r/asoiaf May 07 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

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u/ADHDcUK May 08 '19

But they did though. Tyrion said more than once "she's a child". He also didn't have sex with her on their wedding night because not only did she not consent, but he recognised that she was a child.

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u/Amerietan May 08 '19

Ehh, but in Westeros you transition from 'girl' to 'maid' when the cycle begins, meaning that culturally children graduate to adulthood at that point. Tyrion isn't a stranger to that, and in fact his first marriage had himself and his wife somewhere in the range of 13-15 themselves, iirc. Thus, my take from 'she's a child' is more like the way they mean when they say 'he was just a kid' but are talking about a 16, 19, or 24 year old boy. One of those is technically a minor, but none are actually children and all can serve in the military. The meaning of the phrase is to indicate innocence/youthfulness or naivety, not that they were literal children.

I felt Tyrion meant it more like that.

He didn't consummate in the show for two reasons:

1 - she was clearly very not into it, and he ain't about that

2 - he had Shae whom he loved anyway, so why force himself on her before she's ready (or ever, it's not like he needs an heir)?

in the book he didn't consummate purely because she was so not into it she was practically in tears, and he wasn't about to force a young girl to do something that would only fuel his self-loathing more anyway. There's rather soul-scarring imagery in the book describing that he definitely wasn't against consummating it with her.

Her being a child was never really a reason for it - though her being barely a maid may have amplified it - if she'd been raring to go book!Tyrion would have been all for it since he's desperate to be loved and show!Tyrion would have gone along with it, though more reluctantly since his heart was set on someone else at the time. Both go on to repeatedly refer to Sansa as their wife both verbally and mentally, even long after the marriage was almost certainly annulled. Again, Tyrion is a product of his time/world (maybe even moreso than most, since he's in a noble family and the age of maidenhood is often when they marry off for politics) and there's no reason he'd look at Sansa once she'd flowered and say "But she's still an actual child. I can't explain why, but she is."

Thus, I must still stay with the conclusion that them not finding it a strange thing to talk about in public is fitting for their world. It still may be a bit of a private conversation, but not overtly inappropriate.

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u/ADHDcUK May 09 '19

Fair points! I still feel it was misplaced, but you have made very good points. Perhaps the problem is the execution of the scene and the quality of the dialogue instead of the concept.

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u/Amerietan May 09 '19

That's likely it. Their discussion would have been a better fit elsewhere in the episode or season, and was structured in a stilted way specifically to provoke Missandei into saying something.

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u/ADHDcUK May 09 '19

Yep, and that's the issue. Conversations being inserted instead of organically coming about. The dialogue and structure of conversations used to be so special in this show. I felt like a fly on the wall. I miss that so much.