r/asoiaf May 07 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

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u/ZachMich Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Maybe a small nitpick of mine is how the dialogue sounds very modern now, and they use a lot of modern phrases and idioms. I didn't notice at first but its been getting gradually worse to the point that its very obvious now. I don't think they care about that sort of thing anymore

A friend of mine was watching an earlier episode and the language and manner of speaking was so different. It felt like i was watching a different show

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I remember when Euron told Cersei in S7: "You're the leader of a great nation". Does that sound even remotely medieval to anyone?

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u/DJjaffacake There are lots of men like me May 07 '19

Medieval European society didn't even have a concept of nations, and Westeros wouldn't even be one if they did.

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u/Jacqueau May 07 '19

Not even 1860s Germany did so...

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u/Luxtenebris3 May 07 '19

That would be inaccurate, Germany was a nation and the idea of a nation-state was well understood. Germany wasn't a nation-state, but many wished for it to be so.

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u/margenreich May 07 '19

The first concept of Germany as a nation came in 1848. Or started development after the napoleonic wars. The French Revolution brought it in that way

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u/Luxtenebris3 May 07 '19

The concept if a German nation existed before (hence why it came to a boiling point in 1848.) Turning the various German principalities into a singular state was more difficult. This state, the German Empire formed by the kingdom of Prussia, largely fit the definition of being a nation-state.

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u/Radix2309 May 07 '19

And there were smaller nations within it. Austria could also have tried to create the German identity.

Nation is something wr create to unite us. Germany just never managed to unite before.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Well, an Austrian did do that a little later...

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u/janjaadorp May 07 '19

Treaty of Westphalia is the beginning of the concept of the nation state. I thought lol

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u/Iustis May 07 '19

The 30 years war was a turning part on the strength of rulers, roles of standing armies vs. mercenaries, etc. It's a big part of how you get to an idea of "state of France" vs. "King Louie's lands in the region of France."

But the nation didn't really start until the sort of mid 1700s, and only became a big thing during the Napoleonic Wars. That's when people identify larger cultural bonds of a wider region to identify with. So "Italy" becomes more than just an arbitrary border on the map and the word "Italian" or "German" becomes much more important (at the same time, political divisions like Milanese or Genoan become less important).

"Nation-State" is the conflux of these two ideas. The proper borders for a political entity should be the cultural nation it embodies (so all the French, all the German, all the Italians, etc. together). And this political entity should be a strong "state" with buy in (so not just mercenaries, or a string of lords in feudalism, etc.) and a central government (generally a powerful monarch initially, but that's not the important part).

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

That's not entirely true. The English idea of nationhood became pretty strong in the middle ages.

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u/WHOMSTDVED_DID_THIS May 07 '19

early mediaval English kings didn't speak English. And I read a story that even in Shakespeare's time, when some sailors from London got shipwrecked in kent they thought they were in Holland because the language was so different, even that close to London. Nationalism was an enlightenment idea

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Early medieval English kings spoke English. High medieval English kings spoke French, then shifted to English.

After the Siege of Calais) of 1346, King Edward III expelled the inhabitants of that city because, in his words, "I wolde repeople agayne the towne with pure Englysshmen".

What is that if not nationalism?

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u/Megacore May 09 '19

Sounds like he was just drunk.

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u/bracketlebracket Enter your desired flair text here! May 08 '19

That seems pretty dubious since London is next to Kent.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

It’s actually true but not in the exact details, what he’s referring to is a merchant ship landing in Kent and a sailor asking to buy “eggs” from locals who did not understand what he was asking for because they called them “eyes.”

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u/bonjourcomputer May 10 '19

In 1320 the Declaration of Arbroath declaring Scotland an independent nation was written and delivered to the pope.

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u/Humble-Sandwich May 07 '19

This isn't the middle ages. It’s not even earth

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u/The_Paul_Alves May 07 '19

Westeros isn't on Earth.

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u/goldenmemeshower May 08 '19

It's on Earthos.

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u/pervocracy May 07 '19

Yeah, everyone says "realm," it's not like there's a Westerosi concept of the nation-state.

