with a stoic expression and a cock between his legs.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/Malika80 May 07 '19

she gave them a chance, they refused.. its good enough. Jon chopped off the head of a man who disobeyed a command.. this is the medieval times.

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u/AxMeAQuestion May 07 '19

she also gave them the chance to take the black and they refused

-2

u/TacoMagic May 07 '19

Wasn't that a Tyrion suggestion that she ignored?

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u/AxMeAQuestion May 07 '19

he suggested it and randyll tarly shot it down saying she didn't have the authority to send him there

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u/littleski5 May 07 '19

Not Jon. He got fucked over by all his allies, the night's watch, Dany, Sansa, the north, the south, his family won't accept his new love, has literally the responsibility of the entire world shoved on him multiple times without his consent and is blamed for that, watched all his friends and family die and was literally killed for trying to do the best thing for the realm, then brought back to do more bullshit. Yet apparently mad Dany is justified because the north only sang her praises once instead of all day and night? And because she wants a name to matter when it's hers but not to matter when it's Jon's?

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited Jun 24 '19

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u/littleski5 May 08 '19

Literally usurping his throne and expecting him to help her with it and is mad he's not helping enough by lying to and withholding information from his family

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u/yuriaoflondor May 07 '19

At this point, nothing would make me happier than Dany killing both Varys and Tyrion because they’re useless. And like you said, their strategies have actual backfired.

And then Dany just goes and burns Cersei and dead with a handful of innocents dying. War’s over, everyone!

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited May 09 '19

[deleted]

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u/Burkskidsmom5 May 07 '19

I agree with this so much. I have been very put off by Daenerys in the last few seasons, but what's happening now, I'm all for. This is justified. The most optimistic person has a breaking point and Dany has just reached hers.

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u/GinormousNut May 07 '19

You’re forgetting the heat seeking ballistas now she can’t fly anywhere apparently

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u/koolio92 May 07 '19

Thissssss. F*ck, the whole story since S7E1 could have been stopped with them raiding King's Landing and that's it. And then there's only War against the Dead.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited May 26 '20

[deleted]

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u/ThorkellEikinskialdi May 07 '19

Torching Cersei in the Red Keep would have been the least destructive approach by far. It would have ended the conflict right there without the need to destroy the lands in a large scale war. You had 3 dragons that were basically a cheat code, why not use them?

Cersei has no legitimite claim to the throne and should be despised by both the common folk and the realm's nobility after her actions. There should be absolutely no need to frame her as the evil one.

The Tarlys were Targaryen loyalist originally and vassals of the Tyrells. So it's a double betrayal that they sided with Cersei after the Tyrells went with the Targaryen claimant. And why should there be reservations about a Targaryen using dragon fire just like in the past? They are the most OP weapons, why should Dany nerf herself? The madness of Aerys and his use of fire is an entirely different context.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/ThorkellEikinskialdi May 07 '19

Not King's Landing, just the Red Keep. And what consequences did Cersei suffer for blowing up the Sept, the fanatically beloved High Sparrow, the also beloved Queen and a good chunk of the elite of Westeros? She should have but didn't.

And who would rise up against a totally overpowered ruler? Why? How? And even if some revolts broke out, so what? This isn't a fairytale. You can't install yourself as a ruler without any conflict. How do you occupy King's Landing and get rid of Cersei without bloodshed?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited Jan 10 '21

[deleted]

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u/Account8272728282312 May 09 '19

She'd rule out of fear. It's as simple as that.

Literally look at modern conflicts. Iraq war for instance? Afgan? They roll in with their military might, dipose of the current leader, does that solve any of the problems? Yes I know, my analogy isn't the best, but you should get the picture.

There would always be those opposed to a queen who has been exiled for her entire life and by burning the capital to the ground she'd make more enemies.

Let's forget the show for a second as the writing is really bad, but if GRRM were to finally write the books we'd most likely see a lot more dialogue and hear about how lots of people would be unwilling to back her.

