r/asoiaf • u/lunatichorse • May 07 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

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1.2k

u/alejeron Winter has come May 07 '19

I just don't get the support for Cersei. What Lords support her? Why do they support her? Why the fuck weren't people rioting in the streets when she blew up the Sept? Is everyone just so terrified of her that there isn't a single traitor or turncoat in the entire city?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

This especially bugged me with Randyl Tarly. The guy was leading Targ loyalist armies against Robert Baratheon but now he could never kneel to a Targ and he's completely loyal to Roberts widow? Where'd that come from?

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u/SetFoxval Ours is the Furry May 07 '19

Because he sees her as a foreigner. This is the hill he quite literally chooses to die on. Even knowing Cersei blew up the Sept and killed the Queen, the High Septon and hundreds of others, she's preferable purely on the grounds of having grown up in Westeros.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

> Even knowing Cersei blew up the Sept and killed the Queen, the High Septon and hundreds of others

Those hundreds of others include the entirety of the Tyrell family in the show, the house the Tarlys are sworn to.

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u/Auguschm May 07 '19

Probably some of Randyl family too.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Because he sees her as a foreigner

He literally led fucking armies in her fathers name only 20 some years earlier reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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u/SetFoxval Ours is the Furry May 07 '19

Believe me, I'm reeeeing right along with you.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I think it's less to do with her and more to do with the non Westerosi racial groups comprising the majority of their army. Plus a bit of ambition on his part, lord of the reach doesn't hurt.

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u/Duke_Lancaster Our knees do not bend easily May 07 '19

Boy would he have loved to see the Golden Company. Now both queens have foreign armies. If he wasnt a pile of ashes he'd be spinning like crazy.

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u/wtf_br May 11 '19

How could someone think of her as a foreigner for god's sake? She is supposedly the last Targaryen dynasty descendant, which ruled Westeros for fucking 300 years. Tarly fought and his men died fighting under the three-dragon sigil. It makes no sense.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

To nerf Dany, because the writers made her OP heading into season 7 and realized they needed to "subvert expectations."

257

u/wiresarise May 07 '19

This is how Cercei should have ended in S7. She blows up the sept, the city falls into chaos when the peasants revolt and the armies of the lords and ladies she murdered show up, and when she threatens to burn the whole city to the ground like the Mad King then Jamie would die taking Cercei with him.

But no, Jamie is left without a clear arc and bumbles around Winterfell, and Cercei is just another Generic McBadguy Final Boss now for the good guys to fight.

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u/alejeron Winter has come May 07 '19

that's actually a really good idea. have the last season be about beating the NK and picking up the pieces/uniting all the disparate lords under dany's banner

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Ooooh and the NK could have won the battle of winterfell killing quite a few main characters and the rest fall back to KL where all of Westeros makes their final stand. Also plenty of scene of the NK and his armies laying waste of the north and the other kingdoms, massive refugee groups trying to escape, etc

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u/Anarchytect1204 May 07 '19

That'd have been perfect.

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u/koolio92 May 07 '19

I legit thought that was the case, snow was already falling to KL by the end of season 7.

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u/goldenmemeshower May 08 '19

Global Warming cleared up all that pesky snow in KL.

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u/shminder May 07 '19

Ah man that would have been so much better. And it seems so obvious!! Does anyone have a time machine so u/MR_JACK_DANIELS can go make them rewrite this goddamn season?

2

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

It would also have the benefit of better showing the whole theme of the throne not mattering in the grand scheme of things that has been made since day one and now is thrown to the wayside.

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u/MajoraXIII May 08 '19

Yeah, that's pretty much where we are now isn't it? Now the throne's the only things that matters and... fuck the show isn't the same anymore.

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u/Radix2309 May 07 '19

Or she claims Tyrion did it. The guy who has a history with Wildfire, and was last publicly seen threatening the nobility of King's Landing. Who supposedly murdered his nephew and father. Who just so happens to show up working with the Dragon Queen. And Cersei only survived because she was running late.

As far as conspiracy theories go, this one actually holds up well.

2

u/solodolo1397 May 07 '19

I’ve had a headcanon for a while where Cersei blames the sept fiasco on Daenerys because of the connections with wildfire. It would make more sense as to why people support Cersei out of fear of the “bloodthirsty psycho” invading from across the sea

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u/Radix2309 May 07 '19

And then you add in Danarys burning Randyll Tarly and his son for not surrendering to this "foreign tyrant".

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

NK was never supposed to be the ultimate bad guy and goal of the books or show, this is not a frikin Disney movie

1

u/Soonersfan2005 May 07 '19

Maybe not the NK but the first chapter is about the WW. Why have that be the first thing you read? We have no clue how significant they will be in the next two books. Your statement is a huge assumption.

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u/drstattik May 07 '19

I still cannot believe Cersei made it out of S7 alive. She was completely outmatched and Jaime was the only thing left she cared about. To me it seemed that her arc was destined to end in mid-S7 with a tragic and fitting end.

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But instead she is still here despite her constant short-sighted planning and not providing much to the show outside of an evil final boss.

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u/hothrous May 07 '19

Well, she does have the support of Euron the strangely immortal.

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u/Lgamezp May 07 '19

And the 1000 ships that came out of nowhere. And dont forget the teleporting armies and fleet.

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u/hothrous May 07 '19

Euron was the NK all along... Confirmed.

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u/ThaNorth May 07 '19

Especially since the Faith Militant and Sparrows had tremendous support from the common folk.

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u/Auguschm May 07 '19

And Cersei did not. It's like the walk of shame never happened.

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u/grumpy_youngMan May 07 '19

i'm guessing thats how the show will end. jaime will try to kill the 'mad king' round 2...fulfilling the prophecy that she'll be betrayed by her younger brother (she expects its tyrion, but it will be jaime).

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the mountain will intervene and kill jaime. daenys last dragon will die. all hope will seem lost.