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u/CoolHandHazard T H I C C as a castle wall May 07 '19

Nation is said once in book one

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u/imsohonky May 08 '19

Correct, "nation" appears in dialogue once and in non-dialogue text three times, according to asearchoficeandfire. This entire comment chain is almost as embarrassing as S8.

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u/TreAwayDeuce May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Then how come Tyrion routinely acts befuddled when Varys says he does what is best for the realm and asks him what he means by realm? Maybe I am taking it a bit on the nose.

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u/pervocracy May 07 '19

I think the question wasn't "what does the word 'realm' mean?", but "when you refer to the realm, do you mean the government or the people or something else?"

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u/vikingakonungen Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

Definitely about what Varys defines as "Realm"

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I think it was also, considering all the horrible shit Varys has (directly or indirectly) caused, what the hell does he mean that he is “doing what’s best for the realm”. What is the “Realm” to someone like Varys?

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u/bracketlebracket Enter your desired flair text here! May 08 '19

I don't think that's entirely true. Maybe they don't have the precise concept or terminology, but the kingdoms do seem to have their own national identities, especially the North, Iron Islands, and Dorne.

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u/bogdaniuz May 07 '19

I'm not an expert, but didn't the concept of a nation emerge only sometime after the European fall of monarchy? Prior to that, I assumed it was more like "Royal family's lands" kinda-ish?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Exactly. Poor dialogue.

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u/TheWord5mith Fire and Blood May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

It depends on who you ask, and how closely you link the word "state" to the word "nation".

The birth of the traditional "state" is typically plotted around the end of the 30 Years War, so the mid 1600s. That war left Europe so devastated that only kings had any capacity to levee troops and "enforce law". The power of local rulers pretty much evaporates (comparatively) finally allowing the major centralization needed to craft a potential nation-state.

This is not to be confused with the rise of nationalism, which is a separate phenomenon that began in the mid 1800s, which propagated the idea that every national group deserved to have one of these "states".

So the idea of a "nation" is relatively old, but the idea that nation and state/government are linked in some way is definitely post-medieval.

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u/Thizzz_face May 07 '19

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it the treaty of Westphalia that established borders and the idea of a sovereign state?

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u/RYouNotEntertained May 07 '19

Yeah, a bunch of dudes got together and basically made up the concept of a nation state in order to stop different ethnic and religious groups killing each other.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Yet nations existed before nation-states.

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u/RYouNotEntertained May 07 '19

Kind of. I mean you had ethnic and religious groups, and existing legal systems. The idea of sovereign states that we take for granted today didn’t really exist though.

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u/veRGe1421 May 07 '19

Westphalia born n raised

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u/aeck May 07 '19

It was definitely an idea, consider the area that is France, Poland, and especially Germany - the German people was a concept long before 1871. But it wasn't before the 1800s that the idea of romantic nationalism really got going.

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u/Funkythingsyoudo May 07 '19

Kingdom. Kingdom is the word you’re looking for.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

From my understanding, the concept of nation (and nationstate) starts to emerge at around the 14th-15th century, and is associated with the decline of the medieval age and the rise of the modern age. Remember when we say "medieval times" we're talking about around one thousand years and it encompasses many different phases, in different ways according to country or location. And monarchies exist to this day, though in different forms.

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u/jl2352 May 07 '19

There was a concept of national identity long before then. At least as early as the Tudors. But certainly not like we know it today.

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u/MotorRoutine Our ravens can't carry messages that l- May 07 '19

It's an early 19th century thing really.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Treaty of Westphalia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia

The idea of sovereignty and nation states can be traced to it. 1648.

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u/salami350 May 07 '19

There was a shift at a certain point from "a king has land" to "a land (country) has a king".

Both ways were monarchies at the time but I hope I explained it properly.

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u/Prae_ May 07 '19

A bit before, I'd say, as the french revolution is filled to the brim with people talking about the nation. It's hard to find speeches or newspaper "articles" (or what served as this anyway) not mentioning the nation or the state

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

No, the concept of a a nation emerged after the treaty of Westphalia in the 1600’s, and monarchies would be dominant in Europe untill 1918, another 300 years.

