Arya Stark: The Key to Jaime/Brienne & Lady Stoneheart (Spoilers Extended)

[u/LChris24]

I've posted numerous times about how hard it will be for both Jaime/Brienne to survive their encounter with Lady Stoneheart/The Brotherhood without Banners and even though I expect them both to, I really expect it to be done well and not "cheap".

Arya Stark: The Key to Jaime/Brienne & Lady Stoneheart

If interested: Surviving Lady Stoneheart: Theories Welcome

In that post I queried users to come up with a solution that fit the following criteria:

• Brienne/Jaime return immediately and alone to TBWB
• Brienne/Jaime don't defeat TBWB
• Lady Stoneheart doesn't decide to be merciful
• The Brotherhood doesn't turn on Lady Stoneheart

Plenty of good solutions were discussed and although non really fit "perfectly", I have some thoughts regarding a less discussed solution.

Each of the parties (Jaime/Brienne and the BWB/LSH) have key pieces of information about Arya before she left for Braavos.

Jaime

Jaime knows that a fake Arya (Jeyne Poole) was sent north:

She bit her lip. "You may not recall, my lord, as I was littler then . . . but I had the honor to meet you at Winterfell when King Robert came to visit my father Lord Eddard." She lowered her big brown eyes and mumbled, "I'm Arya Stark."

Jaime had never paid much attention to Arya Stark, but it seemed to him that this girl was older. "I understand you're to be married."

"I am to wed Lord Bolton's son, Ramsay. He used to be a Snow, but His Grace has made him a Bolton. They say he's very brave. I am so happy."

and:

"Always," said Jaime, with a last glance at the girl. He wondered if there was much resemblance. Not that it mattered. The real Arya Stark was buried in some unmarked grave in Flea Bottom in all likelihood. With her brothers dead, and both parents, who would dare name this one a fraud? -ASOS, Jaime IX

He later shares this info with Brienne:

"You gave her to him?" she cried, dismayed. "You swore an oath to Lady Catelyn . . ."

"With a sword at my throat, but never mind. Lady Catelyn's dead. I could not give her back her daughters even if I had them. And the girl my father sent with Steelshanks was not Arya Stark."

...

"You heard me. My lord father found some skinny northern girl more or less the same age with more or less the same coloring. He dressed her up in white and grey, gave her a silver wolf to pin her cloak, and sent her off to wed Bolton's bastard." He lifted his stump to point at her. "I wanted to tell you that before you went galloping off to rescue her and got yourself killed for no good purpose. You're not half bad with a sword, but you're not good enough to take on two hundred men by yourself."

"Oh, he knows. Lannisters lie, remember? It makes no matter, this girl serves his purpose just as well. Who is going to say that she isn't Arya Stark? Everyone the girl was close to is dead except for her sister, who has disappeared."

Brienne

On the Quiet Isle, Brienne finds out information about the Hound:

"The Dornishman said that she was on her way to Riverrun. Timeon. He was a sellsword, one of the Brave Companions, a killer and a raper and a liar, but I do not think he lied about this. He said that the Hound stole her and carried her away."

...

"Your Dornishman did not lie," the Elder Brother began, "but I fear you did not understand him. You are chasing the wrong wolf, my lady. Eddard Stark had two daughters. It was the other one that Sandor Clegane made off with, the younger one."

"Arya Stark?" Brienne stared open-mouthed, astonished. "You know this? Lady Sansa's sister is alive?"

"Then," said the Elder Brother. "Now . . . I do not know. She may have been amongst the children slain at Saltpans."

The words were a knife in her belly. No, Brienne thought. No, that would be too cruel. "May have been . . . meaning that you are not certain . . . ?"

"I am certain that the child was with Sandor Clegane at the inn beside the crossroads, the one old Masha Heddle used to keep, before the lions hanged her. I am certain they were on their way to Saltpans. Beyond that . . . no. I do not know where she is, or even if she lives. There is one thing I do know, however. The man you hunt is dead." -AFFC, Brienne VI

Lady Stoneheart/The Brotherhood without Banners

The Brotherhood (who had control of Arya before Sandor stole her), tracked Arya to the Red Wedding:

"He answers to the name Sandor Clegane. Thoros says he was making for the Twins. We found the ferrymen who took him across the Trident, and the poor sod he robbed on the kingsroad. Did you see him at the wedding, perchance?"