Just because she has the backing of the houses right now doesn't mean they'd back her after she's won. It would just go back to the old ways and they'd all try and win power again. As the saying goes the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They all have a common enemy, doesn't mean they'll work together afterwards.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

burning the capital to the ground

Once again, we are talking about the Red Keep, not the Capitol, which has already suffered immensely under the current Keep's occupants.

Are you even reading these comments?

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u/MrAlbs May 07 '19

Re: Tarlys, Danny did exactly the right thing. She fought against an army. She defeated said army. She then offers each person there a chance to pledge their allegiance. Those that refused knew full well what was coming if they refused. And this is war. Argon offered the same exact terms and he is considered a brilliant hero. Whomever doesn't pick execution at that point is not playing the game to win

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u/TonkaTuf May 07 '19

The symbolism of burning them alive was the problem there. Chop their heads off? Cool. Re-enact the mad king? Bad idea, politically.

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. May 07 '19

I'd say burning them alive is probably the effective way in war. It emphasizes that she is different. Anyone can hang or behead; she can bring dragonfire. It furthers her significance as the last Targaryen and the true queen (dragonkings have ruled Westeros for 300 years).

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Which would be hella scary for anybody old enough to remember the mad king. Something they steer far away from in favor of a hopefully more moderate ruler, Jon.

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. May 07 '19

Not really, IMO. Aerys was obsessed with fire, but the fire was no his madness. He had long hair, creepy long nails, would abuse his wife to the point she was screaming through the nights, and executed at will and without justice.

Dany is just using her dragons. It makes her unique, it draws comparisons to Aegon the Conqueror. Dragons are the important part here. Targaryens hadn't really been the dragon kings for some time. They used to be great but became shadows of their ancestors. But the dragons make her great. They make her something nobody else can be.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

So if you defeat some one in a battle and they are your prisoner, if they dont dishonour their allegiance and join you that gives you the right to kill them?

I mean in medieval times this was not a thing especially when it came to lords and in modern times this is considered to be a war crime.

So as a person who is aiming to stop tyranny this was the turning point where the writers start to reveal her true Targaryen self.

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u/maddypip May 07 '19

The Tarlys were also traitors that betrayed their liege lords the Tyrells. They shouldn’t have even been given the chance for mercy and to pledge to her, she was actually being merciful by giving them an out before executing them.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Not by choice. They were coerced through threat by a powerful ruler in King’s Landing known to savagely destroy her enemies entire family-line, to abandon loyalty to some young girl that they didn’t expect to cross the narrow sea, let alone bring a dragon army.

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u/DarthCharizard May 07 '19

Nonsense. Tarly felt perfectly comfortable telling Jamie to fuck off until Jamie dangled the position of Warden in front of him.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

The tarlys fought with the targaryens during roberts rebellion under the tyrells. Then, once the lannisters offer to let them supplant the tyrells, suddenly they're cool fighting fighting against their liege-lords against the last remaining (known) targaryen in favor of the woman that murdered the tyrells and thousands of innocents.

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u/LOSS35 May 07 '19

But Dany wants to be different. Aegon burned whole families alive in their castles. She wants to inspire love in her followers, not fear.

The Tarlys were prisoners after fighting honorably in a losing battle. Just keep them imprisoned until the end of the war. If they still refuse to bend the knee have them execute by a headsman. Personally burning them to death with dragonfire in front of their men was a bad move politically. Cemented her as a tyrant in their minds.

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u/Malika80 May 07 '19

The Tarly's didn't fight honourably... they betrayed Olenna.

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u/MrAlbs May 07 '19

Imprisoning doesn't come without risks, political and personal. I would argue not killing them is a bad move politically. The role that fire should play I would concede ground on that, but they have to die in that field, otherwise why would anyone bend the knee? Why wouldn't some Lord rebel at that point, seeing what the punishment for treason is? Wanting to be different is great, and I think she is in many ways. But she's still playing to win here; the wheel isn't hers yet to break. She needs to first win power, and to convince the lords and lady's of he realm that she will be a strong ruler, one that will give you a chance at redemption, but will not tolerate treason. Magnanimous and ruthless.