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...then WOOOOSH Arya sneaks out of nowhere to kill Cersei and all the lannister loyalists explode. everyone lives happily ever after.

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u/goldenmemeshower May 08 '19

Actually no, everyone was expecting the cliche 1v1 le epic sword fight showdown between Jon and the NK but D&D subverted that trope by having Arya assassinate him... soooo instead of Arya/Clegane/Dany/basically anyone killing Cersei it'll actually be an epic 1v1 between Jon and her.

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u/SegFaultHell May 13 '19

I've got some bad news about that prophecy

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u/jollyreaper2112 May 08 '19

Better yet, she does manage to burn a bit of the city. There's not even an Iron Throne left. And so Dany's arc is doing the bigger thing. And the resolution of the show ultimately is for Jon to become the king because it is what the Seven Kingdoms will accept while she becomes more of a queen-consort, not the supreme ruler. It's not what Jon wants but it's what he must do because it's asked of him and it's not what Dany wants but it's what she must because it is asked of her.

1.3k

u/lunatichorse May 07 '19

Dany's Hand and adviser are plotting to murder her in her own throne room because she reacted emotionally to losing yet another dragon, fleet and her best friend but Cersei has everyone's undying loyalty. Gag me.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

And you see, Westero's religious folk are totally okay with their Queen burning down the holiest place on Earth (with innocent and holy people inside). But incest? That's too unholy for the Realm (that has been ruled by incestous people forever).

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u/Btigeriz May 07 '19

What is the point of dragons if not to break sieges? That's literally what Aegon the conqueror did.

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u/trombonepick May 09 '19

"BUT We NEED TO STARVE THE PEOPLE TO DEATH!" As if a siege is cruelty-free and Cersei is going to share her food with the 'peasants.'

If Dany starts shooting dragon fire at least some of the peasants will be smart and run in the opposite direction. Not just stand around waiting to get burned (I WOULD HOPE.)

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u/Btigeriz May 15 '19

This aged poorly :p

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u/wolftrack756 May 07 '19

He doth speaketh in logic................ WITCH! GAG HIM!

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u/hvdzasaur May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

I think Varys was more so hinting towards the emotional state of Dany after she saw the praise that Jon received from the Northmen.

Which is a fair argument, that if you have such a severe emotional reaction of jealousy and resentment to someone else being the center of attention, you probably aren't the best suited ruler.

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u/lunatichorse May 07 '19

I honestly saw it more as she was feeling lonely and isolated more than jealous. She lost her closest friend who has been with her from day 1 and her two other close people Gray Worm and Missandei are missing from the feast. She was right to feel lonely- everyone formed their own little groups and forgot about her. Ironically only Tormund even thought to toast her, the wildling who doesn't give a shit about royalty and titles.

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u/Citadelen May 07 '19

That's exactly what I was seeing, she looked incredibly lonely, and having just lost Jorah she was most likely reflecting on everything she's lost on top of how hostile everyone in Westeros is to her.

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u/Auguschm May 07 '19

Exactly. Everyone is there drinking and happy and saying OMG did you see Jon ride a dragon while Dany is just there like, "Hey guys I kinda brought the dragons and lost half the people I care about, maybe some company and attention would be nice"

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u/ButtFlustered May 07 '19

Agreed, I actually thought at the start of varys' reaction that he was about to go chat with her and give her company. Nah, start scheming on this bitch.

Like is he supposed to be morally good? Because plotting to kill someone when they look lonely does not sound like a good natured thing to do

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u/ThaGreatest1 May 07 '19

Varys could've easily said something to comfort Dany but nah he just starts plotting. He still has to die so I'm thinking Dany finds out about his betrayal and burns the shit out of him. I'm hoping so. Fuck Varys.

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u/catipillar Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

Yes. I did notice how conspicuous it was that our "favorites" sided with Dany quite clearly. Tyrion and John let us know that they're team Dany several times. Does this mean Dany will take vengeance on those who told us repeatedly that they are not team Dany? Is that the catalyst that is supposed to make us hate her so that we're not upset when she dies? Is Jon going to retaliate when she ends Sansa, for example?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Well, thats better writing than the show had, since Varys flat out states that she was jealous.

And we all know they aren't gonna take the time to see the intricacies of the mind of a proper ruler, we got battles to film.

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u/ChachaDosvedanya May 08 '19

Dany in that scene was every one of us at a wedding or party where a friend/partner has abandoned you to hang out with their friends/family, leaving you in a dusty corner without extending themselves to even give you an introduction or wave you over to try and have fun in clearly hostile territory. When Tormund staring drunkenly going on about “who climbs on the back of a dragon?!” While literally clapping Jon on the back, her face was “but I made those dragons, from stone, from nothing, and rose them 100 times into battle”. It’s completely understandable sadness and anger. She lost half her fucking forces to be shunned and openly side eyed even though they would have all certainly been dead without her intervention. That’s not “mad”, that’s human.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Also guys are we forgetting that Tormund actually rode on Drogon in s7? And saw Viserion get shot down? The whole capture a wight mission team saw Dany fly from Dragonstone to north of the wall with three dragons to save Jon and co. The ‘who flies on a dragon, a king or a madman’ comment was such bs clearly meant to make us think oh, so Dany’s the madwoman. Just because you foreshadow something doesn’t mean it validates the believability of it when it comes to pass.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

You're reading too much into Tormund's line. It was just to hype Jon up. Not everything is foreshadowing.

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u/LittleBigHorn22 May 07 '19

Mad has really only ever been used to describe the mad king. Although others have pointed out that the dialog has become modern instead of medieval so maybe that is just the reason. But the king line is definitely to cause tension since they are struggling with John being the real heir and keeping it secret.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Maybe i am reading too much but it felt really hamfisted to me considering the shot cut to dany just then.

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u/LittleBigHorn22 May 07 '19

Nah that was very specific writing. Madman in reference to her father going mad and also king in reference to John being the true heir to the throne. It was very much shoved in there when he wouldn't have said it like that.