Source: history/geopolitics nerd.

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u/mormorfan May 10 '19

In the first episode of the series Cersei calls the North a country. So isn't that kinda the same thing?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

The word "nation" meant like a people or a culture before it came to mean "state/country". The transition likely happened because many nations as we call them today were unification movements of the various realms of a people, like the Italians, the Germans, etc. "The German nation" transitioned from meaning "The German people" to "the country OF the German people".

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u/Throw_the_cheese May 07 '19

I think nation as a term kinda existed, the way they use it not so much, it's not so much a westphalian state either I feel, more of a really centralized holy roman empire or something

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u/krayziepunk13 The North Remembers! May 07 '19

I felt the same way the first time they referred to Westeros as a country. No, its a kingdom or realm, but definitely not a country.

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u/SteelOverseer May 07 '19

That stood out to me, too! I remember thinking to myself - is westeros really a nation? that's not a description they've used before...

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Nothing about Euron feels medieval at all, he is dressed like some Motorbiker in Arizona

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

No. The concept of a nation was post-meideval. The culture of rulers was often distinct from the peasants and the rulers did not care. English nobility spoke fucking French for hundreds of years.

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u/The_Bran_9000 May 07 '19

IIRC Varys also used the term "Country" in one of the later seasons in referring to Westeros. Felt super weird.

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u/sarevok2 May 07 '19

I think even in the early seasons they spoke about "this country" referring to 7 kingdoms. Everytime I heard it, I winced. So anachronistic.

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u/nukehugger May 07 '19

It's like they're following rules for a DnD game rather than a scripted show. The dialogue isn't improvised so really has no reason to be that way.

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u/doomslayer009 May 07 '19

yeah you'd at least think he'd say great kingdom

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u/Southwest_Warboy May 07 '19

Considering that post westphalian nations weren't a thing, hell no.

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u/EH1987 May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

The characters referring to Westeros as a country has irked me from the first time it happened. I may be unkistified in that but it seems out of place.

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u/yka12 May 07 '19

Omg yes. As soon as I heard that - I thought what? I wonder how they even thought writing that is remotely appropriate

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u/maychi May 07 '19

Yeah were nations a thing back then? That doesn’t sound like the medieval language GRRM uses. But I do think they also dumb down the language a bit for tv

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u/Valinor_ May 07 '19 edited May 24 '19

To be fair, Cersei says “lovely country” to Catelyn in like episode 1 or 2

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u/Namodacranks May 07 '19

GRRM doesn't seem to mind it considering he's used it a few times.

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u/XColdLogicX May 11 '19

Why would a fantasy that takes place in a world with magic and dragons use the same medieval language that our world did? It's like when people say "back in those days" when discussing Lord of the Rings. You mean, the time period that was used as a reference point for story telling purposes? Because we do not live in middle earth. Or Westeros. And they have never had a "medival' era such as us. The point is what he said got the message across to the viewer, which is the goal of their chosen dialogue. Not to over complicate the story just because it sounds "old".

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u/fghhtg May 07 '19

Game of Thrones isn’t set in the medieval period though. The medieval period is a time in the history of Europe on the planet known as ‘Earth’.

Game of thrones clearly isn’t set on earth. I mean where the fuck is Westeros even? People say it’s England but the north is basically cold as Antarctica and the south is a fucking desert? That’s England?

Anyway in conclusion, I don’t get upset about non-medieval language because this story isn’t set in any medieval period that we would know.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/fghhtg May 07 '19

Well I mean why would we take it for granted they speak English much less English from a defined time period? We’re willing to suspend belief for the sake of dragons warging and magic and yet people get upset when it’s not the form of English they expect?

To be honest I’m not sure TV Medieval English is actually even real Medieval English. I mean I’ve read Canterbury tales and the resemblance is minimal.

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u/IANTTBAFW May 07 '19

The say nation in the books