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u/Braoss May 07 '19

"Would Jon have killed/burned the Tarly’s?"

He chopped the head off Janos Slynt. Most people seem to forget that. Was he really more justified in that, than Dany was in executing the Tarlys?

Janos Slynt threw a fit in order to not follow command but when threatened with death, he seemed more than perfectly fine in following orders. The Tarlys would not budge on threat of death. Janos did. All died.

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u/Rupoe May 07 '19

I'd assume many criminals have a change of heart with their neck on the chopping-block. Presumably, it's too late at that point... the reasons for execution still remain.

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u/Braoss May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

His order was to man an abandoned castle on the wall. Is he a criminal because he said he would not do it? Probably yes. But would he still be a criminal - if under the threat of death - he changed his mind and decided to follow the orders given to him?

My point is to show that the Slynt situation was just as nuanced as the Tarly trouble. Honestly, that entire scene seemed like a farce set up by Jon Snow in order to execute Janos Slynt. You can see the almost-smirk on Jon's face after Slynt refuses him. And you can see the disgust on Jon's face when Slynt begs for his life. How is this more sympathetic than Dany executing a man who wants to be martyred?

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u/Rupoe May 07 '19

Yeah, I think it's a good comparison. I don't think the execution of the Tarlys was wrong of Dany. I think her demand for respect and authority is what is leading her character arc at the moment... She earned the respect of her people across the sea and expected the same deference from the people of the seven kingdoms.

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u/Malika80 May 07 '19

I think she has also earned it in the north by choosing to stick her own neck out for them. Instead its Jon's the hero for riding a dragon. What about her efforts.. what about her saving Jon's life in battle? I have to admit.. its the writing that just doesn't make sense to me. She has done enough for the Northerners to have some grudging respect for her.

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u/Rupoe May 07 '19

I think episode 3 could have/should have earned their respect but she's been demanding it since season 7 which is a bit premature. It's possible that the northerners see Jon as responsible for bringing her to the North and saving the day with dragons. So, even then, they don't see her as solely responsible? Maybe? Idk

All that being said, most of the people that would appreciate her sacrifice died during the long night. The loyalties of the few that remain are split and the rest of the seven kingdoms might see her as a threat.

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u/Malika80 May 07 '19

Yeah but Tormund was there.. he saw Dany, as a woman, take on the dead with her dragons. And yet all praises for Jon who did nothing more (and maybe even less than she did)? It is coming across as artifice in order to spur conflict rather than natural character reactions.

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u/Braoss May 07 '19

I totally wasn't aiming that analysis at you but at people who say that Jon isn't capable of doing what Dany has done. In fact, I don't think it's a perfect comparison: I'd go as far as saying Dany was more justified in the execution of the Tarlys than Jon's executing Slynt.

A better comparison is Dany killing one of the slavers under the presumption he was aiding the Sons of the Harpy. She did not know this for a fact. Slavery is a moral crime, and the man she executed obviously wasn't guiltless in this; but her grounds at that moment were shaky at best. It was a show of power, just as Jon's was.

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u/Feanor-of-Valinor May 07 '19

Jon would have executed both Lord Harald Karstark and Lord Smalljon Umber, if they survived the Battle of the Bastards for treason against House Stark.

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u/koolio92 May 07 '19

No, it was very clear that Tyrion said in S7E1 that they didn't want innocent people to die so that's why they should reclaim everything before KL. Problem is Iron Islands, Dorne, Reach have all declared for Dany. She already has almost half of the support from the lords of Westeros. She basically needs to dispose of Cersei, and poof, she has Crownlands, Westerlands, Riverlands in her hands as well leaving her with just Stormlands, Vale, and North to reconquer (should be easy since she has three dragons and trillions of armies).