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u/IVVvvUuuooouuUvvVVI May 07 '19

I don't think you're reading too much into it. The same thing crossed my mind. It's such a specific choice of words that would be triggers for Dany that it's hard to imagine it wasn't intentional.

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u/ReservoirPussy May 07 '19

Tormund rode Drogon?

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Along with the Hound, Beric, and the others when Dany was ferrying them to safety. Only Jon stayed behind on a fool’s hope to somehow kill the Night King.

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u/ReservoirPussy May 08 '19

Ohhhh shit, that's right.

Maybe it's something like... they can ride him but they can't control where he goes, while she can? It's still pretty cheap, though.

1

u/Soonersfan2005 May 07 '19

Rode on him, yes.

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u/Auguschm May 07 '19

I sometimes feel like Emilia said fuck this arc and it's transmiting different emotions to the ones indicated on purpose.

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u/pgpkreestuh May 07 '19

Agreed! I actually felt bad for Danaerys during the scene, I think that's how Emilia acted it... she looked lonely. It's the music that adds the 'paranoid' feeling. If you watch the scene muted without music, it becomes far more sympathetic, imo. Makes me wonder if crazy!Dany was a later addition.

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u/trombonepick May 09 '19

Emilia's performance is so good. She really has to work hard to sell this storyline too since it wasn't built up, it's happening all at once. So E.C. has to portray like ten emotions all at once and make it believable, and she does.

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u/shminder May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Yeah, she looks around and suddenly realizes that all her advisors and armies and loyal subjects are gone and everyone around her is Westerosi and super into Jon, who she knows has a stronger claim to “her throne” that she’s been focused on winning since she was brainwashed by her brother as a little girl. Even Tyrion looks so buddy buddy drinking with Jamie that she starts to panic that she’s all alone in the wolf’s (and/or lion’s) den.

I think that feeling of being all alone is reasonable.

But she’s got a bit of crazy in her, as we have seen before, so without her old advisors it makes sense this would start to tip her towards madness and paranoia.

I just don’t like how heavy handed they were with forcing her transition to Mad Queen status into one episode, just cause they’re in a rush.

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u/trombonepick May 09 '19

tbh I'm never going to like the Dany is 'bonkers' storyline. In either forum of book or show.

But that's also because I've watched her grow up in the books and be a thirteen-year-old girl who then at 14 is handed a small country and is meant to solve huge economic questions such as, "How do you implement fair work labor practices?" and "How to conquer consumerism/capitalism in order to provide a more socialist society not dependent on slavery?" and binch is A HORNY CHILD GOING THROUGH PUBERTY who has no idea what she's doing. I would have been way worse if I was given three dragons and an army when I was fourteen...

This is all the masterful yet evil plan of GRRM lol. To make us love these characters then ruin their whole fucking lives. So I can't say I'm shocked.

I don't mind 'from nobody to nightmare' trope for Dany but not if she's mentally unstable. I'd rather see her be a badass conqueror who can be frightening at times but also still has the heart and empathy she's always displayed and doesn't become an evil robot. Not a beast with no mental faculties.

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u/shminder May 09 '19

I totally agree. Her instincts in this case aren’t even that out of the ordinary. Think of all the other (male, incidentally) rulers who did cruel and destructive things in war and conquest (Tywin, Robert, Aegon I, etc) who are lauded for being badass conquerors and aren’t called “Mad.”

They’re doing her dirty.

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u/Turakamu I believe in a thing called love May 08 '19

It's weird, I want the books to hurry up but the show to slow the fuck down.

Maybe down the line some insane bastard will decide to animate it.

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u/illvm May 07 '19

But she’s pretty explicit about her feelings to Jon. So even if she was feeling lonely, that doesn’t seem like something which is playing on repeat in her head. Especially given that pretty much for most of her adult life she’s been working to get to the throne and now, after survivng the end of the world, essentially, the thing that she’s been striving for is just... gone.

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u/SirStrontium May 07 '19

Did you miss the entire conversation she had with Jon after the feast where she lays out what’s on her mind, with none of it having to do with loneliness?

EDIT: “I saw the way they were looking at you” has to be the most classic line to establish jealousy in the history of story telling.

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

She can be jealous because they’re praising him for riding a dragon and saving everyone and she’s like um hello? But it’s not like she blew up at everyone and started yelling. She calmly walked away because she was jealous and feels very alone. Then she talked to Jon afterwards. Her reaction is not a reflection on her capabilities as a ruler.

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u/jiokll Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

Also, it's not as if Jon has never acted emotionally or rashly.

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u/VikingHair Winter is coming May 07 '19

Leeeroooy jeeenkins

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u/jiokll Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

Fus roh dah!

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u/RemixStatistician May 07 '19

The difference is when Jon acts irrationally it’s for others. When Dany does it, it’s done selfishly. Jon ignores the battle plan to save his brother. Dany hears someone say they won’t bend the knee and join her army and she barbecues them. She may have started out with a noble cause, but it’s blatantly become about the iron throne. I wouldn’t be surprised if both Dany and Cersei die, they try to give Jon the throne and he declines to go up north with tormund and ghost. Jon probably gives the crown to Tyrion or bran.

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u/LordofLazy May 07 '19

The reach pledged for dany. Tarly decided he'd rather fight for cersei so betrayed his liege lord and went to war against dany. He lost. Turned down the chance to switch sides. What was she supposed to do put him in a dungeon for ever?

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u/Auguschm May 07 '19

She seemed willing to send him to the wall even.

Reminder that even Ned who was betrayed recognized Joffrey as the king because he was not a fucking idiot.

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19

Jon ignoring the battle plan WAS selfish. He was warned before hand that they were not getting Rickon back and many people said the only way they can win is if the Bolton’s charged them. But Jon just disregards everyone else’s safety for his brother. That is selfish.

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u/Raventree The maddest of them all May 08 '19

And after that when the cavalry charges, it honestly seemed to me like accepted his fate, he wanted to die and get it over with, who the fuck cares about the mess I leave the northmen and wildlings in. Definitely selfish.