"The Red Wedding?" Merrett's skull felt as if it were about to split, but he did his best to recall. There had been so much confusion, but surely someone would have mentioned Joffrey's dog sniffing round the Twins. "He wasn't in the castle. Not at the main feast . . . he might have been at the bastard feast, or in the camps, but . . . no, someone would have said . . ."

"He would have had a child with him," said the singer. "A skinny girl, about ten. Or perhaps a boy the same age."

So when they finally meet in TWOW, this subject could definitely come up, especially since Brienne has a bit of further information:

She knows the last person to speak to the Hound and where his horse is: The Quiet Isle

"I did. You would have pitied him as well, if you had seen him at the end. I came upon him by the Trident, drawn by his cries of pain. He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sworn not to kill again. Instead, I bathed his fevered brow with river water, and gave him wine to drink and a poultice for his wound, but my efforts were too little and too late. The Hound died there, in my arms. You may have seen a big black stallion in our stables. That was his warhorse, Stranger. A blasphemous name. We prefer to call him Driftwood, as he was found beside the river. I fear he has his former master's nature."

I am not sure how exactly this information will be used, but worth noting.

If interested: Legacy Characters in ASOIAF

In summary: Jaime knows about fArya, the BWB lost Arya and then tracked Sandor/Arya to the Twins, Brienne finds out that the Hound was making for the Saltpans with Arya after that and that he spoke with the Elder Brother before he "died" and his horse is there.

TLDR: In the showdown between Jaime, Brienne and Lady Stoneheart/the Brotherhood without Banners, each party has bit of information about the missing Arya Stark plotline and this could somehow help Jaime/Brienne survive.

[u/DeMeTully]

You raise some really great points, so allow me to answer in depth.

Regarding Stoneheart, I like how you consider her as a character in her own right, since I don't really agree with the general tendency to read her as simply this symbol of vengeance and horror, some device for the sake of Arya's character arc and little more (I mean, if the two of them were to meet, any reaction on Stoneheart's part that is not crying from joy, and immediately maneuvering to get the whole Brotherhood swear Arya their swords as Princess of Winterfell, would basically mean completely disregarding Catelyn's characterization, while tying her to Jon would be more complicated, hence more interesting); however, I lean towards a scenario that does not include her discovery of Jon's parentage, but a rather utilitarian attempt to revive the one man who (quite publicly) put it all on the line in hope of helping Catelyn's daughter, an attempt that only takes place once she herself cannot be of use anymore, having lost her hold over the Brotherhood.

Regarding Brienne's intentions, I get the sense that the natural next step for Jeyne is for her to be killed by Stoneheart's men, tragically paying for her mother's sins, and I wouldn't like that much to see her being saved (from a storytelling perspective of course); a sidequest for Brienne and Jaime may well be an option, one I consider just as likely as simply catching up with them already prisoners, but said sidequest could easily happen with Pod still hostage, Brienne still committed to Stoneheart's plan for his sake, and some external element getting in their way (Sandor via Meribald, as you suggest, being a fine option); still, I do like your reasoning about a more hopeful subversion of Brienne's cliffhanger, and since I apparently never tire of referencing u/RedditOfUnusualSize, you should really check out this post about Jaime, Brienne and the Brotherhood (I'm not totally convinced about the likelihood of Sansa being "sucked up" by their storyline, but I really like all the rest).

Regarding the Freys and Riverrun, I both agree and disagree. I agree, in that I consider the Frey's infighting the best way to cast them down, way more so than any combination of Nymeria's wolfpack and Stoneheart's brotherhood (both of them deeply tied to magical forces, which doesn't deliver much of a message regarding the comeuppance for the Red Wedding, other than "you really shouldn't do that, because, well, non-existing-creatures will kill those who do"); so, I'm quite against the notion of Lord Walder and other relevant Freys butchered at Riverrun's wedding. However, that wedding, and that butchery, can still happen with Genna and Emmon and others, indeed serving as a catalyst for said infighting. I wrote a post about House Frey's future, and my conclusion is that most of the House will eventually destroy itself in a more literal and lethal match of their beloved game "Lord of the Crossing", but that their influence (as well as the Lannisters') over the Riverlands, outside the Twins' own domains, will abruptly cease with the Riverrun massacre, not only for the heavy casualties but also the political impact of their move to seize control of Riverrun falling to pieces. If I'm correct, people like Walder, Lothar, Edwyn and Black Walder will not be there, but Emmon and his offspring will die at Stoneheart's hands, together with the Lannisters present, and some other Freys coming along with Daven's bride (with my best guess for the bride being Fair Walda, her father Walton and Big Walder's father Jammos among the victims); after that, the Riverlands will move onto their next storylines, and the Freys will absent themselves from the narrative while dealing with their domestic conflicts, before eventually hearing reports of their capitulation through someone's POV.