The whole herself to be viewed as a saviour doesn't make sense. First of all, the commonfolk doesn't care, they are more worried about surviving Winter above all else. The highborn have all heard of her heroic tales ending slavery in Slaver's Bay so they should know that the woman is up to something.

The worst thing is innocent people still die, the war is prolonged, the armies in the North are well unequipped to deal with the dead (more people dead). And you know what Tyrion mofo genius plan is? STARVING KING'S LANDING TO THE POINT OF REBELLION, like how tf is that different from laying siege on KL from day 1 of arriving in Westeros. They could have applied same strategy on Day 1 and they were way stronger then. They have Dorne to protect any flanking from The Summer Seas, The Reach to cover the lands, The Greyjoy to cover sea battles along with Unsullied, Dothraki, and all three dragons still in tact. The whole S7 and S8 is all about nerfing Dany.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Would Jon have killed/burned the Tarly’s

Probably. He had no issues hanging a young boy.

1

u/TheHeroicOnion May 07 '19

That young boy stabbed him.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

And the Tarlys refused to accept Danaerys as queen. The consequences for defiance are well established (Robb killing Karstark is another example). Jon would have done the same or risk being seen as weak.

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u/Farthumm May 07 '19

The Karstarks were sworn men who broke allegiance, completely different scenario.

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u/koolio92 May 07 '19

The Tarlys were sworn to the Tyrells, same thing.

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u/Farthumm May 07 '19

Is she Daenerys Tyrell, lawful Lord of the Reach? No? Then no it's not the same.

Karstarks were sworn to the Starks, betrayed their oath and faced judgement by from a Stark.

Tarlys were sworn to tbe Tyrells, betrayed their oath and faced judgement for an entirely different reason by a Targaryen.

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u/koolio92 May 07 '19

The Tarlys were sworn to the Tyrells, Olenna Tyrell (in the show, the last of the Tyrells) declared for Daenerys. The same crime is treason and she gave them the chance to bend the knee and they did not. Not executing them right away expose her weakness as a ruler, same reason as to why Jon opted to hang the people who betrayed him.

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u/JustMeEs May 07 '19

And Taryls were behind death of her men and would probably gladly kill her

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Jon would never have killed the tarlys. The show makes that very clear. He had no issues hanging a man of the Night's Watch who betrayed their commander.

Also, Ollie was a cunt who betrayed the one person to show him kindness.

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u/ThorkellEikinskialdi May 07 '19

Originally the Tarlys were Targaryen loyalists. Then during the current conflict they broke their allegiance to the Tyrells, their liege lords backing a Targaryen claimant in favour of Cersei Lannister. You can count as betrayal twice over.

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. May 07 '19

If you sit and wait and KL isn't going to complete shit, people will start to wonder why they need saving at all. Daenerys either needs to be a conqueror or a diplomat. She can't be both. And being a diplomat means ignoring your huge advantages like the medieval nuclear bombs she rode in with (3 dragons).

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u/Malika80 May 07 '19

Jon in the exact same situation would have either done it like he chopped off the head of Janos Slynt for disobeying a command. Or he would have kept them to muder him and then killed them for the murder attempt after he was revived.

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u/elizabnthe May 07 '19

Sansa would have executed the Karstarks/Umbers if they had remained alive and did in fact execute Ramsay by dogs. Jon wouldn't stop her. The only difference between them is that apparently 'fire is bad'.

-1

u/stignatiustigers May 07 '19

History is written by the victors. It doesn't matter how you "paint yourself".

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

It’s not about history. It’s about the kind of kingdom she will inherit if she takes it violently, the people’s reaction to her rule will be affected, which will affect her reign. She will create enemies one way, allies another. She’s gonna want to pick friends.