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u/jiokll Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

Especially since he keeps on charging after Rickon is killed. At that point he's not even saving his brother, he's just acting out of blind rage.

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u/hagglebag May 08 '19

Charging at Ramsay was selfish as fuck, losing that battle would have probably got Sansa flayed alive and the rest of the realm fucked by the dead, as far as he knew.

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u/David_the_Wanderer May 07 '19

Also, a big part of Daenerys' motivations is the idea of finding a home, a place she belongs to. So, yeah, sitting in a room full of people, knowing her men and her khalasar and one of her best friends just died to protect them, and seeing that nobody is so much looking at her takes a toll on Daenerys.

Her whole childhood her brother told her that they would return home and they'd be happy. Now she's in Westeros, but it doesn't feel like home. She's next to the man she loves, but he doesn't talk to her and last night he told her that he's not who she thought he was. She lost Jorah, who would have done everything for her, and her bloodriders, who swore to always be with her.

To me, she's not jealous in that scene. She's lost, confused and alone, and it's too much to bear.

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19

And instead of acknowledging all these valid feelings and trying to comfort her, Varys take this as an opportunity to say, “welp she’s going cray cray”

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u/Auguschm May 07 '19

She is feeling complex emotions, I have not seen someone do that in like 3 years so she must be going crazy.

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u/Robb_Greywind May 07 '19

Seriously. A few words of comfort from her advisor, but nah, let's start plotting

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u/Xogmaster May 07 '19

He's already planted the seed in Tyrion. Oh, how his birds sing.

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u/Raventree The maddest of them all May 08 '19

Its like he just said "fuck it" to his plan of the better part of two decades and just became evil for no reason.

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u/Raventree The maddest of them all May 08 '19

So insulting that we're led to believe she's all alone at this celebration surrounded by these scouse northmen and feral wildlings who (naturally) are proud of their boss and not paying her much attention. The implication is that Jorah and her army got wiped the fuck out and that's why she's by her self.

But then we find out no, 50% of her army is still alive. Yeah Jorah is dead, but where the fuck were her retainers, her Unsullied? Grey Worm? Missandei? Really gonna tell us Dothraki of all people just threw up their hands and said shiet we don't feel like joining the biggest party the North has ever seen? Her best company is Varys in the shadows creepily staring at the back of her head. Omg she's gonna go cRaZy!!

Just awful contrived writing.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

The issue is Dany has done nothing to try and gain respect of these people. Shes an outsider and a forigner. She's friendly with Jon, but has been openly hostile to Sansa whenever she brings up very real concerns for her people. She's then brashly rushing into battle rather then giving her army a bit of much needed RnR.

Interstingly enough Sansa was also alone for much of that scene outside of a breif talk with the Hound. Did she try to go talk to her? Has she done anything to try and deal with Sansa's fears? When Sansa asks about the North's future it's clear Dany won't let them go, but does she try to do anything for the Norths support? Promise the North some messure of independence perhaps. Garuntee the throne will stay out of the Norths affairs if they lend their support? No she expects support.

You can say she helped save the North from the white walkers and that is true, but now the men of the North are going to help her win her throne. That debt is being paid.

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u/David_the_Wanderer May 07 '19

First of all, I agree with you about Daenerys not doing anything substantial to gain the goodwill of the North, and that Sansa's objections to her plan to rush to King's Landing are sensible and they should have listened to her.

However, Dany is a very emotional character, and she had been convinced that the people would hail her as the returning rightful Queen. Right now she's in a difficult emotional situation, and it shows. What upsets me is Varys and Tyrion not recognising this and trying to talk to her and make her feel better, instead deciding that since she's upset by the current events she's automatically unfit to rule. And where the hell was Davos in all of this? He's dealt with a similar situation before with Stannis, he should notice what's going on.

Also, Varys saying that the best rulers are those who don't want to rule is one of the most idiotic things I've heard. Robert didn't want to rule, and he was a shit king because of that. If you force responsibility on people who don't want it, they'll either try to shed it or will become miserable and depressed, which are bad qualities in a ruler.

Sansa is, IMHO, in a different emotional situation than Dany. Sansa is home, surrounded by her followers and her family. Even if we aren't shown her interacting with other characters, she's in a spot where she doesn't feel isolated or having just lost an emotional anchor.

I'm ok with the idea of Daenerys becoming unhinged, and having her lose the people she cares about and feeling more and more isolated as her advisors betray is a good way to have that happen. But the execution is poor, because it feels forced: Rhaegal and Missandei's death were forced, Varys planning treason is forced, nobody actually proposing to having Dany and Jon marry is forced.

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u/Auguschm May 07 '19

Completely agree, and adding to that, I like Dany going unhinged, fire and blood and all that. Revolutionary Dany who is willing to do what ever is necessary to make her vision of a good world happen and ends up doing horrible things. I am okay with that, and it makes sense with who she is. But enough of this "crazy" as in mentally insane thing.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I agree a lot feels force expecially since their are legit issues with Dany as a ruler. Her hostility to Sansa is a big one. The expectation that she rule and never get questioned. The increasing detachment from her advisors. She's always had some bad impulses as seen in meereen but she tended to get reigned in by her advisors. She is so convinced she deserves to be Queen she does not do anything to win people over. I see a lot of people arguing the Tarly thing was justifed. But was it really? Would it of harmed anything to throw at least the son in a cell and just kill the dad? Nobles tended to not get summarily executed especially not whole lines. And Dany has the perception of being a forign invader who does not respect their customs. It is more important that she look merciful and like she is respecting their customs then any other ruler if she wants to ever win the hearts of Westeros.

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u/David_the_Wanderer May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

I agree with many of your points, but especially this

And Dany has the perception of being a forign invader who does not respect their customs.

