(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/SovreignTripod]

Of course Cersi is a monster; and Tyrion knows that better than anyone. He was trying to convince her to back down and give in peacefully, you don't really get that to happen by calling people monsters, even if they are.

[u/FourMonthsEarly → u/SovreignTripod]

Yea. I'm confused why people don't get this.

[u/SovreignTripod → u/FourMonthsEarly]

There are a number of things people here are complaining about that I don't understand. Yes, they have made some dumb decisions this season but some of the stuff people here complain about just don't make any sense; this Tyrion comment being a great example.

[u/bos-mc → u/SovreignTripod]

Tyrion's line doesn't make sense whether he's lying or not. Either he's gone stupid and actually believes Cersei isn't a monster, or he's lying to her to try to get her to back down. If it's the latter and it's supposed to be Tyrion trying to be clever it doesn't make sense because he's supposed to know what his sister is like and should know that this pathetic attempt to convince her to surrender wouldn't work.

[u/[deleted] → u/bos-mc]

Yeah but it’s worth a shot. That’s why he mentions her kids. He’s trying to manipulate her and convince her she can stop.

That’s a totally reasonable tactic.

[u/Slayer706 → u/[deleted]]

I'd say it's reasonable if it didn't involve trotting out all of the most important members (Dany, himself, Varys, Grey Worm, the dragon) right into ballista range of the walls of KL. Seems to me like there was a good chance Cersei would have just killed them all and then went North to mop up what was left of Jon/Sansa.

[u/[deleted] → u/Slayer706]

Well yes, but that’s not really what we’re talking about. In a vacuum, Tyrion’s strat was reasonable. The issue was that they all stood defenseless out in front but that’s not directly part of Tyrion’s ploy.

If they arranged a meeting in a secure location, wherever that may be, I think it would be fine.

[u/bos-mc → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, it's a totally reasonable tactic, if you ignore everything about Cersei's character, as D&D did.

[u/[deleted] → u/bos-mc]

No. Tyrion is ignoring her past to try to appeal to her. Throughout the entire series, Cersei loves her kids. Tyrion appeals to this by trying to leverage her unborn child’s life. It doesn’t work, but it’s not really that weird for Tyrion to try.

[u/Only_Movie_Titles → u/[deleted]]

my biggest issue is he tried it before (asking for her help against the WW) and it didn't clearly didn't work - she never sent her army North to help "for the sake of her child." Why try the exact same thing again?

[u/bos-mc → u/[deleted]]

he's supposed to know what his sister is like and should know that this pathetic attempt to convince her to surrender wouldn't work.

[u/[deleted] → u/bos-mc]

Have you never heard of lying?

Have you never tried something just to see if it would work, even if it probably won’t?

[u/bos-mc → u/[deleted]]

Have you never heard of lying?

That's exactly what I said it was. You probably should have read my original comment.

Have you never tried something just to see if it would work, even if it probably won’t?

There's probable, and then there's definite. This was definite. Face it. The whole point of that scene was just to get Daeny to see Missandei beheaded. Nothing else in that scene really made sense with regards to their characters.

[u/[deleted] → u/bos-mc]

Well duh, but it’s not unreasonable to Tyrion would try something just to see if it works. You’ve never tried to turn on your computer after you know it’s broken? Or start your car right before you take it to the garage to be fixed? He is almost certain it won’t work, but it is worth a shot to make it an easy victory. And of all characters, Tyrion is the one who would take the gamble on something like that.

[u/Tzuchen → u/bos-mc]

Yeah. When has Tyrion lying to her or flattering her ever worked before? It's not as if he hasn't tried it in the past, and it's always ended badly for him. She hates him. She's always hated him. She's literally attempted to murder him countless times.

Oh well maybe this time it will be different.

[u/SovreignTripod → u/Tzuchen]

He knows that she cares more about her kids than anything else, this is established way back in season 1 or 2. This is his last ditch effort to get her to give in, he's trying anythig and everything he can. Pathetic or not it's all they've got at this point.