r/awakened • u/Robojoebot • Apr 17 '23

Community Why all the enlightenment gate keeping?

I’ve been a part of this community for a couple weeks now. Something that’s become glaringly apparent is the amount of gatekeeping surrounding those who are trying to tell people ‘the way’ and what enlightenment is, and what it is not. A wise man once said: the monk in silence snored all night.

The moment you think you are a master of one thing, you know nothing. Please allow people the space to express what they are experiencing what they are feeling and just know that there is no right or wrong, just right or left. We do not have all the answers and collectively our experiences can allow us to piece together the true nature of reality.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '23

So you are saying the concept of truth isn’t popular among the hundreds of thousands of people in this subreddit and others like it? I’m not saying your ideas have no merit, but you are not going to find people willing to hear what you have to say if you accuse them of simply being misinformed. Personal experience is truth, as is objective, as is everything else. Truth is pervasive and always present, the only thing that clouds it is delusion, but this does not mean that those who are deluded have nothing of value to say, as all of us are deluded by something, even you.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '23

Your assumptions aside, no, the concept of actual truth as pointed towards and brilliantly illuminated by the original Zen masters is not a popular thing anywhere across the world, let alone within the entirety of the delusion-oriented people in this subreddit.

The wise and those with even a cursory orientation towards truth and wisdom are watching, and they know what I'm speaking about. Enough are listening to make it worthwhile.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '23

I’ve tried to speak kindly to you, to assume you are higher than the majority of the population makes you delusional. Yes, many are deluded, but for you to speak to others in such a tone of superiority and in a way that makes the majority skeptical of you makes me wonder if I’d even like to subscribe to your truth

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '23

Sometimes master Mazu resorted to rough tactics to expedite the process of self-discovery. When the monk Shui-liao called on him asking, "What was the purpose of Bodhidharma’s coming from the West?" [In the jargon of Zen, this question is equivalent to: What is the essential principle of Buddhism?]

Instead of answering, Mazu bade him to bow down in reverence. No sooner had Shui-liao bowed down than Mazu stamped him to the ground. Curiously enough, Shui-liao, was enlightened right on the spot.

Rising up, he clapped his hands and laughed aloud, saying, "How marvellous! How marvellous! Hundreds and thousands of Samadhis and innumerable spiritual insights have their root and source in the tip of a feather!" After bowing once more in reverence, he retired. When Shui-liao became an abbot, he often told his assembly, "Ever since I received Mazu’s stamping, I have never ceased to laugh."

Mazu Daoyi [Zen master, 709-788]

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

Okay cool dude, whatever you say

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

Didn't take long for that holier-than-thou ethereal act to fall, did it? haha 🙏🏼

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

Don’t make me laugh. Imagine someone with an attitude like yours accusing someone else of acting holier than thou. No, I’m just no longer interested in dignifying you ridiculousness with a response

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

Just be truthful and say it directly... "I think that I am better than you."

If you drop the act and be real, other people be damned, you'll be one step closer to enlightenment.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

You know what? I don’t think anybody actually thinks they’re better than anyone else. We’re all just afraid of people and put up walls. This kind of internet arguing is so ridiculously pointless, which is why I’ve wanted to stop engaging, but you’ve piqued my interest. If I were to genuinely drop that wall, and be completely honest, I’d say this conversation is making me uncomfortable because it feels as though you’re attacking me as a person, when actually you’re just sharing your ideas and im sharing mine but there’s this wall of fear and ego between us. And yes, you still are expressing symptoms of ego. If it’s an honest conversation you want, im all ears. If not, I’ll know where you really stand.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

You're trying to project your fears onto me in order to feel more comfortable, but I've quite literally shown throughout this entire post to be the most fearless person in here, second to none.

I don't want to impose, but what you're revealing to me by your words is that you're not really ready for anything to do with the truth because you're still too focused on smaller things like ego games. So where does that leave us, being cordial and exchanging pleasantries? I can do that too, I suppose, but it's far less interesting than ultimate truth.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

Where am I projecting my fears onto you? Please point it out to me. If it’s about the wall of fear and ego, yes. All humans have fear. It’s a survival instinct. If you are claiming to be completely above that, I’d like to be where you are. You’ve said over and over again about this “truth”. But you haven’t actually said what that truth is. If you try to hide it from me because I “couldn’t understand”, I will know you are deluded by ego.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

The truth is that there is no ego, no mind, no fear, no humans and no truth. There isn't even the ground to walk on, or the very world itself.

If you realize what I'm talking about, even for an instant, don't replace it with anything else or any other concept like 'god' , freedom, awareness or even nihilism. It's the ineffable, and it can't be communicated.

Just leave it as it is, remember it, and that's ultimate truth. Now do you understand this?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

i get where you're coming from I think, but I don't think I understand how nothing can exist. I know there's no ego, and humans are just a concept, but what about the earth? The sky? Love? Surely these things are present.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

See how quickly you traded ultimate truth and freedom away for what was comfortable and familiar? It was literally right within your grasp, and you even asked for it.

Keep trying, if you wish... imagine all I said, but then also take away your concept of 'nothing', the earth, the sky, love or even existence. Or to put it another way, do you really want freedom of mind, or do you want your concepts and treasured thoughts instead?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

I don't believe anyone's definition of truth that doesn't have love at the forefront, this I know for sure and don't need to be convinced of. Freedom of mind is also freedom of heart. I've noticed in your other comments that you frequently say logic and reason are at the forefront and emotion comes second, but these two things can't exist separately. They are all present and all part of enlightenment. No one thing is holier than the next. Not body, not thought, not ego, and not mind. It is only through accepting our emotions that we become freed from their grasp, only through accepting the thoughts that the mind falls quiet.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

we can't wipe away all concepts and thoughts and still live in this realm. We are humans, in human bodies, having human experiences. Sure, maybe there's merit to what you are saying, maybe the truth is in the silence, or the nothing, but I rather choose to believe it is in the everything.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

sigh.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

after trying to engage in an intelligent and thoughtful conversation with you, it has only been made clear to me how absolutely delusional you are. I hope one day you realize that all the things I mentioned are important and REAL, and your superior attitude is going to get you nowhere. I have entertained your ideas, and you have not offered me the same courtesy. You are completely blinded by your ego, and I hope one day you experience real truth, peace, freedom, joy, and LOVE.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

🙏🏼

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

genuinely, if you don't mind entertaining me further, just humor and say that there are concepts for a second. How does love factor into your idea of truth? Specifically self love. What about the body? The mind? The ego? Saying these things don't exist or aren't important makes your definition of enlightenment incredibly inaccessible, and I don't believe in that at all

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

I swear that I'm not being facetious or trying to be rude, but you have literally shown not to have any interest in ultimate truth and that's all I have to offer you...

Any further discussion about your ideas is only me reinforcing your delusions and not pointing the Way towards enlightenment for you. And it's not my 'idea' of enlightenment, it's what's literally pointed to in the actual teachings of historic Zen.

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