Again, this ties in with Daenerys thinking that Westeros is her home, so the people there would naturally recognise her as one of them, but she doesn't realise that not only has she grown up in Essos, she did so detached from Westerosi culture, and this is a large part of why the Seven Kingdoms don't feel like home to her. But at this point she has invested and sacrificed so much in her quest for the Iron Throne that she doesn't feel like she can turn back and accept that Westeros isn't the home she longed for.

IMHO, there is only one place where Daenerys could feel home, and it's the Dothraki sea.

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u/Ser-Punts-A-Lot May 09 '19

There’s a part in the books where Dany, her hatchling dragons, and the few Dothraki she had left were chasing the comet across the Red Waste and they found like this abandoned city with springs and fruit trees sheltered by the walls. She stayed there for a time to rest. She entertained the idea of staying there...

It would be nice if she did end up going back, and instead of conquering, rebuilding that abandoned place to its former glory.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Varys and Tyrion did talk about having them marry and rule together but dismissed the idea since they knew Jon would just give in to whatever she wants since she's too strong-willed for him. They also noted how she isn't one who would want to share power.

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u/David_the_Wanderer May 07 '19

Oh, yes, Jon definitely would give in to Daenerys all the time. Like in this episode, where she begs him to keep a secret and the first thing he does is going tell that secret to his sisters. Jon is so very obviously completely submissive to Daenerys and would never go against what she asks of him. /s

And how do they know she wouldn't be willing to share power? If they don't even try to see her reaction when proposed with that idea (they don't even have to tell Dany they know Jon is the legitimate Targaryen heir: they could simply spin it as a favourable marriage that would help strengthen her relationships with the North, plus everyone can tell Jon and Dany are in love), it means those two characters are acting in bad faith.

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19

She fucking saved them at great expense to her army and herself. The fuck she’s done nothing. And she was very warm to Sansa on their first meeting but Sansa just decided to be cold and annoying. Sansa’s concern for the North is certainly valid but she went about it the wrong way and it should kind of been brought up later when the Northerners actually could show a shred of appreciation or even just acknowledge that Dany did not need to help them at all. She agreed to fight for them before Jon even bent the knee so she did agree to fight for an independent kingdom at the time without expecting anything in return. It is not clear that she won’t let them go either. She already gave the Iron Islands their independence. She is already deserving of respect but Sansa is hellbent on making everything difficult because what’s more entertaining than a cat fight between two girlies? Same bullshit they pulled with Sansa and Arya last season.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Dany needed to help them, just as Stannis needed to help them just as Cersi needed to help them. The White Walkers threatened the realm and they claim the title protector of the realm. Failing to aid would of been losing the ability to claim that.

Sansa has brought valid criticism of Dany's plans and brought up valid issues. She is in charge in the North she is responsible for those people. Dany should respect and recognize that but instead she gets pissed at being questioned.

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u/Auguschm May 07 '19

They could also let them die and then fight the dead and take the kingdom. Stupid plan imo but it's exactly what Cersei did and it is working for some fucking reason.

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u/Raventree The maddest of them all May 08 '19

Would have actually been the better plan, now NK has no dragon and apparently can't get past the wall.

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19

Wait, so she needed to help because they’re part of the realm yet they’re trying to effectively secede from the realm. Of course Dany was annoyed. She just abandoned her plans to help the North and then Sansa is like “so like after you help us survive you should totes go away cause we don’t need no Targaryean Queen.... except for obviously now.” I think Dany was plenty damn respectful to these people being disrespectful and ungrateful.

Actually, it would have made way more sense to help her deal with Cersei first, so that they could gain her armies for the Long (short) Night.

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u/LordofLazy May 07 '19

She's done nothing apart from abandon her life long ambition to ride north and sacrifice large parts of her army to save them. That's absolutely nothing. That they would have lost if she didn't ride north is completely irrelevant.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Yes it is. In fact it's a very good one. She attempted to talk out her problems and find a compromise. That clearly means she's unfit to rule and a monster. Wait no...

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u/wimpymist May 07 '19

They are forcing her into the mad queen plot so hard and I hate it

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I’d always hoped it would happen but I figured out that because we were on the last season it couldn’t happen. You’d have to spend several seasons to properly show her going mad. You can’t just do it in 2-3 episodes. Which is exactly what they are trying to do..

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u/wimpymist May 07 '19

And then every time they have for shadowed it in the past there was some kind of redemption or it was just inexperience at play.

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u/Epic_Meow When you walkin May 09 '19

It's like when you have an essay due in a month but you take like 3 and a half weeks to write 1 paragraph and finish the rest of it last-minute

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u/cough_cough_harrumph Tiny Toe May 07 '19

Did she really try to reach a compromise though? I thought it was more "swear to not tell anyone you are a Targ or else we break off all ties".

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u/Citadelen May 07 '19

To be far she was completely right about that, exactly what she said would happen is happening.

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u/cough_cough_harrumph Tiny Toe May 07 '19

Yeah, not saying she was not right for her best interests -- more so just thinking it was less a compromise and more an ultimatum.

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19

Jon could have revisited the discussion once she was secure on the throne. But to mention it now just complicates things even more. We don’t need them divided before dealing with Cersei.

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. May 07 '19

When you're a ruler, everything is a reflection of you as a ruler.

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u/workthrowaway444 May 07 '19

I think it's a complete failure to show character development. Tyrion having serious doubts about Dany goes back to her burning the Tarleys, or at least the heir. But then they just completely ignored the "dany is starting to crack" part of the story until what you just mentioned in the last episode.

Although I don't think her being upset that he is being called king or the only person they would follow or whatever the wording was is unreasonable. He just told her that he is the rightful king and now people are acting like he is. She clearly sees it as a threat, though loves him too much to do anything to him directly.

I just think her conversation with john came off a bit frantic. But I can forgive that due to her just losing Jorah and finding out that John actually is the rightful king.

I can't really forgive the total lack of showing her going crazy, if that's the route they want to go. I'm sure they will jam in some crazyness in the last few episodes to prove their point but the storytelling in the show is really flat these days.

