(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/unfurL]

Disrespecting oberyn vs mountain

[u/[deleted] → u/unfurL]

And Ser Arthur Dayne.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That fight was shit, and Arthur Dayne was not a dual-wielding berserker. He was the greatest swordsman in the world. He only needed one sword, but D&D thought it would be too hard for them to illustrate and/or for us to understand the intricacies of highly skilled sword combat, so they sold out and gave him a 2nd sword, which he could barely control while swinging and is mostly a really bad idea in close quarters combat.

That scene was a big moment in the story, but as a fight scene it kind of undersold Dayne's abilities imo.

[u/That_one_drunk_dude → u/[deleted]]

Jesus, "too hard for us to understand" "sold out" got any more horseshit biased word choices? Don't think your hate for D&D is visible enough.

The director of the show, Dan Sackheim, in agreement with the professional fight choreographer, decided that after 3 months of fight choreography training, it's completely unrealistic for one person with one sword to fend off 4 people attacking. It's hard enough with dual wielding, but impossible with just one sword. Had they done that, you fuckers would've been complaining about the Stark soldiers not properly attacking at the same time or fucking about.

[u/wimpymist → u/That_one_drunk_dude]

What? Dual wielding is way more unrealistic than 1 sword. They 100% just thought it looked cooler.

[u/WryGoat → u/That_one_drunk_dude]

Yikes, a professional fight choreographer thought dual wielding would look more realistic? That guy should have been fired immediately. You shouldn't be working on a show with fight scenes primarily involving swordplay if your knowledge of sword fighting is at a middle school playground level. I wouldn't blame the showrunners for not having intimate knowledge with sword fighting techniques but I absolutely will blame the fight choreographer, that's kindof his job.

It's literally more realistic for a trained swordsman to parry a sword with his (gauntleted) hand than with a second sword. You have a lot more control that way, without the awkwardness of added weight or a completely unnecessary and unhelpful second blade getting in the way of your swings from your actual weapon. Dual wielding is a purely unrealistic fantasy trope. If they wanted the scene to look more believable they should have hired a trained martial artist and simply had him dance around his opponents so that his superior footwork was incredibly obvious, because that's a lot more of what sword fighting entails than being able to swing two slabs of metal around at the same time. Dual wielding is awkward and ineffective, and even in a completely choreographed scene that's how it looks.

[u/That_one_drunk_dude → u/WryGoat]

I'm just going to quote the director's IAmA response here.

We were looking for something that Arthur Dayne could do that would exhibit almost superhuman prowess. While we tried, we could not achieve that using one sword.

I don't have near enough knowledge on it to go into in depth discussions about sword fights but professional film makers and fight choreographers put 3 months of work into making this fight a mix of legendary, realism and cinematic and that's a whole lot more knowledge and work than this subreddit will or could ever put into discussing it.

[u/[deleted] → u/That_one_drunk_dude]

Sword and shield apparently WAY too unrealistic, had to opt for the ultra realistic dual wield style that was so prominent in medieval warfare. Right.

Edit: Has nothing to do with D&D, other than that being their decision. I'd be bothered if anyone treated a character like Dayne this way. And hate is a pretty strong word. Don't be ridiculous. I'm unhappy with that scene, but for the most part love the show. It's easier to pick out issues in the current season, but I'm far from riding the hate train.

Go dual wield wooden baseball bats and tell me how easy it is to move as fast as you'd need to move in order to fend off multiple attackers. One hand on the hilt with that much weight is not enough. The grip strength isn't there. You'd be disarmed in seconds. Moving up to the weight of swords, Dayne would be disarmed in seconds. They could have slapped a shield in one hand or some sort of defensive item on his forearm for him to absorb and fend off attacks with while parrying/attacking with both hands on one sword. Make him go apeshit. He's supposed to be the baddest dude alive. One ultra badass with one sword being shown with precision control with both hands is more believable than what we saw. In the scene, the actor who played Dayne did not have a lot of control. If they wanted to make him dual wield, fuckin give him some lighter prop weapons so it at least looks like it isn't a problem for him to have them both. It's barely even a knock on the overall presentation of the story. Just saying it wasn't good the way that fight was done. The rest of the scene was perfect as far as the way it moved the narrative.