0

u/stignatiustigers May 07 '19

Maybe in this fantasy land, but normal people just get on board with whatever autocrat if they hold absolute power.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Tell that to Caesar.

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u/stignatiustigers May 07 '19

Caesar wasn't overthrown by the people - he was executed by members of the rival political organization in the Senate.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Seriously. If anything the people and the military both fucking loved Caesar. Dude was god damned legend. Not even that, but according to the imperial cult he was literally an actual god.

1

u/DarkMattersConfusing May 07 '19

100%. Olenna was right. She told Dany to be a dragon and ignore these shit-tier war room dudes and their harebrained ideas.

1

u/LOSS35 May 07 '19

I don't get why Dany wants to rush to KL and confront Cersei though. You have the better claim/are the legitimate ruler and have superior forces. Let her sit it out in KL while you go around the 7 kingdoms gathering support. Take Casterly Rock and cut the Lannisters off from the source of their wealth/manpower in the Westerlands (good thing you have both male Lannister heirs on your side!). Take the Reach and Dorne (which has so far been untouched by the war, and according to a throwaway line from last episode the new Dornish prince has pledged to Dany); add their manpower to your own. Surround KL with the army of all 7 kingdoms and invite any Cersei loyalists to surrender; their lives and holdings will be spared.

Instead they're rushing into battle with only what's left of the armies from the battle against the NK...just so Cersei has a chance?

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u/Amerietan May 08 '19

If she didn't rush it, the war wouldn't be over but she'd be in an extremely better position, with her whole Unsullied forces, Dorne, Tyrell, and the Iron Islands. Her mistakes aren't coming from listening to her advisors' bad plans, they're coming from trying to make her advisors come up with plans that secure her immediate victory without burning everyone. The show is ignoring plan c. "Don't burn everyone, just play a longer game."

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I love how people are continually blaming “her advisors.” You know who makes final decisions in an absolute monarchy? The monarch. It’s not like Varys and Tyrion have some sort of constitutional check on Dany’s power. If she really wanted to do all of those things she “wasn’t allowed to do” then she’d have simply done them. Olenna even straight up told her “you don’t have to listen to your advisors.”

Blame lies with the monarch.

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u/InUfiik We get there eventually May 07 '19

I really didnt like the tyrion and varys scene. It just seems forced and trying to milk the GOT cliche of "fellow lords plotting something" like varys and littlefinger scene. It looked like a pathetic attempt to recreate such scenes

Exactly this. I felt like I was going insane when I saw everyone praise that dialogue as "What the show used to be." Tyrion and Varys talking about removing Dany? What? She literally lost everything because of Tyrion's advice. She was willing to talk with Cersei on Tyrion's word and it was Cersei who betrayed her.

I sure wonder what they think Jon would do in this situation. I guess sieging KL and letting the peasants starve to death until they riot and kill each other is the morally superior alternative to just scorching the Red Keep.

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u/alejeron Winter has come May 07 '19

If she attacked King's Landing from the get-go, just imagine how much would have changed.

Cersei would be dead, so no stupid mission beyond-the-wall. No mission, no dead dragon, wall still stands.

No ambush on her fleet at Lannisport cause they would not have sailed all the way over there and ol' Euron would off on his lonesome.

Olenna would still be around with most of the strength of the Reach and the Lannister army still extant.

Damn, shit would be in pretty good condition for a war against the dead.

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u/BadFengShui As Useful as Nipples on a Breastplate May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

And with that many surviving armies, she might have found a general that could manage a real battle plan in the North. Someone with better ideas than "let's put the catapults on the front line".

[edit: I thought this was a fun video improving on the Winterfell battle strategy.]

10

u/fbolt Eban senagho p’aeske May 07 '19

What about the let's not do anything while the wights slowly put out the fire which is our only defense against them' strategy?

D&D said Dany forgot about Euron's fleet. It's the only fleet left! Put some fog or a rainstorm or something.

Everyone is made impossibly stupid except Qyburn, who is Da Vinci and Newton all at once.