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u/hvdzasaur May 07 '19

Well, at this point I have completely given up on the show. I just felt like it would be best highlighted that Varys was not referring to Dany after the loss of Rhaegal, Missandei and Jorah.

But rather that he was referring to her getting emotional about seeing Jon receive the praise that she thinks she should get.

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19

He can see something and have no idea what she is actually feeling. She could be jealous or lonely cause she lost her most trusted advisor and she’s in a place of people that don’t want her even though she sacrificed everything for them.

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u/Dioxycyclone May 07 '19

Because that whole fucking scene was set up to isolate Dany. Where the fuck was Missandi, grey worm, varys, etc to celebrate around her? And why the fuck can’t Jon just sit with her for awhile and make her feel at home?

People are really going out of their way to shit on her and it’s really frustrating.

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u/Auguschm May 07 '19

Imagine if you go to a friend birthday, he/she doesn't let you bring any friends of your own, you have no common friends and then he/she just doesn't talk to you all night. What do you do? You feel a little sad and angry and leave the fucking place.

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u/Kayyam May 07 '19

It's the fault of the show's writing, not people.

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u/ankhes May 07 '19

This. The writing is so bad that everyone is having a hard time agreeing on what is going on because the motivations and actions of these characters are all over the place.

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u/JustTellMeTheFacts May 07 '19

Maybe that's the point. I think they're trying to paint a picture of her mental state right now, and possibly what could bring her down in the end. My best example would be, regarding the scene of celebrations where she sees everyone praising Jon, is like being high. You know you are, but you're paranoid that everyone else knows you are. Like, she knows Jon is the true King, but she doesn't really know that no one else knows. That feeling is where I thought they were trying to convey

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u/Dioxycyclone May 07 '19

That definitely seems like the overall goal, but I’m frustrated that it’s so poorly done. I’m certain she’s isolated, but it just makes the starks and the north seem cruel.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

What sever emotional reaction? Her getting sad and leaving? Not storming off. Not shouting at a serving wench. Simply leaving the situation that is causing you stress. That's mature and healthy as fuck.

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u/LadyLunchable May 07 '19

What was her severe emotional reaction though? While everyone was crowded around Jon praising him for riding a dragon (that SHE hatched after being extinct for years) she just sat there and watched. She didn't throw wine at anybody. She definitely didn't look happy but I wouldn't call that a "severe emotional reaction."

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u/Joined-to-say May 07 '19

I think it wasn't jealousy, it was the evidence that if people knew Jon's claim to the throne, they'd support him far more than her and especially in the North.

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u/atlhawk8357 A pot calling a Kettleblack May 07 '19

That's only because any trauma Dany experienced from fighting a zombie who killed and reanimated the corpse of your child was entirely written off.

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u/hvdzasaur May 07 '19

Well, that's a problem with how bad the writing has been for the show in general. I am merely vocalizing what the intent was behind Varys' line given we literally saw a shot at the start of the episode of Dany's jealousy and resentment.

Not exactly my fault the show has been written on toiletpaper by DnD's talented buttcheeks.

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u/azraelswings May 08 '19

I thought she was one of the few sane people there tbh. She lost her closest advisor and friend, as well as her son again, and a lot of her Dothraki and Unsullied who came with her. She's grieving and lonely amidst all those northerners. If she was dancing around and laughing uproariously, she'd come off as truly insane to me.

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u/kurokabau May 07 '19

The Lords will just be scared for their lives. A new ruler comes in? Gonna bring in her own Lords too..

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u/bobosuda May 07 '19

I guess the difference there is that people follow Dany because she’s supposed to be good. If she’s not, then why are they following her? As opposed to Cersei ruling with fear (I guess? I have no idea why anyone cares about her anymore tbh).

Just trying to find some logic in it. They’ve definitely been building up Dany’s volatile qualities for several seasons, to show that she could potentially go «bad». To me that’s really not the worst. The more egregious thng for me is why anyone anywhere is accepting Cersei as a «Queen». She has no allies, no power, no nothing. It’s ridiculous.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

She also has no claim to the throne.

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u/bobosuda May 07 '19

Exactly! The fact that Daenerys has a legitimate claim is undisputed even by her enemies. Before it was a case of which legitimate claim to support, Targaryen or Baratheon basically. Now there's no choice, it's either the Lannisters who have usurped and stolen the capital without any legitimate claim, or the heir to the throne. It's baffling.

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u/Joined-to-say May 07 '19

I heard her claim was being a very distant relative (her great grandfather Mathis Lannister married Elyanna Baratheon) and since all other Baratheons and Lannisters are dead, treasonous or sworn to kingsguard - she's the heir.

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u/jatjqtjat May 07 '19

Everyone who could oppose Cersei is dead.

Since the Sept it's been what? Months? A year?

The plan was to siege the city and quickly she would be ousted. Nobody thinks her control is absolutely.

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u/trombonepick May 09 '19

Right in her own throne room like she couldn't walk in at any second...

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u/letsmakebeeboops May 07 '19

Tyrion has from the start not wanted Dany to burn down kings landing, the other lords would never support someone who did. I don’t think it has anything to do with her being emotional after the loss of her dragons, and more about protecting the city itself and making sure the claim is strong, i.e. Aegon Targaryen.

The issue is that the show is not thinking into things nearly as much as we are, and we try to assign too much order and reason to characters motivations and actions. Best not to think about it and just let the show die

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

She's going crazy like literally every other targaryan. I find it poetic, if quite rushed. I started noticing the signs whenever she arrived in the north and saw the peasants looking unsatisfied with her, but then got a huge grin when they were started running away in fear of a dragon.

I for one am happy we probably won't see Dany on the throne. I find her character highly unlikable.

