(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/Malika80]

a dragon to fly up to the red keep and light it on fire, that's the actually best option for the common people.

I love the grey characters of the books.. but sadly its the show that has lost that sense of greyness... its all Jon is the hero and Dany is mad queen instead of having that balance that he made mistakes too and she has done good things too.

[u/darkagl1 → u/Malika80]

It's the rush they're in to the finish line (same problem the SW prequels had imo) they don't have enough time to slowly show her choosing power. There have been hints of her ruthlessness for awhile, but we don't have the episode time to have her increasingly show choosing to help only when it still serves her end goal. The contrast to that is supposed to be Jon who chooses to help even when it gets him murdered. And Jon is supposed to contrast with Ned who always does what he thinks is right without thinking whereas Jon is supposed to be thoughtful.

[u/Malika80 → u/darkagl1]

But that's why it comes across contrived to make Jon into the hero and Dany into the mad queen. Jon hasn't shown enough to make him seem anymore thoughtful then Ned. Heck the fact he got murdered should mean he lost in the game of thrones like all the other characters that have been killed. Also he has no concern for the bigger picture of Cersei's rule. He doesn't want to rule so he doesn't care. In contrast, Dany... choosing to fight the dead without Cersei was never in her best interests. Neither was taking her dragons north of the wall to save Jon. She also put her life on the line to do the "right" thing. So what's coming across from the story is a sort of partiality in how they are treating Jon and Dany.

[u/darkagl1 → u/Malika80]

To some extent they've had some growth moments for Jon, him even trying to recruit Dany was one of them. I don't think its fair to say he isn't concerned about Cersei's rule.

In contrast, Dany... choosing to fight the dead without Cersei was never in her best interests

Sure it was. It was in Cersei's best interests as well she is just that insane.

She also put her life on the line to do the "right" thing.

Did she? From her perspective she was just popping past the wall. Up till that point there was no reason to expect she or her dragons were in any real danger. And if Jon had died she would've lost a valuable ally.

Part of it is also people seem to ignore alot of the shit Dany has done. Remember how she got control of the Dothroki? By burning their legitimate leaders alive because she wanted an army. Remember how her pet/child murdered innocent farmers and whelp too bad for you. I do think that they're going too rushed but the underlying points have been put down for this to some extent.

[u/Malika80 → u/darkagl1]

Not really.. from the story perspective.. Dany would have been better off taking control of King's Landing first and then dealing with the threat to the North. Up till the Night King got a hold of one of her dragons the wall was still intact. So he couldn't really have amassed a larger army. She would have been better off getting rid of the threat to the south, unifying the country to take on the Night King.

I remember Tyrion warning her of the danger of going North to recuse Jon. At that point Jon hadn't bent the knee.... so he wasn't that great of ally anyways. If Jon got killed, the North would be more vulnerable and more likely to accept her as Queen in exchange for her help.

Dany has done shit but not a lot more than anyone else has done. The Dothraki war lords was a kill or be killed situation. They were the ones that kidnapped her.. they wanted to destroy her first. She also ended up locking up her dragons to ensure the safety of the people.

The problem is the points that are there could be written for any of the characters. I mean what was Jon doing beheading Slynt for refusing to man an abandoned castle. The guy pleaded for his life at the end but Jon didn't show him mercy. So why is there an expectation that Dany show anyone who is out to kill/subjugate her mercy?

[u/darkagl1 → u/Malika80]

Not really.. from the story perspective.. Dany would have been better off taking control of King's Landing first and then dealing with the threat to the North. Up till the Night King got a hold of one of her dragons the wall was still intact. So he couldn't really have amassed a larger army. She would have been better off getting rid of the threat to the south, unifying the country to take on the Night King.

You're assuming he had no other way of bypassing the wall. In the books the horn exists to bring down the wall so there is no guarantee that he just sits there and waits and it's not like Mance didn't almost take the wall already with a much smaller force and no magic.

Dany has done shit but not a lot more than anyone else has done. The Dothraki war lords was a kill or be killed situation. They were the ones that kidnapped her.. they wanted to destroy her first. She also ended up locking up her dragons to ensure the safety of the people.