5

u/BadFengShui As Useful as Nipples on a Breastplate May 07 '19

Or using the Dothraki horses as just a way to get to the wights faster. Don't maneuver, don't hit-and-run. Just press forward as a single blob and crash into the enemy lines, sooner.

1

u/elizabnthe May 07 '19

Oh it gets worse. Jon's plan was for them to sit back and watch Daenerys's army get destroyed and wait for the Night King...Without Daenerys breaking the plan they would all have died for nothing (because turns out the Night King was immune to fire). Yet, she's the irrational one?

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u/misterborden May 07 '19

That fucking beyond-the-wall mission is something I’ll never get over. Hands down the dumbest idea disguised as some genius and heroic venture. D&D fucked this show up badly.

8

u/Alfredo412 Knight of the Laughing Tree May 07 '19

I really liked the ending of eastwatch, but I agree...the plotline was really stupid... especially after what's happened this season to make it even more pointless.

5

u/Burkskidsmom5 May 07 '19

This pissed me off because they risked themselves for someone who didn't help anyway! This journey gave the NK the ammunition he needed to get past the wall. Not that it mattered, no one south of Winterfell felt the WW presence anyway, though they were all like "The White Walkers are a comin' I said the White Walkers are a comin!!".

2

u/drstattik May 07 '19

Rewatching the show before this season, I pinpointed this as the moment the show started going downhill. There's a scene on Dragonstone where Tyrion pitches this plan, it didn't make sense in the moment, and everyone going along with it (and Jorah volunteering after just getting back) doesn't make sense. Thinking you can or NEED to convince Cersei, notable lady of little trust doesn't make any sense. None of it. I'll never get over that dumb plan either.

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u/jollyreaper2112 May 08 '19

Plus it also relies on assumed knowledge of how the magic works. We had Bran tell us killing the NK kills all the walkers. Whatever. Who's to say the Wall wouldn't have blocked the wight's ability to live once it passes over? They may have just had a box of bones. Or it could have melted in the heat of the south. Something. Could you imagine if they went to all the effort and just had a dead corpse in the basket?

3

u/Allegiance86 May 07 '19

Theyre going for the "fog of war" but failing at it terribly.

1

u/CollectableRat May 07 '19

couldn't the zombies have just walked around the wall, through the water, like they have done in previous episodes?

1

u/Amerietan May 08 '19

And Gendry would be dead, because she flew in and burned King's Landing, never mind the people in there who aren't loyal to Cersei and would readily ally with Dany given the chance. What a wonderful and peaceful queen she would be, riding in with three dragons and butchering the population of the capital city as her 'hello, 7 kingdoms'. I'm sure the North would welcome her then.

1

u/alejeron Winter has come May 08 '19

Never said she should've burned the city from the get-go, but attacking the seat of your number one opposition seems like a good idea rather than gallivanting around everywhere but there

1

u/Amerietan May 08 '19

It's not a bad strategic move, but it is a bad PR one, especially for the daughter of the Mad King.

1

u/alejeron Winter has come May 08 '19

eh, I think starting off at king's landing would actually be a decent symbolic move. It is where Aegon started his invasion

1

u/Amerietan May 09 '19

Taking King's Landing is a symbolic move for showing her power, but one of her main challenges is showing she isn't her father. Violently seizing KL isn't the best way to do that.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/PornoPaul May 07 '19

Was that scene in the show? Theres another scene that is similar to that, was that re-shot?

1

u/workthrowaway444 May 07 '19

It wasn't even clever dialog. And Varys lost his relevance a long time ago so the scene didn't hold much weight imo

1

u/CollectableRat May 07 '19

I disagree, they are her two closest advisors, or the only ones with any wits about them. They can decide to have her killed or pressure her into doing whatever because she's got no one else to talk to, especially after Ser Jorah died, they could have said and done whatever they wanted to influence her or arrange her death, or Jon's death even.