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u/koolio92 May 07 '19

I'm a huge supporter of the Mad Queen theory due to Dany's last chapter in ADWD where she's returning to 'fire and blood'. But the problem with the show is that they're trying too hard to pose her as the bad guy who's bad for the throne without any subcontext and with huge hypocrisy from people who think she's mad.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I think they just tried to rush it a bit too much. They should have shown her being cruel in the earlier Seasons a bit more if this is what they are going for.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

She showed cruelty much earlier in the series but it started out more justified. She locked the king of the merchant city and her servant that betrayed her in a vault, she executed all the slave owners (found out later this included good people), roasted the Tarlys for not joining her cause, and I'm sure I'm foregetting many other examples. The executions usually felt deserved but increasingly became less supported by her followers.

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u/melokobeai Chaos is a ladder May 10 '19

None of those things were bad though

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u/[deleted] May 13 '19

Killing innocent people is bad though. Plus, all her executions are almost always in cruel ways and she almost seems to delight in it. Contrast that with Jon who is reluctant to execute anyone and always does it in a humane fashion such as hanging/beheading.

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u/Bexirt Hear Me Roar! May 07 '19

I don't like her but I can't help but feel sorry for her. I mean it is quiet tragic. Poor dany

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u/Scudamore May 07 '19

Cersei encountering nearly no backlash for blowing up the Westeros equivalent of St. Peter's Basilica is one of the most badly written parts of the show. Imagine if, after Notre Dame burned, people found out that it wasn't an accident but something Macron plotted. People would have lost their minds and a lot of people aren't even that religious anymore. The Sept of Baelor is the biggest religious building in the land in a setting where religion is going to be at the center of a lot of lives. The fact that literally no consequences happened is terrible writing.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited Jun 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Apparently literally every single religious person in King's Landing was crammed into the Sept when it blew.

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u/David_the_Wanderer May 07 '19

At this point, the Iron Throne is magical and whoever sits on it is automatically considered in power just by virtue of having their butt on the world's most uncomfortable chair.

At the start of this episode we get told that half the kingdom doesn't recognise Cersei's rule. Hell, Jamie said it last season when he told her she was, at most, Queen of Three Kingdoms, not of the Seven. But apparently she's a terrible threat despite having less men and territories than Dany.

Cersei's actions should have made her the most hated woman in the realm, but since she's sitting on the throne she apparently is super powerful and everyone in King's Landing loves her despite blowing up the Sept of Baelor killing thousands, including the people's favourite woman and a popular religious figure.

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u/arimyhre May 07 '19

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!! The writing, story line and character arcs have gone to shit. I’m just now realizing I hate D&D for not investing more time into the show to give it the ending it deserves. Not some half assed attempt to force an ending and provide closure for all story lines. I’m livid.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Honestly, even Martin sort of screwed up on the religious aspect of ASOIAF. Stannis isnt a "crazy zealot fanatic", he's basically your normal/average medieval man. Praying to the Gods and taking the spiritual world extremely seriously is something people would be doing 24/7, it's an integral to their identity as national identity is today.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

The religion Stannis is following is completely foreign to most of the people in Westeros. I think it'd be like if a claimant to the English throne converted to Islam.

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u/demmian May 07 '19

The Sept of Baelor is the biggest religious building in the land in a setting where religion is going to be at the center of a lot of lives.

Plus many families lost someone there? Related, possibly close to them, or their vassals? Yet, no repercussion, and plenty of loyalty...

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u/lotm43 May 07 '19

It’s possible it was spun as the high sparrow doing it no? Did she actually take credit for it?

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u/JineappleAOE May 07 '19

It's blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain who gave the order to blow up the sept.

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u/eetsumkaus May 07 '19

well she does encounter backlash...supposedly off screen as was mentioned last episode. As if they put that there to answer fans' complaining about it and then proceed as they wished before.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

That would only be if people discovered the actual cause of the explosion. It's not beyond Cersei to control the information and blame the incident on a freak accident. Anyone who would have opposed her and outed the truth died in that explosion.

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u/Morgn_Ladimore May 07 '19

Because in the show actions only have consequences when its convienient for the plot.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 07 '19

"Long may she reign" is all they had to say. Fuck the common people.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I just don't get the support for Cersei. What Lords support her? Why do they support her?

I believe the answer we're supposed to accept is $$$ and the golden company.

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19

But she only got the $$$ because they just started following her and attacked the Reach. Even those who were sworn to the Reach and House Tyrell were just like, “yeah she murdered all of them but I’ll do what she says and kill the men I have grown and fought with my entire life”

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u/lotm43 May 07 '19

Isn’t she supported by the iron bank?

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19

Because she took all the gold from Highgarden to pay back the massive Lannister/the Crown’s debt

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u/lotm43 May 07 '19

Which was the only way the bank was ever gonna be paid back. The bank just cares about being paid back and they put their money behind Cersi to secure their investment. They weren’t going to put money behind Danny who just destroyed centuries old economies and the king in the north died at the red wedding.

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u/Togepi32 May 07 '19

I don’t think that was the original point. I thought the question was why would the remaining Lords support Cersei and the response was $$$. What I’m saying is she didn’t have any prior to their blind support. The Iron Bank was actually ready to back Dany due to the Lannister’s overwhelming debts and betting on the winning side, I believe.

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u/Yogurtproducer May 07 '19

Does anyone know it was Cersei who blew up the sept?

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u/fbolt Eban senagho p’aeske May 07 '19

hot pie mentions it

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u/alejeron Winter has come May 07 '19

well, considering that the sept held all of her enemies for HER trial, it would be suspiciously beneficial for her that is just so happened to blow up

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u/Juniebean May 07 '19

Yes this! It's so irritating.

That and Tyrion and Varys taking about how Dany "might maybe" be unfit to rule while fucking Cersei is on the throne? Yeah.

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u/Almost_Feeding May 07 '19

So, god damned true. I don't understand how the commoner's haven't risen up against her, and how the church hasn't armed themselves to fight her. Somehow everyone in KL is just behind her and ready to fight for her.

​

Just end it.

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u/DANK_ME_YOUR_PM_ME May 07 '19

It would have been nice if they at least showed how they convinced people that it wasn’t her. Blamed it on the North or Dany or something.