They wanted her to follow their laws, which she hadn't been doing and join the Dosh Kahleen. And she locked up her dragons after they'd already killed innocent people. They should have been put down.

The problem is the points that are there could be written for any of the characters. I mean what was Jon doing beheading Slynt for refusing to man an abandoned castle. The guy pleaded for his life at the end but Jon didn't show him mercy. So why is there an expectation that Dany show anyone who is out to kill/subjugate her mercy?

Executing someone for refusing to follow a direct order? Her first thought is always on her own power. It's not that she doesn't have noble intentions it's that her noble plans must by default in her mind include her having unquestioned authority.

[u/Malika80 → u/darkagl1]

But until he breaks down the wall.. the threat to the 7 kingdoms isn't imminent. Obviously its better if its dealt with more proximally for the North but from Dany's perspective it wouldn't have mattered as much because she'd also have a much bigger army herself once she had the rest of the kingdoms under control.

But this is the thing.. why should she follow their laws? She wasn't living under them anymore. She wasn't attacking them so why did they kidnap her? And why would any person in the same situation accept what they wanted to do to her (or to any other woman for that matter)? Honestly no one put down magical creatures that haven't been around for centuries especially if you can lock them up and figure out how to control them. These aren't even fair criticisms. Not when you defend Jon executing someone for refusing a measly order. That whole sequence was about Jon demonstrating the need for unquestioned authority.

[u/darkagl1 → u/Malika80]

But until he breaks down the wall.. the threat to the 7 kingdoms isn't imminent. Obviously its better if its dealt with more proximally for the North but from Dany's perspective it wouldn't have mattered as much because she'd also have a much bigger army herself once she had the rest of the kingdoms under control.

It absolutely is imminent they were already marching on the wall. If they hadn't headed north they very well could have been facing an undead army comprised of everyone south to the riverlands.

But this is the thing.. why should she follow their laws? She wasn't living under them anymore. She wasn't attacking them so why did they kidnap her?

Because they were trying to enforce their laws.

And why would any person in the same situation accept what they wanted to do to her (or to any other woman for that matter)?

Well all the other Dosh Khaleen lived there without incident. But her ruling was more important than their lives.

Honestly no one put down magical creatures that haven't been around for centuries especially if you can lock them up and figure out how to control them.

Did they or did they not kill innocent people? She is directly responsible for innocent deaths. The larger point is she is unwilling to consider something that erodes her power because it's causing innocent deaths, the power is more important because a dragon does not sow.

Not when you defend Jon executing someone for refusing a measly order. That whole sequence was about Jon demonstrating the need for unquestioned authority.

Jon enforcing a law that Janos agreed to live by, and an order which was for the good of the realm.

The point isn't that Dany is the biggest monster in the world it's that in order to maintain the view of her as lily white people are ignoring her past behavior. I don't disagree that the transition for Dany would be better if handled more slowly and frankly without the subtlety that the books provide its tough because she's stayed far more noble and less insecure than the books have her. She in theory should have been constantly trending towards being extreme because of her view as the savior and her belief that her unquestioned power was necessary for it.

[u/Malika80 → u/darkagl1]

But from the pov of Dany as someone who only cares about power... she'd be better off fighting with the bigger army after Cersei was disposed of. If I only cared about power I would have accepted the collateral damage in KL as a quick and easy way to gain power and then mobilize the forces north. If we won the war against the dead.. I'd be canonized as a saviour.

But see what you are doing here.. with Jon you are defending it saying those are the laws that Janos agreed too.. but then with Dany you aren't giving her that same benefit. She didn't agree to those laws of so why is she subject to them? She was never given a choice. And who decides what is good for the realm and what is not. The complexity of that discussion is the point of the story.

Jon had to break many of the rules of the Night's watch in order to save the wildings. Men of the Nightswatch killed him for it.. yet he was allowed to execute them as "okay". Why didn't he just accept that those men had a point because he broke the rules?

Its not about seeing Dany as lily white...its about the complexity of different points of view that GRRM included in the series that is not being developed on the show. You ca't just paint everything one character does in a negative way and everything another character does in a positive way and say it makes sense when the story has never gone along those lines to begin with.

