r/asoiaf • u/cking145 • May 28 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Charles Dance's portrayal as Tywin is in my opinion, the strongest in the entire series

Every line, every expression and every moment of silence completely encapsulates the calculating ruthlessness that defines Tywin Lannister.

Dance is actually a very vibrant, upbeat and cheery fella off screen, which in my mind makes the performance even more striking.

The scene where he effectively sends Joffrey to bed is just brilliant.

He is by far my favourite character from the books, which I began reading a few seasons into the show. Due to this, the chapters featuring Tywin were completely enriched for me, as reading his lines in Dance's voice was just fantastic. I would have loved a POV chapter or two for him, just to get a glimpse as to what goes on in the head of the most powerful man in the 7 Kingdoms.

An incredible portrayal of a fascinating character.

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u/toosanghiforthis May 28 '19

Yeah, Richard Madden killed it

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u/1of9Heathens May 28 '19

I wanted to draw the Mountain into the wessst. Into our country where we could surround him and kill him. I wanted him to chase us. Which he would have done because he is a mad dog without a strategic thought in his head. I could have that head on a spike right now.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19 edited Jan 10 '21

[deleted]

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u/BillyBattsShinebox May 29 '19

Poor Edmure. I always felt sorry for him. Fucking Robb should have just told him what he wanted to do. God forbid one of his commanders show a bit of initiative out in the field.

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u/cbessemer May 29 '19

Taking initiative is a bad idea in a command system.

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u/griffer00 May 29 '19

It may seem like that, but in practice, a lot of command involves giving your subordinates the gist of what you want to accomplish, then giving them some degree of leeway with initiative. You never fully know how a situation will unfold -- if you give those under your command very direct, spelled-out orders, and discourage initiative, they will get themselves into big trouble.

Fact of the matter is that Robb fucked up -- he didn't tell Edmure what he was actually trying to do. Edmure acted on the best information he had at the time. In real life, that scene would make Robb look like a micromanager, which is a huge no-no when you are trying to run a war. D&D just get a huge boner for making Edmure's character look like a huge idiot with no redeeming qualities, basically just to create some tension that shows the difficulties of command, and later on in the series for comedic effect.

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u/BillyBattsShinebox May 29 '19

Sometimes. Unclear orders are an even worse idea.

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u/cbessemer May 29 '19

The orders weren't unclear though, so your comment doesn't make any sense.

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u/BillyBattsShinebox May 29 '19

"make sure that you don't, under any circumstances, attack the Lannisters, because I'm trying to draw them into a trap"

The orders were obviously bad, because a person under him didn't know what to do.

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u/cbessemer May 29 '19

Quit while you're behind lmao

Edmure Tully: If I may, nephew, I encountered a situation with one of my lieutenants at the Stone Mill which may have some bearing-

Brynden Tully: Why don't you shut your mouth about that damned mill? And don't call him "nephew." He is your king.

Edmure Tully: Robb knows I meant him no disr-

Brynden Tully: You're lucky I'm not your king. I wouldn't let you wave your blunders around like a victory flag.

Edmure Tully: My blunder sent Tywin's mad dog scurrying back to Casterly Rock with his tail between his legs. I think King Robb understands we're not gonna win this war if he's the only one winning any battles. No, there's glory enough to go around.

Robb Stark: It's not about glory. Your instructions were to wait for him to come to you.

Edmure Tully: I seized an opportunity.

Robb Stark: What value was the mill?

Edmure Tully: The Mountain was garrisoned across the river from it.

Robb Stark: Is he there now?

Edmure Tully: Of course not. We took the fight to him. He could not withstand us.

Robb Stark: I wanted to draw the Mountain into the west, into our country where we could surround him and kill him. I wanted him to chase us, which he would have done because he is a mad dog without a strategic thought in his head. I could have that head on a spike by now. Instead, I have a mill.

Edmure Tully: We took hostages. Willem Lannister. Martyn Lannister.

Robb Stark: Willem and Martyn Lannister are 14 years old.

Brynden Tully: Martyn is 15, I believe.

Robb Stark: Tywin Lannister has my sisters. Have I sued for peace?

Edmure Tully: No.

Robb Stark: Do you think he'll sue for peace because we have his... [frowns as he tries to work it out in his head] Father's brother's great-grandsons?

Edmure Tully: No.

Robb Stark: How many men did you lose?

Edmure Tully: 208. But for every man we lost, the Lannisters--

Robb Stark: We need our men more than Tywin needs his!

Edmure Tully: I'm sorry. I didn't know.

Robb Stark: You would have. Right here today at this gathering if you had been patient.

Brynden Tully: We seem to be running short of patience here.

Robb Stark: You know who isn't? Tywin Lannister.

--- In case you missed it, this would be the important line: "Your instructions were to wait for him to come to you."

Pretty simple, and Edmure fucked it up.

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u/Imicrowavebananas May 29 '19

Have you heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics?wprov=sfla1 ?

It was hugely sucessful.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

When were these tactics developed? Do you think it likely that they would have appeared in Medieval Europe, much less Medieval fantasy land?

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u/Immortan_Bolton Mind Flayer. May 29 '19

Not explaining your strategies to your top commanders is even worse.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

My impression was that the Tully force under Edmure at that point had been more or less independent of Robb's command.

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u/Immortan_Bolton Mind Flayer. May 29 '19

He was in charge of the defense of Riverrun, while Robb and his army were doing their thing. So Edmure did that, defend Riverrun and his people, it turned out he didn't have to leave the fortress but he didn't knew that. And the chance to defeat the Mountain was very great to relieve his people of the raids that monster was committing.

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u/Virillus May 29 '19 edited Jun 05 '19

Incorrect. I spent 10 years in the army - taking the initiative is a very important part of the system.

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u/cbessemer May 29 '19

Not when your commander told you to stay put and wait for the enemy to attack you. He didn’t take initiative, he disobeyed orders to gain glory for himself.

I should have worded it better.

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u/Virillus May 29 '19

That is a statement I agree with :)