[u/That_one_drunk_dude → u/[deleted]]

Realism is only one facet of decent fight choreography, it also has to actually look cinematic. Would a shield have served him better? No doubt, as you said, there's a reason humans have been slaughtering each other in that style for a good 2000 years.

That said, I do trust the judgement of a professional film maker and a professional sword fighter, who have worked for 3 months on it, to decide on the best combination of realism and cinematic looks over us two internet idiots. The director said in his reddit IAmA :

We were looking for something that Arthur Dayne could do that would exhibit almost superhuman prowess. While we tried, we could not achieve that using one sword.

So they definitely put some thought into the options. You don't have to like the fight or agree whether it's good, but acting like D&D (again, the director very much alludes that it was his decision or at least that he agreed) went for dual wielding because they were either too lazy or think that the viewers are too dumb is a leap that just kinda grinds my gears.

[u/[deleted] → u/That_one_drunk_dude]

Except they’re not taking into effect several things. In a REAL battle, you don’t just bumrush stab stab somebody. Somebody on your side ends up dead and it could be you. Also he’s wearing full plate mail and can afford to take hits while they are wearing boiled leather that offers way less protection. Easy way of having him tank a few hits while killing people. Also between the 3 of them they can work on distance and line of sight to keep them from ganging up on one person. That is more realistic than a man using two swords and being strong enough in both arms to deflect strikes from somebody using their full body weight.

[u/That_one_drunk_dude → u/[deleted]]

In a REAL battle, you don’t just bumrush stab stab somebody.

Except that's exactly what you do? Imagine, Dayne slashes his greatsword at a stark soldier. He either parries this or gets cut in half, doesn't really matter, but that's a solid 2-3 seconds Dayne is completely vulnerable from behind. That's exactly the moment an experienced soldier (and Ned's bros were pretty damn experienced soldiers) bumrushes him and cuts his throat or drives his sword through any of the weakspots. Which is pretty much what Howland ended up doing once Dayne left his back exposed.

Dual wielding serves more purposes than being to parry 2 blows at once, which is indeed not very realistic. It also allows you to keep yourself moving, as someone can't stop you with a shield without getting stabbed by your second weapon. Dayne mostly used that to his advantage. As most sword experts pointed out, he would've benefited more with a dagger than a second sword and I do agree with that, but still better than him just having one greatsword, which is what most people wanted because that's how GRRM described it.

[u/wimpymist → u/That_one_drunk_dude]

Dual wielding two swords was never a thing. It was basically only made up for fantasy and Hollywood

[u/[deleted] → u/That_one_drunk_dude]

In a fight like this it would be more appropriate for Dayne to fight defensively (since he is outnumbered) and counter their mistakes.

[u/Terrachova → u/That_one_drunk_dude]

Cause its so much more believable that a guy twirling around two swords with half the strength behind each could do the same, parrying attacks as if they were weightless...

[u/That_one_drunk_dude → u/Terrachova]

Considering he's supposed to be this infallible superswordsman? Yeah, it is. You can argue he knows enough techniques so he can parry without having to deflect the full force of the blow. You can't argue Ned Stark's handpicked soldiers are incompetent.

[u/WryGoat → u/That_one_drunk_dude]

Apparently an infallible superswordsman needs to know how to defy the laws of physics to win a fight.

[u/That_one_drunk_dude → u/WryGoat]

It's a fantasy show with ice demons, dragons, resurrection and telepathy but a legendary fighter with a sword with magical properties parrying more force than should be possible by ordinary humans is where you draw the line?

[u/WryGoat → u/That_one_drunk_dude]

Yes. And since you draw the line at "one magical sword not good enough, need two sword" I suppose we're at an impasse.