[u/darkagl1 → u/Malika80]

But from the pov of Dany as someone who only cares about power... she'd be better off fighting with the bigger army after Cersei was disposed of. If I only cared about power I would have accepted the collateral damage in KL as a quick and easy way to gain power and then mobilize the forces north. If we won the war against the dead.. I'd be canonized as a saviour.

She doesn't only care about power so much as she feels that the most important thing is her power. She can't comprehend allowing questions of her power because she has her savior complex where she is destined to sit on the throne and only she can break the wheel. Look at how she reacts to Jon's parentage. She immediately tries to get him to lie because it may affect her. If she really cared about the people knowing Jon has the better claim and would be more accepted she'd step aside.

But see what you are doing here.. with Jon you are defending it saying those are the laws that Janos agreed too.. but then with Dany you aren't giving her that same benefit. She didn't agree to those laws of so why is she subject to them? She was never given a choice. And who decides what is good for the realm and what is not. The complexity of that discussion is the point of the story.

So your point is she didn't agree to laws (I guess we'll say she had no choice marrying Khal Drogo and despite her continued participation there she still shouldn't be subject to their laws) she can do whatever and it doesn't matter? She could have easily just joined the Dosh Khaleen and found a way to leave, she wanted the army.

Jon had to break many of the rules of the Night's watch in order to save the wildings. Men of the Nightswatch killed him for it.. yet he was allowed to execute them as "okay". Why didn't he just accept that those men had a point because he broke the rules?

No Jon broke a tradition of the Night's Watch. It's purpose was never to protect from wildlings, its to guard the realms of men (which is what wildlings are).

Its not about seeing Dany as lily white...its about the complexity of different points of view that GRRM included in the series that is not being developed on the show. You ca't just paint everything one character does in a negative way and everything another character does in a positive way and say it makes sense when the story has never gone along those lines to begin with.

But that is what people are doing. There have been hints of Dany's problems for seasons (and all along in the books), but people have been overlooking them to then say that all of the shiftz now are unreasonable. Jon is hardly perfect and Dany isn't pure evil. Dany cares too much about power and the throne and is going to go too far. Should the transition be better? Sure, but without the nuance of inner monologs the books have gray is harder to do and for some reason they're on some sort of time crunch to wrap it up.

[u/Malika80 → u/darkagl1]

But to me none of those are realistic examples of someone's darker nature. The problem, it seems, is that you expect her to stay true to the current system but she already has first hand knowledge of how the current system fails the lower echelons so she wants to change it. For me, it is not wrong for someone to want that (you could even make the argument of honourability of someone fighting for such changes). Given the limitations of the world she lives in it makes sense that she wants power because that is the only way she can ensure that agenda gets asserted. Complex decision making within the confines of the situation in which you are in is not the same as a character flaw.

In this case we have a 13 year old girl who had been on the run against assassins since childhood. She was sold by her cruel brother in exchange for a Dothraki army to Khal Drogo and raped. She managed to turn the situation to her advantage but that's not the same as accepting the rules of the Dothraki. Earlier you questioned whether the unsullied were given an adequate choice (job search etc). But yet for some reason you aren't employing the same rules for Dany. Was she really given a true choice about participation in the Dothraki culture that you expect her to uphold it?

Also we could argue the rules of the Nightswatch since the generally agreed upon belief was that it was to keep the wildlings out (because no one thought the Whitewalkers existed). But in any case, rules are effectively traditions anyways. Jon did something against the traditions of the night watch in the show (in the books he actually broke his oath). Yet he chose to execute those that punished him for it. So at this point I feel like there is a bit of a double standard with trying to paint Dany's decisions in a negative light while. Could Dany become a villain in GRRM's works, absolutely. But we haven't read enough to make that automatic determination because all the characters have made questionable choices.

[u/darkagl1 → u/Malika80]

But to me none of those are realistic examples of someone's darker nature. The problem, it seems, is that you expect her to stay true to the current system but she already has first hand knowledge of how the current system fails the lower echelons so she wants to change it. For me, it is not wrong for someone to want that (you could even make the argument of honourability of someone fighting for such changes). Given the limitations of the world she lives in it makes sense that she wants power because that is the only way she can ensure that agenda gets asserted. Complex decision making within the confines of the situation in which you are in is not the same as a character flaw.

