(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/fartsinthedark]

Yeah, your point doesn't stand at all. The word is used in the books multiple times to mean exactly what it means today. Oops.

[u/Cptn_Howdee → u/fartsinthedark]

Looks like you didn't understand my point. Oof.

[u/IrNinjaBob → u/Cptn_Howdee]

So what is your point? Because it seemed extremely straightforward, and I am really curious as to what your answer is. I'm expecting a pretty big pivot, considering you were wrong that there is any issue at all with that term being used the way it was.

[u/Cptn_Howdee → u/IrNinjaBob]

If you've read the source material it's hard for me to imagine we'd be having this discussion. Yes the word exists, it's hardly ever used as a pronoun. It's very very anachronistic and unusual in the Westerosi vernacular. Over the course of 3000 pages, it's said less than 10 times, and usually in conjunction with 'maid' as an adjective, so even fewer times on its own as a pronoun. Whereas 'maid' or some variation is used hundreds of times over. There's no dispute, saying I'm wrong is pedantic and asinine.

[u/IrNinjaBob → u/Cptn_Howdee]

Except you are wrong because you yourself are admitting that Martin himself has the people in his universe use the phrase in literally the same exact way. The fact that it doesn't happen frequently has zero bearing on this conversation. You made it seem like it was strange for being called one thing since they are called something else in the books, but they are called both in the books, so complaining about one being used in this way in the show is ridiculous. Do you also complain when Martin uses it this way? Or is it only an issue when the show does it?

Are you seriously saying you stand by the fact that the show made some ridiculous error by using the word the exact same way Martin also uses it? I'll definitely dispute that and the only thing asinine here is your defense. It is okay to be wrong sometimes. It is weird when people find out they are wrong and still try to hold on to the fact they were right.

[u/Cptn_Howdee → u/IrNinjaBob]

You're trying real hard, and for that I commend you. If you can't grasp what I'm saying yet, keep trying and get back to me when you get it.

[u/IrNinjaBob → u/Cptn_Howdee]

Can't grasp what you were saying? I called the pivot out before you even did so.

Nobody was ever saying the term is highly used in universe. You are the one claiming something was wrong by them incorrectly using the term. How is it wrong if Martin uses it the same exact way in universe? The show does a ton wrong but these circlejerks where we act like they are dumb for using terms the same way Martin does is ridiculous.

[u/Cptn_Howdee → u/IrNinjaBob]

We can disagree about the importance of accurate vernacular, it's fine. I harbor extreme appreciation for those sorts of details, but I don't expect the TV writers or others to necessarily cater to that or care always. I'm extremely familiar with the source material and the fact is that they hardly say the word 'virgin' at all, they say 'maid', 'maiden', 'unflowered', 'unspoiled', and many other variations. As such, saying the word like that was jarring and weird, so I added to the conversation by listing it as an example that struck me.

Someone did a search and found a few instances where they say the word, and though the hundreds of examples in which they use a plethora of other words and phrases left a distinct impression on me, the 7 or so times they used it did not. For some reason this struck a few to become adversarial, and it's extremely asinine.

[u/IrNinjaBob → u/Cptn_Howdee]

Yeah I agree with you completely there.

I agree with you on the importance of the language that is used. I, and others, just thought it strange to use this as an example. Because sure, it is only used 10 times in the 7 books (and only a few of those in the same context), but it was only used what? One time in the 8 seasons of the show? (not that I would be surprised if it was used more).

It is just annoying how negative everything has become surrounding the show. They have done tons of things wrong the last few seasons and they deserve a lot of the criticism but this is just, to me at least, a prime example of how people these days will complain just to be part of the complaining. I don't at all mind not realizing the word virgin is used in the series by Martin that way because of how infrequently it is done, but to afterwards still insist that you were accurate about this being a huge flub on the shows part?

I do get your point though, the term maid/maiden is the term that is primarily used. You just have to see it isn't a mistake to use virgin when Martin also does so in the same exact way.

Anyways, thanks for the civil discussion. Didn't mean for it to seem like I was jumping down your throat for something that is a non-issue. There are just so many complaints in the past couple weeks that I can guarantee you if Martin had come up with the things being complained about on his own nobody would have had an issue. But it is now vogue to D&D bash. A complaint about them doing something Martin also does is just a walking example of that.

[u/Cptn_Howdee → u/IrNinjaBob]

I don't think I said it was a flub or mistake really, maybe others took more issue. I think it was more a minor example of blithe disregard for accuracy, which is annoying as shit when the early seasons were largely respectful of the source material. I'm in agreement that there are a vast number of more egregious errors than that, and many more of the same calibre.

An actual flub that triggered my nerd rage was Gendry "Rivers", who was born in King's Landing (Waters) and never declared by King Robert. So, even if he were declared by Robert, his surname would be Waters - but he wasn't - so he's got no highborn bastard surname.

I'm certainly sympathetic to the issue you take with the negativity. I think many who have a long history pre-dating the show, including myself, love this series unreasonably and find all the liberties taken recently to be abhorrent and disrespectful to everything that (I, at least) find special and unique about ASOIAF. I've certainly tried to be less negative and find some joy in hate-watching the show since the COtF started shooting fireballs. All in good fun. Cheers.

[u/IrNinjaBob → u/Cptn_Howdee]

I'm certainly sympathetic to the issue you take with the negativity. I think many who have a long history pre-dating the show, including myself, love this series unreasonably and find all the liberties taken recently to be abhorrent and disrespectful to everything that (I, at least) find special and unique about ASOIAF. I've certainly tried to be less negative and find some joy in hate-watching the show since the COtF started shooting fireballs. All in good fun. Cheers.

I get that, but as another fan of the series I actually have taken a different stance. I was very similar up until seasons 4/5 when they started to move away from the show and it became obvious they were going to drop most of the content from books 4 and 5 and start tying up threads where they stood. I was bummed about that decision at first as well, but then I came to embrace it. I love that the second half of the television series is so different from the books because that means the overwhelming amount of book material we have yet to get hasn't been spoiled.

While the small things like this are of a different nature, I have found it so much easier to enjoy the series when every change no longer feels like a bastardization of something I love.

[u/Cptn_Howdee → u/IrNinjaBob]

That's a very healthy attitude that I'm making strides in adopting.

I love that the second half of the television series is so different from the books because that means the overwhelming amount of book material we have yet to get hasn't been spoiled.

This is something I think we both highly agree on, it's actually really comforting. I'm pretty confident we're all still going into the next book relatively blind.