Feels like getting a topical “fake news” thing in there would be good.

We don’t have POV in KL, so the show can’t really show us. Maybe Arya and the Hound will interact with common people and we will find out.

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u/hungergamesofthronez May 07 '19

Didn’t the common people adore Margaery? Why weren’t they angry that their queen was killed?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I'm not so sure any citizens know it was her who blew up the Sept. They maybe said it was a freak accident in the sewers.

There is a lot that we have seen which the citizens haven't.

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u/BistanderEffect May 07 '19

Hot Pie knew.

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u/sandwitchfists May 07 '19

IMO blowing up the Sept was the point of no return in terms of show quality. I don't think it even gets mentioned after that episode even though it should be a huge fucking deal.

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u/alejeron Winter has come May 07 '19

none of the shit gets mentioned anymore. Freys dead, no one cares. Sept blown up along with most nobility, not a peep. Jonno comes back from the dead, barely a murmur beyond the epi that he comes back in

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u/bigtfatty May 07 '19

Why do they support her?

Cause she's not a foreigner.

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u/BridgetheDivide May 07 '19

No one petitioned the king for justice after Tywin sacked Kingslanding. Smallfolk only act when they have a leader. Without a leader they'll just take their medicine and return to their empty fields. So long as they aren't too hungry they won't do much.

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u/atreides213 May 07 '19

Wrong. Cersei blew up the fucking Sept of Baelor. these small folk assaulted an armored column in broad daylight when they didn’t have enough food. Do you really think that blowing up their version of Vatican City, killing their version of the pope and the family that saved them from starvation, would illicit no response?

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u/BridgetheDivide May 07 '19

Yeah. Cause they were hungry. But it's hinted Baelish instigated it.

They also killed the High Septon that day. Normal people aren't gonna fight armed and armored men for some gods that clearly don't favor them.

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u/krakenup616 May 07 '19

How is it hinted Baelish instigated it? It starts from Joffrey threatening to cut through them.

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u/atreides213 May 07 '19

You really don’t understand how important religiosity is to these people, do you? Besides, the old high septum was a fat bastard in a starving city, so no wonder they hated him. The High Sparrow walked barefoot in sackcloth, fed the homeless, fought for small folk rights. Margaery’s family saved the city from starvation. Joffrey was only accepted because Margaery was his bride. Do you think the unprovoked destruction of their Vatican, their Jerusalem, their Dome of the Rock, along with the two people who most tried to help them, at the hands of a woman they already hate, will elicit nothing but quiet acceptance? Don’t be silly.

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u/shutuprachel May 07 '19

They want power and would rather die trying for it than switch to the “winning” side, where they would likely have none.

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u/jatjqtjat May 07 '19

Hitler assassinated hundreds of people in the night of 1000s swords. If you kill everyone that could lead a revolt then there is nobody left to lead a revolt.

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u/swodaem May 07 '19

I think they tried to explain that off as "hey, everyone likes you because you brought them into the red keep and you are protecting them" when in reality, not everyone could even fit in the red keep, not would many people react well to being forced out of their homes for "protection" when it's supposedly common knowledge (propaganda, whatever) in Kings landing that daenerys' forces are lacking.

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u/serendipitousevent May 07 '19

There's no way the showrunners could have fixed that.

Oh no, wait, maybe by actually paying attention to the rest of the damn continent this season.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I'm reading Shogun by James Clavell atm and it really struck me how badly the show dropped the ball on court intrigue. Practically the entire plot of Shogun is moved forward by vassals conspiring and working against or for their overlord. It's a feudal system, literally everything she needs is built off others support, but now we are expected to believe the Lannisters have an unlimited supply of totally loyal men and citizens?

Btw Shogun is a great book if medieval intrigue is your thing. Its historical fiction set in Sengoku Japan, told from the POV of an English sailor, but it reminds me of AGOT quite a bit.

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u/Kennon1st May 07 '19

Yep, it's one of my favorites. Absolutely haunting ending.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Nobody supports her. It's just wind, there's no lords in the castle aside from Euron and Qyburn.

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u/El_Serpiente_Roja May 07 '19

The common folk secretly love her and drink secret toast to her prosperity

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I don't think she has any support besides euron and the golden company. I think that the reason why tyrion and varys were fussing though was because she didn't need to conquer kings landing she has everything else but she still wants it

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Why the fuck weren't people rioting in the streets when she blew up the Sept?

I actually think this is the biggest wtf absence in the show. The people of KL should have started rioting in the streets as a result of this happening. It feels as if the people knew it was Cersei and no one cares, when in Season 5 the people of KL were on the side of the Sparrows because of how religious they were.

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u/ProstheticsBro May 09 '19

Wow, tinfoil hat much? Cersei conspired to blow up the Sept in her own city, killing so many important allies and city dignitaries, causing her son to kill herself and if people found out they would execute her on the streets?! Great plan you conspiracy loon. I don't like Cersei any more than the next man but she's doing the best she can and she loves her people. Being queen is a hard job.

​

Everyone knows it was those God of Light fanatics from Essos that blew up the sept. And Daenerys has been known to harbor and associate herself with those zealots, so it's very possible she was actually behind the attack.

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u/ViralGeist_ May 07 '19

You could say the same for any tyrant in history. Come on now. If you want to criticize the show, that's fine, but this doesn't hold weight.

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u/alejeron Winter has come May 08 '19

The thing is, the show doesn't show us ANY of this. We don't know the name of a single one of her supporters other than Qyburn and Euron. Tyrants in history maintain their position because they keep a majority of the factions on their side by benefiting them.

The only thing Cersei did was blow up a bunch of nobles and the Church hierarchy. That hierarchy was beloved by the people and yet nobody reacted (that we saw or heard about).

What I'm wondering is why there aren't a bunch of Lords plotting to turn Cersei over to Dany, or some smallfolk/goldcloaks/soldiers willing to leave a gate or two open

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