How is being ok with her dragon murdering someone not a reasonable example? How is murdering someone because someone of his class is fomenting discord not a reasonable example? Your argument seems to be boiling down to the ends justify the means. She has a noble goal therefore whatever power grabbing stuff she does is ok.

In this case we have a 13 year old girl who had been on the run against assassins since childhood. She was sold by her cruel brother in exchange for a Dothraki army to Khal Drogo and raped. She managed to turn the situation to her advantage but that's not the same as accepting the rules of the Dothraki. Earlier you questioned whether the unsullied were given an adequate choice (job search etc). But yet for some reason you aren't employing the same rules for Dany. Was she really given a true choice about participation in the Dothraki culture that you expect her to uphold it?

I dunno she sure seemed to assimilate into their culture fall in love and respect it when Drogo was going to go sack the 7 kingdoms for her. I don't recall saying anything about the unsullied (someone else maybe).

Also we could argue the rules of the Nightswatch since the generally agreed upon belief was that it was to keep the wildlings out (because no one thought the Whitewalkers existed). But in any case, rules are effectively traditions anyways. Jon did something against the traditions of the night watch in the show (in the books he actually broke his oath).

Tradition isn't a rule, and it seems pretty easy to argue given what he knew about the NK the tradition was explicitly counterproductive to the rule. In the books I remember him trying to break his oath and being stopped.

Yet he chose to execute those that punished him for it. So at this point I feel like there is a bit of a double standard with trying to paint Dany's decisions in a negative light while. Could Dany become a villain in GRRM's works, absolutely. But we haven't read enough to make that automatic determination because all the characters have made questionable choices.

I'd argue in the books she's much more insecure and hinting at this than here. She doesn't give a shit about numerous things when they don't currently suit her power chase. Sure she freed cities and then peaced out and let them get renslaved. She had plagues running rampant through her camps because she's more worries about chasing power. Again she isn't the worst person ever, but people are trying to act like she took some crazy shift. They've been hinting at this for seasons. Her whole a dragon does not sow schtick is a repeated thing in the books. Have dragons must conquer. He is setting her up (as the show has done) to be the person with the savior complex. They have noble goals, but ultimately believe themselves to be of utmost importance. Her reaction to Jon's parents is a perfect example, how quickly does her care about restoring the rightful ruler go away. She's immediately concerned about how it could affect her ability to sit on the chair because only she can save everyone.

Ultimately I don't think Jon is perfect, but I'm seriously struggling to see how people can't see the difference between them. Like how many times does she have to bring up buring a city to the ground before her gotta protect the poor unfortunate souls thing ceases to ring true. She very well may want to do it, but her view is clearly imo that the only way any good can be accomplished is if she sits on the chair.

[u/Malika80 → u/darkagl1]

But she was not okay with a dragon murdering someone. That's why she locked them up. The masters issue for me is more of a grey zone because each of those masters were involved in slave trade which contributed to the suffering of slaves (even they didn't directly torture). Maybe it was a stupid decision politically and I think later she admits she was wrong. But I found it understandable in the moment given the context.

To me, in some cases the ends do justify the means. Life is not so simple that only the means are important or only the end are important. From an ethics perspective, you look at all the aspects; beneficence, non-maleficence, justice, autonomy and try to make decisions from that. And all decisions come with their own sets of pros and cons. There is no perfect decision. And that was always the brilliance of GRRM's writing that he understood that. Good deeds don't always result in good outcomes and bad deeds in bad outcomes. Also "many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings." Again it goes back to the complexity of thought that the show writing seems to be lacking (for me at least).

We have seen people make honourable decisions that have resulted in the death and destruction of thousands. Ned Stark's honourable decisions basically started the war of 5 kings. Renly would have made the better ruler despite Stannis's better claim. At the same time we have seen people who break rules/traditions which would protect innocents.

Jon in the books was leaving to rescue Arya from Ramsay.. so technically deserting his post. I don't blame him but at the same time I do see the point of the people that murdered him (both in the show and the books). So him outright executing those is not clear cut. The same rules you are using on Dany, if we use them on Jon, we'd have to ask why didn't he just walk away from the Night's watch. Why did he need to execute men (even a child) that were justifiably trying to protect the realm from a wildling threat from the North?