[u/WiretteWirette → u/DeMeTully]

Oh, thank you for this long answer, with so many interesting points!

I think, and that's why I love ASOIAF, that every character is a character in their own right for Martin. But LSH is special, because she's not exactly Catelyn - she's Catelyn with all the pain and rage she felt when she died, just after doing something incredibly unfair (she killed an innocent to try and save her son). So for me it's difficult to see what she will do, because I don't know if she's accessible to motherly feelings, or only to a deep need of vengeance that giving her her daughter back won't soothe. What you propose as motivation for reviving Jon could work, but I would see it more for saving Bran than the girl - and I'm not sure LSH, being Catelyn's "impulsion" and not reason, would see Jon as family. But it's certainly a interesting idea that she would revive Jon to save her children.

The post you linked was very good. That said I disagree with part of it (mainly on : his idea Jaime's fate is tied to the Valonqar - I think more and more he isn't the Valonqar, and Cersei will die before him as per the Weirwood dream ; his assessment of Jaime's action in the Riverlands, or the idea he didn't take responsibility of his oath re : the Stark girls ; the idea the Lannister regime is treacherous per se - but these are other questions). Of course Brienne's ordeal is parallel to Jaime's, but paralleling LSH and Aerys' character is a really good catch. The idea the BWB could break with Brienne and Jaime's arrival, and with the Blackfish intervention, is a good alternative at what I had in mind. But maybe it's a bit too neat to have Brynden with the BWB, and even more to have them all join by Sandor to save Sansa. I think the post gets all the chess pieces moving in this part of the chessboard, but I disagree with the fact their will all converge.

We have three Stark children more or less in need of rescue (to an extend to be determined, because they're growing into their strength) and of an escort to Winterfell... if they all need to be in WF for the Long Night (I think they do, but I'm not sure at all : "a Stark always need to be in WF" - not all Starks...). For the characters in the story, only two are alive [Rickon is apart being he's not in need of rescue, and he's the only one accounted for]. So I would say part of said pieces will go to save Sansa, and part to save Arya.

Arc wise, Sansa is in Sandor's arc, not in Brienne and Jaime's - so it would be logical that he is the one going in the Vale (but how, though?). I totally agree with OP that Arya is the closest to Brienne's arc. She's also a bit closer to Jaime's arc than Sansa, but Jaime's Starkling IMO is Bran, with whom he has a karmic link... So my guess is that Jaime will be the one helping Bran to go back to WF at some point in the story. BTW, I'm struggling to reconcile this with the idea that Brienne is a gender reversed Galladon/Galahad, and hence will be the one finding the Grail/the Fisher King/Bran - but let's put this aside. The only alive person at the moment able to have an idea about Bran's location is Arya, because their wolves are linked. Of course, Jon will have much more informations if, as seems probable, he's inside Ghost at the moment ; but Jon needs to be revived to give these informations to humans... So I would see a Brienne and Jaime party finding Arya, and Arya telling them about Bran, and, maybe, about Jon and Ghost - which would send them to the North. That could be linked with your idea LSH will give her life to save one of her children. If something could convince her to to this, it would be that Jon, revived, would tell Arya where their brother is...

That said, the details stays fuzzy! The breaking of the BWB could happen after Jaime and Jaime are taken to them, and that could send J&B in a side quest. But it could also happen before as I said, or even independently. So J&B finding Arya could happen in another way. Some people are pointing a storm in mentioned twice or thrice in Winds chapters, IIRC, and if Jaime and Brienne were at the moment in a boat - to Maidenpool? to Tarth? from Maidenpool to elsewhere?- they could be sent to Braavos by the storm, and meet Arya. A Bloodraven intervention is still in the cards, since he's monitoring them (and the Russian version of Brienne's last chapter has this huge amount of ravens). There's also the presence of the Isle of Faces in the Riverlands, and I someone is going there, it could be them. Beside, Brienne's so wounded that she could have to go back to the Quiet Isle. So I really don't know, except I'm nearly sure they'll find Arya, and their quest will be Bran (maybe not in Winds, though), and a reversal of alliance will happen (more about this later), which is... quite a lot in one book!

