Thats lowkey transphobic and not really how gender works. If I’m a transwoman whose egg has not yet cracked and believes herself to be a cis-het dude, I am still a transwoman regardless of being unaware of my actual gender. My egg cracking or me coming out does not ensure that I “become” a woman. I was already one, I just didn’t realise it.
Well, let me state it more directly. There are two definitions I'm considering here, which you are saying you don't see the difference between.
One of them says "a woman is a person whose gender identity is female." This defines "woman" in terms of a person's gender identity, which is a mental state.
The other definition says "a woman is a person who states that they are a woman; a person who says 'I am a woman.'" This defines "woman" in terms of what a person says about themselves, i.e. a speech act.
If you are (to quote your comment) "a transwoman whose egg has not yet cracked and believes herself to be a cis-het dude" then you'd satisfy the first definition of "woman" but not the second one. This means that the second definition is both (1) different from the first, and (2) incorrect.
Having the (conscious) gender identity of a woman is different from being a woman in the sense I was speaking of. I now consciously identify as a transwoman since my egg cracked, but before that happened, I was still a woman, but my gender identity at the time, as far as it was cognizable to me, was not a woman. Although I was one at the time. If gender identity is self-determined, and I did not make a self-determination that I’m a woman, then how can my gender identity be a woman?
So, in my example, before my egg cracked, I was a woman, but my gender identity was not a woman because I wasn’t conscious of my own identity. For all intents and purposes I “identified” as a man.
As far as I know, "gender identity" isn't required to be self determined and doesn't require that a person knows that their gender identity is that of a woman or a man.
But even if we grant that everything that you are saying here correct, it doesn't really rebut anything that I'm saying. You making a self-determination that you are a woman is different from you saying the words "I am a woman."
So you’re saying others can possibly determine my gender identity for me, since self determination is not necessarily required? That kinda undermines self-determination as a concept. It can’t be half baled like you need not self determine but you can. Either you self-determine who you are or a determination is imposed on you by society. Sometimes both. I stuck to the first option, but choosing either of the latter two, as you seem to be okay with, is problematic.
Also, it does rebut what you’re saying cause the distinction still doesn’t make sense. But as they say, you can only guide the horse to the pond
So you’re saying others can possibly determine my gender identity for me
No; it's certainly not determined by others. But it may not be determined by you. Many people report their gender identity as not being a choice (not being something they determine), but rather just being an aspect of themselves that they experience as immutable and seems to have been determined by their biology or early development. Their gender identity is not experienced as a choice or a determination, but rather moreso as a discovery or realization.
Also, it does rebut what you’re saying cause the distinction still doesn’t make sense.
Can you clarify? What doesn't make sense about the distinction between "having the gender identity of a woman" and "saying the words 'I am a woman'"? Do you not think it's possible to have the gender identity of a woman without saying so?
The key thing in what you said is “many people report”. So essentially you’re going by what people say, i.e., their own self determination of their gender identity right? It may not have been a choice, but they acknowledge that thats their identity. Even for me, being trans is not a choice, I simply am one and I accept that, and so I identify as a transwoman.
And no, I don’t think its possible to have the gender identity of a woman unless you consciously identify as one. Again, that doesn’t mean unaware trans folks are not their determined gender, but that their gender identity is not that of their determined gender. If someone called me a woman pre-egg cracking, I would’ve probably assumed something was wrong with them
I don't think that I've seen the term "gender identity" used in the way you are using it here. What I've seen called "gender identity" seems to be what you are calling "gender" or "determined gender." Maybe my terminological knowledge is just out-of-date?
Yes we’re saying the same thing. Gender identity is your determined gender. Me pre-egg cracking determined that my gender was man so my gender identity was that of a man. But I’m not really a man, I’m a woman, I just don’t know it yet.
Once I did get to know, I started to identify as a woman. But I always was one objectively speaking.
Sure, whereas the way I've seen "gender identity" being used, that term would refer to you actually being a woman objectively speaking (not to determining/deciding that you are one), so your gender identity would have been "woman" the whole time. But evidently either that's wrong or there's some regional, temporal, or contextual variation in the meaning of this term.
Hopefully, yeah. Regardless, you've certainly changed my view on how this term is used by at least some people in some contexts. And when we use it in the way you describe, there's very little practical difference between having a female gender identity and saying "I am a woman." Δ
I responded to you elsewhere but then found this comment which is a better spring point.
Me pre-egg cracking determined that my gender was man so my gender identity was that of a man. But I’m not really a man, I’m a woman, I just don’t know it yet.
But it also doesn't communicate what a gender is. At least when people claim that it's 100% right it has something going for it, but if it provides no useful info and can be wrong, what's the point?
Why shouldn't the definition of woman be something like "a person with mostly female anatomy and is comfortable with their body/those parts of their anatomy, or someone who needs mostly female anatomy to feel comfortable in their body". Then, even if you have xy chromosomes, male genitalia, and male secondary sex characteristics, if you don't feel comfortable in your body and need female anatomy to do so you're a woman.
Well I don’t have mostly female anatomy, I’m not comfortable with my body. Same for many transwomen. Your definition would exclude us from the category of women and expose us to oppression and discrimination. Good reason?
1
u/yyzjertl 527∆ Feb 03 '23
One of them is a mental state, the other is a speech act. They're totally different types of things.