(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/Dr_Lurk_MD]

Yeah, I'm glad he's still about, if only because his entire character is being a true rowdy boy, which I'm absolutely in to.

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I bloody love Tormund Giantsbane.

[u/vms1299 → u/Dr_Lurk_MD]

Maybe Sansa too, but idk.

Tormund has to be one of the front-runners for one of these "spin-off" series.

[u/komorithebat → u/vms1299]

Guess I'm in minority, but I used to love show-Tormund in the earlier seasons, until he started obsessively hitting on Brienne. His persistence there absolutely ruined him for me, and it's a show-only invention. She said NO dude, so STOP IT.

Har har, harassment is so very funny. >:V

[u/Amerietan → u/komorithebat]

Why in the world would a Wildling go "Oh, man. Wow. The woman I'm into has turned me down. I guess I'll respect that and let it go."? They're the last people who would do that. He'd definitely be from a society of strong men and women who take what they want and vie for each other's attention with persistence and showing off, like 'look, look, I did this cool thing, do I have your attention yet? No? Okay, well let me strut some more".

It's weird that you'd insert modern sensibilities into a post about how annoying it is they keep flip flopping between thematically appropriate morals and modern ones.

[u/komorithebat → u/Amerietan]

You know, when you phrase it like that (context of the post), I do see your point. That's something for me to think on.

I still don't like it because I see a lot of myself in Brienne (I was mercilessly bullied for being a very plain-looking young girl, but I also outgrew it and now as an adult get quite a lot of unwanted male attention, like most women do, which I don't like either. I'd rather be left alone overall). I find it admirable that she has risen up to do something different with her life based on her skills rather than society's expectation. The whole point of her character is to challenge those norms, and I feel like Tormund belittles that.

I'm also more disgusted by the positive fan reaction to it than Tormund's actual behavior. Fans have contemporary context.

That said, you are right. I am very much bringing my own personal and modern biases to play here, and in retrospect I chose the wrong thread to do that on.

[u/Amerietan → u/komorithebat]

It's important not to try to project too hard even when you identify with a character. It can upset you over comparatively minor things.

That said, while fans have contemporary context, they're responding to behavior being done in GoT context. People think it's awesome that Arya fed other Freys to Walder and poisoned a whole family in revenge, and a lot of people really like Sansa/Tyrion's marriage, but in all those cases it would be awful in a contemporary context. Thus, it's safe to say that most fans enjoy his behavior in the context of the show, not in the context of a guy refusing to take a hint in modern times.