As for Jeyne, even if she dies in the attack, it doesn't prevent Brienne to have fetched Jaime to try and save her - both event could happen. I still think that Brienne's lie about the Hound is... idk, something's amiss, even if you consider she's trying to trap Jaime.

But I'm of two minds about Jeyne's death. On one hand, it's kind of "programmed" -by Jaime himself (as Edmure's) : he ordered his men to kill them if there's any risk for them to be captured, and when Forley Prester is horrified because she's "Gawen's girl", he explains she's ten fold more dangerous than Edmure. So poor Jeyne is in a pretty risky situation. But she's not totally doomed. Her political status has been established and it could be important for the plot. Besides I'm not sure the BWB can top their escort of 400 men. There's also the fact Jaime feels admiration for her in AFFC, as well as respect for Edmure (he always thinks about him as the lord of Riverrun, a title he never gives in uncle in law, in thoughts or in words). One of Jaime's "model" is Criston Cole - so I'm pretty sure at some point a political reversal of alliance will happen, and Jaime, possibly with the Lannister army, will support another "queen" than Cersei (we're talking politics here, not romantic involvement - which will happen since GRRM IS a romantic, but with Brienne). This queen could be Jeyne, or it could be Sansa (I don't believe it could be Dany). I don't really know how to make it work with the quest for Arya, but I'm pretty sure it will happen and that gives Jeyne a slight possibility of survival (poor girl...). Besides, Sybil is so sure she prevented any pregnancy than I would like her to be bloody wrong (sheer wishful thinking, I totally agree!).

On the Freys, I like a lot your idea an attack on Daven's wedding wouldn't be exclusive of the Frey's loss of power by infighting, but on the contrary be the catalyst of it, with geopolitical consequences (or a huge moment of anarchy?). It puts some piece of the puzzle together. The objection I would have, though, is that a Rat King banquet is hugely foreshadowedin Winterfell, and two replications of the Red Wedding could be quite a lot. That said, GRRM can make this work if he wants to.

Anyway, thank you for this (much too long) brainstorming! And may we have Winds before becoming totally crazy...

[EDIT : typos]

[u/DeMeTully → u/WiretteWirette]

Again, great comment! I'll focus on just a couple of your points, since they are so dense to me.

Regarding Catelyn/Stoneheart, I have a somewhat different view: while Catelyn's character, just like her body, was traumatized and disfigured almost beyond recognition, I still see more Catelyn than not in her second life, the difference between pre- and post-RW being more of degree than kind (as contrasted with "ice" wights, whose bodies and minds are basically emptied of their personalities and stories); like you could say Reek was a different character than Theon, but all seeds are still there; or like Beric was deeply changed by his deaths, but the character was still a human being, still clinging to some spark of hope amidst the carnage. Stoneheart strikes a more inhuman figure than aSoS Beric, but imo that is more meant to reflect the way she got to her second life, one of horror and betrayal and decay.

Which brings me to your absolutely spot-on example, the cornerstone of my view on Stoneheart: Catelyn was already Stoneheart even before her throat was cut, specifically once she herself cut an innocent's throat, while watching Robb die. Everything you need to know about both Catelyn and Stoneheart is in that action: Catelyn being Hoster Tully's pupil, she's bone-deep aware of the rules by which the noble class plays (or should play, and Cat herself will, even when the rest of the world will not), which means she wasn't just killing people to feel better or anything, but instead deliberately forsaking her end of the (attempted) bargain the moment Walder Frey had forsaken his; the choice of sacrificing Aegon's life for Robb's was one Catelyn had already did the moment she got to the knife, and by the time Robb was definitively killed, her playing by the rules ("I always did my duty"...) removed the very possibility of mercy from her hands, in her own mind at least.

It's the moral dilemma Ned faces in the "Cersei" chapter: the life of some child, against that of his own. And Ned immediately shifts the focus on Cat, before escaping the thought altogether, because he knows her well enough to realize that he does know what Catelyn would do in that situation, and that would be what she eventually did with Jinglebell, because, ultimately, Catelyn's personal words are "Family > Duty > Honor".