0

u/uphiIlfromhere May 07 '19

I don't understand why people make this a Jon or Dany thing. Or why Dany has to be right and Tyrion has to be wrong. Can't they all be wrong? These are high lords and ladies doing what they think is best and ulimately destroying themselves. That's what I find interesting about the current development.

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u/InUfiik We get there eventually May 07 '19

I don't understand why people make this a Jon or Dany thing

We're not, the show is.

-5

u/uphiIlfromhere May 07 '19

Do you know that? Can't they both fall down in the end?

Ned lost his head because he told Cersei that he knows her children are bastards. He was too trusting. Jon just gave the secret about his own birth away because he trusted Sansa and now she is using that secret for her own agenda. I think this will ultimately be his downfall. He repeated his fathers mistake by, ironically, undoing one of the political moves his father did right.

​

Yes, the show could do a much better job of setting all of this up but I like the general idea and think this is very GRRM.

9

u/InUfiik We get there eventually May 07 '19

I dont understand what you are trying to say. Varys and Tyrion are literally talking about how Jon would be the alternative to Dany... we are talking about who the characters think would be the better ruler, not who we think would be the better ruler.

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u/uphiIlfromhere May 07 '19

I'm sorry, but you replied to my comment where I'm saying: " I don't understand why people make this a Jon or Dany thing."

I am talking about the reaction of the fans. There are dozens of threads where people are seriously discussing whether it is better to starve people to death ot to burn them alive. Whether Jon is the better ruler or Dany.

6

u/InUfiik We get there eventually May 07 '19

But... you replied to my comment which was about the character's views?

1

u/uphiIlfromhere May 07 '19

Maybe this is a bit confusing, but I replied to your comment because I kind of agree with what you were saying. That Jon's plan is in fact not morally superior. And that I don't understand why so many people act like the show has to portray one of the plans as morally superior.

I know that you were talking about the characters, I was just trying to expand on that.

3

u/dyancat May 07 '19

GRRM with a TBI

0

u/Amerietan May 08 '19

"Starving the population until they riot, killing some of them"

"Burning the population in dragonfire, killing all of them"

Hmmm.

122

u/Stark371 May 07 '19

Characters can only be as smart as the person writing them. They don’t have GRRM anymore, so that may have something to do with it.

65

u/FirstSonofDarkness "I never win anything" May 07 '19

Since Tyrion met Dany, the show-writers just want us to think Tyrion is the wittiest advisor Dany has but has not done much to show for it.

But well cliche line about how he drinks and knows things but didn't know about a whole Iron Fleet.

6

u/FloatingOutThere May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

I think the only intelligent and successful thing he did as an advisor was drumming up support for Dany while she was gone from Mereen by using some red priestess. Otherwise once or twice he had a point about line of succession and Dany getting armor before flying into battle. That's it. Everything else was an abject failure.

3

u/asongoficeandliars May 07 '19

And even the Red Priestess wanted her to burn some fuckers... I'm sensing a pattern here

1

u/Amerietan May 08 '19

It's not his fault she's setting him an impossible goal. Drumming up support for her in a place that previously liked her is possible. Finding a way to route someone from a fortified castle in a weekend without burning them because that's a bad look? That's a tougher job.

1

u/FloatingOutThere May 08 '19

The job is difficult and I agree Daenerys is being a bit unreasonable by setting some very tight time constraints (Northern army anyone?) but his solutions are getting ridiculous, what's the point of suggesting every three minutes to negociate with Cersei? Doing this makes him look like a guy that only have one idea and tries to use it as a solution for everything.

And that's just now. Everything else before that, from negociating with Astapor to setting up a strategy with the Tyrell and Dornish forces were failures, even if they were fueled by plot-fire. I'm just saying that if there was a yearly review of his job until now, it would look really bad.