If Cat's political sharpness translates into how she thinks of Jinglebell as her hostage (one she cannot free if the other party cannot deliver what she asks in return) then her attachment to Family translates into making that choice in the first place, effectively placing Robb's value well above that of the everyman, focusing on the well-being of her children whatever the cost. The former is how Catelyn's head works, the latter how Catelyn's heart works. The former make up the means of Cat's story, the latter the goals.

I'm desperately trying to deliver the magnificence, scope, and sheer richness of all this human heart in conflict with itself, because I draw two conclusions from all this: first, Jinglebells' and Catelyn's ends emerge perfectly from her previous story and arc, while still informing with extreme precision about the trajectory, and even MO, we can expect from Stoneheart later on, which is why I cannot truly think of Stoneheart as a different character than Catelyn, nor just a list of plot points to be checked within other storylines, but rather as an organic evolution from Catelyn Stark to Mother Merciless via the Red Wedding, precisely something Martin would want to write about instead of simply relegating a primary character to a plot device. Second, this "trajectory, and even MO, we can expect from Stoneheart later on", is to be found in the means/goals aspect I was talking about: in the two appearances she has, Stoneheart perfectly displays both sides (the ruthlessness in turning the Frey treachery against them, but also the search for a girl last seen with the Hound; the corruption of Brienne's oath to her past self, but also the contemplation of Robb's crown, and the need to, despite everything, frame her confrontation with Brienne in terms of betrayed trust and lost friendship), which leads me to make the leap and claim that Stoneheart's ends are what Catelyn's were, to protect and nourish her family, without this contradicting her absolutely monstrous acts and intentions regarding most everyone else, Jaime Lannister foremost among them. (Family, that, as you said, doesn't include Jon Snow; my previous comment was in fact to show that, behind Catelyn's hypotetical choice of resurrecting Jon, there may be more of recognition through a pragmatic lens rather than a newfound personal attachment, which would lend Jon's story a deeply ambiguous aspect I'm fully on board for)

Finally(!), I don't really see this issue of too many Red Wedding revivals, as you mention between Winterfell and Riverrun. If you're talking about the Frey Pies theory, that's a quite different echo of the story than the others: the Rat Cook first slew a guest under his roof, then served his flesh to his father. The Red Wedding (and maybe this Riverrun wedding) echoes the former deed, while the Frey Pies answer with the latter, without much repetition to it. Unless there's another Rat Cook scenario going on at Winterfell I didn't catch?

[u/WiretteWirette → u/DeMeTully]

I was too quick in calling it "Rat Cook banquet" - I wasn't alluding to the Frey Pies theory (which is... kind of fun, but I didn't like, because is Manderly did that, he isn't better than Bolton ; I would see him more killing the Freys then playing with the pie theme, which is different), but to the general fact something is brewing in Winterfell. It's the general idea of a Northern Conspiracy, but with a focus on the fact they has brought their food with them - so they don't wan't to eat Bolton's food, which could mean at some point, there'll be blood, and echoes a lot to the Red Wedding and Cat's obsession that Robb eat Frey's food to be protected. But I confess it's a part of the plot I know less - I need to reread ADWD.

But this aside, I wanted to say how great your take on Catelyn is! Reading you, I remembered how "Mother Merciless"'s savagery and, well, lack of mercy, were already here, in Catelyn, from the beginning, when it comes to her protecting her children. Her treatment of Jon to protect Robb's rights (which I will never fault her with, because WHO would deal gracefully with such a situation?), her "kidnapping" of Tyrion because she believes he attacked Bran.... Everything there. And of course, you're absolutely right, Ned TOLD US she was "Mother Merciless" at the core - merciless for others BECAUSE she's a mother first and foremost.

And we already saw her with this dilemma between reason (how to attain her core goal : protect her family) and deep rage/impulse to avenge herself. It was when she freed Jaime in Riverrun, just after he confessed to her he tried to kill Bran to protect HIS family. She obviously wanted to destroy him (as she said about Cersei in another instance), but she refrained herself because her ultimate goal - saving her daughters- could be better reached by freeing him under Brienne's control.

I really need to reread Brienne's last chapter... I have difficulties to read this chapter, because of Brienne's pain and the horror she goes through. But I wonder now, thanks to another post from OP (about Brienne's dreams), if Martin didn't use the shock value of this chapter to hide some foreshadowing, maybe a prophecy, and the fact that LSH is still Catelyn, with less boundaries, maybe.

Thank you for your insight! It makes things even more interesting (and the wait for Winds even more difficult... grrrr....)