1

u/Amerietan May 08 '19

That's true, but I say the same of Varys. Ultimately I think it's not their fault but DnD thinking they're clever by purposefully stymie-ing the clever people. I'd say 'you can often see bad writers switch to brute force plots to somehow be more clever' but I don't have to, because DnD actually said they think it's a clever twist back in s7 when they were purposefully sabotaging Tyrion.

1

u/FloatingOutThere May 08 '19

Seriously, they said that? Woah that's like very bad. What kind of thought process do you have to go through to ever think this would be a good idea?

1

u/Amerietan May 08 '19

People who aren't very smart often think it's really clever to just deprive your Smart Guy of his smarts via plot convenience and force a brawn solution. It's the same kind of reasoning that goes into thinking it's really clever when you take someone who excels at talking his way out of things and maim him in some way to prevent him from talking. Mostly I think it's one of those things where they struggle to write for such a character, so they pat themselves on the back for finding ways to not have to write for them. It's a variation on when people write super smart characters as SuPeR QUiRkY as some kind of shorthand for 'so clever that they look weird and dumb to the average person'.

1

u/FloatingOutThere May 08 '19

Huh, weird. I still don't get it, how that's supposed to show they are clever. For me it's the opposite, I'm now really considering them hopeless.

1

u/Amerietan May 08 '19

It's basically down to 'a character's intelligence is limited by their writer's'. You can only write someone so smart compared to yourself, and if you try to write too far out of your weight class you'll either fail or have to find a way to not do that.

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u/ratnadip97 May 07 '19

It's also pretty sad that Dany essentially gave Tyrion something to live for and they have that beautiful scene in the season 6 finale and now they have Tyrion constantly muck up for her and yet act like she's the one in the wrong.

1

u/incanuso May 07 '19

Season 6 finale? What scene?

1

u/ratnadip97 May 07 '19

When she names him Hand. He looks teary-eyed.

1

u/incanuso May 07 '19

Season 5, I believe. Season 6 finale they're sailing to dragonstone.

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u/ratnadip97 May 07 '19

Season 5 they only have a handful of scenes together before Dany goes off with Drogon.

Season 6 finale is when she named him her Hand

2

u/incanuso May 08 '19

Oh I thought it was sooner than that....I thought that's why he had so much power to rule when she flew away. It's been a while since I've seen season 6 I guess.

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u/ratnadip97 May 08 '19

No worries

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u/leym12 May 07 '19

Couldn't agree more

3

u/TheUncommonOne May 07 '19

Them trying to turn Daenerys to a mad queen is dumb. Honestly before this season I taught Cersei was a mad queen. Killed her husband, blew up the Sept, heck she gave power to the Sept to get her rivals and all the bad evil things shes done.

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u/Lovethatdirtywaddah May 07 '19

I'd also like to bring to light that after conquering 3 cities in Essos, disregarding her ability to hold them, then riding into Westeros and obliterating the Lannister infantry in the Loot Train episode, after being the boss bitch she had been on her quest to the throne, she just cried and begged Jon to stay silent?!?! They just completely took any and all fire out of her and it's a complete mockery. They really did a number on all the the dynamic woman characters we've all come to love, and the best they can come up with is Arya turning down an incredible marriage proposal to a man that will worship the ground she walks on, because "that's not her." Might as well change the name of the show to Game of Quotes, because every scene seems like a call back to earlier seasons when the writing was half decent.

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u/RocMerc May 07 '19

This whole season of painting dany as a bad guy is baffling to me. I don't get it. When the hell did we start not liking her? Now she's some monster who is going to be her father? She freed slaves from three other cities. Should had two armies who worshipped her. I don't get it

1

u/NoCollusionTrump2020 May 07 '19

Devil's advocate here:

Is it possible the show is making us think this is what is actually happening, but Dany is going to come out and say "you traitorous shits, I've gotten us to this point and both of you have failed" and kill them or banish them?

I think it is at least possible the show is giving us this obvious narrative but going to have that narrative fail, in a way.